I like Goku becoming a child again in GT

[Cursed Lemon]

We wouldn't be talking about this decision if GT was actually good.

[Dbzfan94]

We wouldn't be talking about this decision if GT was actually good.

But GT is good.

[Forte224]

GT has a lot of problems, but Kid Goku isn't one of them. His design looks really nice too, even if he looks very different from how he looked in the early Dragon Ball arcs due to the shift in art style from then to GT. But the way he looked was a nice callback, while at the same time the different art style helped emphasize that he is indeed an adult in a child's body. Even though Goku has always retained his childlike qualities and his naivety, he DID mature over the course of the series.

I don't recall many people complaining about him being a kid. Unless they're on a roll ranting about GT and they need an "And another thing..." to keep the rant going.

[Cursed Lemon]

But GT is good.

At?

[Forte224]

Oh geez, I really hope this doesn't turn into another GT good or bad topic, those are never fun. It has nothing to do with the title, which is about one very specific aspect of GT.

[ruler9871]

I don't hate it per se, it was a gag concept that overstayed its welcome and felt stale after the black star Dragon Ball arc. I would have been fine if GT was written to have time gaps like Z and by the time he was fighting Baby, Cell, Freeza, Super 17, and the Shadow Dragons he was an adult again, especially with Pan and Uub being older and more seasoned fighters.

Much like the rest of GT, it was a neat idea that was let down by its execution.

Goku being an adult adds nothing to his character. People like to pretend that having Goku as an adult somehow adds nuances to his character when it's been shown time and time again that Toriyama intended for him to be a one-dimensional idiot who likes to fight strong people. The way Super portrays him even if it's a little exaggerated compared to DBZ. At least with kid Goku, you get the interesting and funny relationships he develops with his granddaughter and the rest of the Z family.

GT had 64 episodes. Can't expect there to be multiple timeskips like in Z. I liked the way they portrayed Pan. Uub could've been a bit stronger but he was never going to outshine Goku. What's he supposed to do that SS4 Goku can't? or in the case of Super, Ultra Instinct Goku? That's the problem with the huge power gap between Goku, Vegeta and everyone else. The only way to make characters like the humans relevant is to have them fighting fodder like in RoF.

1. "Goku being an adult adds nothing to his character".

And what actually does Goku turning into a kid again add to his character? Adult Goku in Z (especially in the anime version) displayed more range and gravity in his personality and actions than he ever did any of the other 3 series. And making him a kid again in GT took away much of what made Z Goku appealing (unless he's in SSJ4).

2. "People like to pretend that having Goku as an adult somehow adds nuances to his character when it's been shown time and time again that Toriyama intended for him to be a one-dimensional idiot who likes to fight strong people."

How in the world is this a good argument? This doesn't at all make GT kid Goku nor even Early DB kid Goku look good at all if you have to resort to the "Goku's mean't to be a dumb character anyway" argument.

3. "At least with kid Goku, you get the interesting and funny relationships he develops with his granddaughter and the rest of the Z family"

This could have actually been a thing, were it not for GT putting most of the cast out of the spotlight for 95% of the series (except Pan). And there was hardly anymore, nor any unique funny & interesting relationships that we didn't see in the other 3 shows.

4. "I liked the way they portrayed Pan"

You liked how GT made her a useless sidekick who only exists to get into trouble, steal attention away from the rest of the cast, get no character development and (as the writers themselves admitted) be a damsel in distress (which was why she never became a SSJ)?

[ruler9871]

But GT is good.

At?

I would say GT is average overall. Nowhere near among the worst anime ever, but still not any better than just average. Same with Super.

[Grimlock]

At?

At bringing other ideas to the table instead of being stuck in the same thing.

[sunsetshimmer]

But GT is good.

At?

It's good at being brave enough to turn main character into a kid, put Vegeta away and switch him to Pan-chan instead and making Trunks nothing like his very popular future self. Or simply trying to mimic first series despite DBZ being far more popular series. This is what makes GT different from Super that was so afraid of changes that after 6 years since Buu saga, Goten and Trunks didn't age at all. Now i don't want to talk about execution of both series as i don't want this topic to be another GT vs Super thing, but regardless of execution GT tried something and risked its ratings when Super took very simple solution which is even more visible in DBS Broly movie which was nothing more but putting 3 most popular characters into one story that fits with what is considered a 'canon'. Now, DBZ Battle of Gods tried something new and many people hated this movie when ressurection of Frieza and Broly's reboot with Gogeta got praised, especially the latter. This is why i respect BoG movie and consider it to be one of the best movies in franchise.

[ABED]

I don't hate it per se, it was a gag concept that overstayed its welcome and felt stale after the black star Dragon Ball arc. I would have been fine if GT was written to have time gaps like Z and by the time he was fighting Baby, Cell, Freeza, Super 17, and the Shadow Dragons he was an adult again, especially with Pan and Uub being older and more seasoned fighters.

Much like the rest of GT, it was a neat idea that was let down by its execution.

Goku being an adult adds nothing to his character. People like to pretend that having Goku as an adult somehow adds nuances to his character when it's been shown time and time again that Toriyama intended for him to be a one-dimensional idiot who likes to fight strong people. The way Super portrays him even if it's a little exaggerated compared to DBZ. At least with kid Goku, you get the interesting and funny relationships he develops with his granddaughter and the rest of the Z family.

GT had 64 episodes. Can't expect there to be multiple timeskips like in Z. I liked the way they portrayed Pan. Uub could've been a bit stronger but he was never going to outshine Goku. What's he supposed to do that SS4 Goku can't? or in the case of Super, Ultra Instinct Goku? That's the problem with the huge power gap between Goku, Vegeta and everyone else. The only way to make characters like the humans relevant is to have them fighting fodder like in RoF.

1. "Goku being an adult adds nothing to his character".

And what actually does Goku turning into a kid again add to his character? Adult Goku in Z (especially in the anime version) displayed more range and gravity in his personality and actions than he ever did any of the other 3 series. And making him a kid again in GT took away much of what made Z Goku appealing (unless he's in SSJ4).

2. "People like to pretend that having Goku as an adult somehow adds nuances to his character when it's been shown time and time again that Toriyama intended for him to be a one-dimensional idiot who likes to fight strong people."

How in the world is this a good argument? This doesn't at all make GT kid Goku nor even Early DB kid Goku look good at all if you have to resort to the "Goku's mean't to be a dumb character anyway" argument.

3. "At least with kid Goku, you get the interesting and funny relationships he develops with his granddaughter and the rest of the Z family"

This could have actually been a thing, were it not for GT putting most of the cast out of the spotlight for 95% of the series (except Pan). And there was hardly anymore, nor any unique funny & interesting relationships that we didn't see in the other 3 shows.

4. "I liked the way they portrayed Pan"

You liked how GT made her a useless sidekick who only exists to get into trouble, steal attention away from the rest of the cast, get no character development and (as the writers themselves admitted) be a damsel in distress (which was why she never became a SSJ)?

Are you actually arguing what made Goku interesting in Z was that he was an adult? I'm not seeing this greater range and gravity you see. He's the same as he always was.

Culling the cast down to the essential members: Goku, Pan, Trunks, Giru, and later Vegeta is a strength. Why keep a massive cast around if they aren't doing anything with them?

While I have issues with the execution, I don't have a problem with Pan "stealing" attention from the rest of the cast. The development was incomplete but it's there. She does mature over the course of the series.

[Tai Lung]

If they abandon it, it's because there was no other way to do it besides using the Black star DB's again which is a non-starter. Porunga couldn't help anymore than Shen Long.

porunga can simply gather the Black star Dragon balls again ...

Semantics in this case. I'm not talking pure battle power. Goku didn't have the energy to use either teleportation or SSJ3. The writers wanted to put limitations on a character who had become incredibly powerful. That's a good reason to do it.

I'm assuming English isn't your first language; it's hard to understand you.

Anyway, I didn't mean that.
I do not think it's a purpose, I already told you an example is not comparable to an excuse to delay the plot.
yep

[ruler9871]

Goku being an adult adds nothing to his character. People like to pretend that having Goku as an adult somehow adds nuances to his character when it's been shown time and time again that Toriyama intended for him to be a one-dimensional idiot who likes to fight strong people. The way Super portrays him even if it's a little exaggerated compared to DBZ. At least with kid Goku, you get the interesting and funny relationships he develops with his granddaughter and the rest of the Z family.

GT had 64 episodes. Can't expect there to be multiple timeskips like in Z. I liked the way they portrayed Pan. Uub could've been a bit stronger but he was never going to outshine Goku. What's he supposed to do that SS4 Goku can't? or in the case of Super, Ultra Instinct Goku? That's the problem with the huge power gap between Goku, Vegeta and everyone else. The only way to make characters like the humans relevant is to have them fighting fodder like in RoF.

1. "Goku being an adult adds nothing to his character".

And what actually does Goku turning into a kid again add to his character? Adult Goku in Z (especially in the anime version) displayed more range and gravity in his personality and actions than he ever did any of the other 3 series. And making him a kid again in GT took away much of what made Z Goku appealing (unless he's in SSJ4).

2. "People like to pretend that having Goku as an adult somehow adds nuances to his character when it's been shown time and time again that Toriyama intended for him to be a one-dimensional idiot who likes to fight strong people."

How in the world is this a good argument? This doesn't at all make GT kid Goku nor even Early DB kid Goku look good at all if you have to resort to the "Goku's mean't to be a dumb character anyway" argument.

3. "At least with kid Goku, you get the interesting and funny relationships he develops with his granddaughter and the rest of the Z family"

This could have actually been a thing, were it not for GT putting most of the cast out of the spotlight for 95% of the series (except Pan). And there was hardly anymore, nor any unique funny & interesting relationships that we didn't see in the other 3 shows.

4. "I liked the way they portrayed Pan"

You liked how GT made her a useless sidekick who only exists to get into trouble, steal attention away from the rest of the cast, get no character development and (as the writers themselves admitted) be a damsel in distress (which was why she never became a SSJ)?

Are you actually arguing what made Goku interesting in Z was that he was an adult? I'm not seeing this greater range and gravity you see. He's the same as he always was.

Culling the cast down to the essential members: Goku, Pan, Trunks, Giru, and later Vegeta is a strength. Why keep a massive cast around if they aren't doing anything with them?

While I have issues with the execution, I don't have a problem with Pan "stealing" attention from the rest of the cast. The development was incomplete but it's there. She does mature over the course of the series.

1. No, I never said making Goku an adult made him interesting (Kid Goku in Early DB was cool, its his GT version that sucked). And speaking of range and gravity: https://youtu.be/RoQEXsgVdho

Tell me, when has Kid Goku in GT or even Early DB ever shown that level of character? And that's just one scene, there are others like it throughout Z.

2. And that trimmed down cast of essential characters accomplished nothing for GT's story, either in terms of development or even being useful as fighters.

3. The problems with Pan in GT are nearly the same as those with Sakura from the Naruto franchise, and both are largely hated by the fandom in the same way.

[ABED]

Tell me, when has Kid Goku in GT or even Early DB ever shown that level of character? And that's just one scene, there are others like it throughout Z.

What does that even mean? Did Goku not show a level of gravity when he fought Piccolo Daimao?

2. And that trimmed down cast of essential characters accomplished nothing for GT's story, either in terms of development or even being useful as fighters.

And that expanded cast often did little but wait for Goku to save the day. Trunks was necessary to pilot the ship. Giru was necessary to get the DB's and brought Baby to their attention. There was fun banter between Goku, Trunks, and Pan.

I have never nor will ever see Naruto, so that reference is lost on me.

Kid Goku in Early DB was cool, its his GT version that sucked

He's not actually a kid! This point can't be stressed enough, and it's one that seems lost on you. If there's a lack of gravity, it's not because he's a kid. He's an adult in the body of a child.

[ABED]

If they abandon it, it's because there was no other way to do it besides using the Black star DB's again which is a non-starter. Porunga couldn't help anymore than Shen Long.

porunga can simply gather the Black star Dragon balls again ...

Semantics in this case. I'm not talking pure battle power. Goku didn't have the energy to use either teleportation or SSJ3. The writers wanted to put limitations on a character who had become incredibly powerful. That's a good reason to do it.

I'm assuming English isn't your first language; it's hard to understand you.

Anyway, I didn't mean that.
I do not think it's a purpose, I already told you an example is not comparable to an excuse to delay the plot.
yep

You're not doing any better of a job explaining your point. Porunga gathering the DB's is probably on par with wishing for more wishes. I doubt it's possible.

It IS a purpose, it was explicitly its purpose. Again, you're hard to understand. It wasn't an excuse to delay the plot. It was a limit to Goku's power. Good writing puts obstacles in the path of characters achieving their goals.

[Tai Lung]

If they abandon it, it's because there was no other way to do it besides using the Black star DB's again which is a non-starter. Porunga couldn't help anymore than Shen Long.

porunga can simply gather the Black star Dragon balls again ...

Semantics in this case. I'm not talking pure battle power. Goku didn't have the energy to use either teleportation or SSJ3. The writers wanted to put limitations on a character who had become incredibly powerful. That's a good reason to do it.

I'm assuming English isn't your first language; it's hard to understand you.

Anyway, I didn't mean that.
I do not think it's a purpose, I already told you an example is not comparable to an excuse to delay the plot.
yep

You're not doing any better of a job explaining your point. Porunga gathering the DB's is probably on par with wishing for more wishes. I doubt it's possible.

It IS a purpose, it was explicitly its purpose. Again, you're hard to understand. It wasn't an excuse to delay the plot. It was a limit to Goku's power. Good writing puts obstacles in the path of characters achieving their goals.

porunga can transport several strong characters to another planet, I do not see why not do it with dragon balls.
Pan mentioned the simply reuniting them since they would have another year for that, trunks refused this because I did not want to do it again.
I've already said it seems more convenience to me and not a purpose. Incidentally Gotenks did not have that problem for being small.

[ABED]

The DB's couldn't kill the Saiyans and don't you think it would be cheating if the DB's could gather another group of DB's?

Okay, I get what Pan and Trunks said, but that just means they didn't want to have to gather the DB's again. That's not dropping the story. It's the conclusion. Goku realizes he's willing to stay as he is and not put the world in danger.

I've already said it seems more convenience to me and not a purpose. Gotenks did not have that problem for being small.

Gotenks could never teleport and turning SSJ3 does cut down on the fusion time. And you would be wrong that it's not a purpose. It's narratively inconvenient if Goku can't teleport. I can't wrap my head around why you don't think it's not a purpose, or what that even means. I thought I did, but I'm probably wrong

I know I'm sounding like a broken record and I'm not doing this to be a dick, but I have real trouble understanding you. Your writing is unclear.

[MyVisionity]

Tell me, when has Kid Goku in GT or even Early DB ever shown that level of character? And that's just one scene, there are others like it throughout Z.

What does that even mean? Did Goku not show a level of gravity when he fought Piccolo Daimao?

*A* level of gravity, yes. The level of gravity he showed as an adult in the Z-era? No.

[Cursed Lemon]

It's good at being brave enough to turn main character into a kid, put Vegeta away and switch him to Pan-chan instead and making Trunks nothing like his very popular future self. Or simply trying to mimic first series despite DBZ being far more popular series. This is what makes GT different from Super that was so afraid of changes that after 6 years since Buu saga, Goten and Trunks didn't age at all. Now i don't want to talk about execution of both series as i don't want this topic to be another GT vs Super thing, but regardless of execution GT tried something and risked its ratings when Super took very simple solution which is even more visible in DBS Broly movie which was nothing more but putting 3 most popular characters into one story that fits with what is considered a 'canon'. Now, DBZ Battle of Gods tried something new and many people hated this movie when ressurection of Frieza and Broly's reboot with Gogeta got praised, especially the latter. This is why i respect BoG movie and consider it to be one of the best movies in franchise.

At bringing other ideas to the table instead of being stuck in the same thing.

Making changes in and of itself is not a virtue if those changes have no support in the execution. The execution matters because this isn't a question of "did GT try something different", it's "what did GT do well".

Nevermind the fact that GT didn't actually do something different, it just cherrypicked the worst aspects of both DB and Z.

[ABED]

Tell me, when has Kid Goku in GT or even Early DB ever shown that level of character? And that's just one scene, there are others like it throughout Z.

What does that even mean? Did Goku not show a level of gravity when he fought Piccolo Daimao?

*A* level of gravity, yes. The level of gravity he showed as an adult in the Z-era? No.

The stakes were higher. I fail to see how that's reflective of the character.

[Grimlock]

Making changes in and of itself is not a virtue if those changes have no support in the execution. The execution matters because this isn't a question of "did GT try something different", it's "what did GT do well".

Nevermind the fact that GT didn't actually do something different, it just cherrypicked the worst aspects of both DB and Z.

I was not taking execution into consideration, obviously. As it had many flaws and much was left to be desired. And Dragon Ball GT did a couple of things well, it aged the characters, there was a sense of progression due to that and to the sagas being well connected with each other, leading to one another, it had the balls to kill permanently one of the "protagonists", it brought some content, trying something different is doing something well.

I don't know how "cherrypicking" Tsufurujins and turning the dragon balls evil can be worse than tournaments, this is one of the worst aspect of Dragon Ball.