What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:19 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:13 pmThe four heroes aren't lying on the floor in their own blood. They are triumphant. Vegeta didn't get away. The heroes let him leave. It's certainly one of the darkest arcs, but it's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Gohan isn't unable to move because he's battered. Gohan is tired after having transformed and changed back. The only one who can't move of his own volition is Goku.
They're all still pretty wrecked at the end though. The end of that fight starts getting more towards who can even stand up and throw an attack than anything else, it got that drawn out!

User avatar
PremiumSalt
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:58 pm

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by PremiumSalt » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:29 pm

I think in terms of tone, the Cell Arc is the darkest the series ever got. Little to no comedy, the story takes itself 100% seriously (which I think is largely to the arcs detriment), and there's some very distributing bits.
Dragon Ball Arc Rankings: 1. Piccolo Daimaō 2. Saiyan 3. 22nd Budōkai 4. 23rd Budōkai 5. Hunt For the Dragon Balls 6. Zamasu 7. Moro 8. Tournament of Power 9. 21st Budōkai 10. Broly 11. Battle of Gods 12. Boo 13. U6 Tournament 14. Freeza 15. Red Ribbon Army 16. Artificial Humans/Cell 17.Golden Freeza
Kunzait_83 wrote:No matter what twisted pretzel logic you contort yourself into to try and convince yourself otherwise, Raditz landing on Earth is the middle of the fucking story. Zero context, zero setup. Its in NO way meant to be seen as a "beginning point" for ANYTHING other than the next story arc. It flows precisely and fluidly from where things left off in the aftermath of the 23rd Budokai and mostly hits the ground running from there without really stopping to look back. You're plopping someone into the middle of a book starting at chapter 195 out of 519 for absolutely no good goddamn reason, with very minimal opportunity to look back at much needed context and character/story growth.

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:31 pm

PremiumSalt wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:29 pm I think in terms of tone, the Cell Arc is the darkest the series ever got. Little to no comedy, the story takes itself 100% seriously (which I think is largely to the arcs detriment), and there's some very distributing bits.
Clinkenbeard's performance as 18 is getting sucked into Cell is truly terrifying.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20282
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by ABED » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:47 pm

KBABZ wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:19 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:13 pmThe four heroes aren't lying on the floor in their own blood. They are triumphant. Vegeta didn't get away. The heroes let him leave. It's certainly one of the darkest arcs, but it's not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be. Gohan isn't unable to move because he's battered. Gohan is tired after having transformed and changed back. The only one who can't move of his own volition is Goku.
They're all still pretty wrecked at the end though. The end of that fight starts getting more towards who can even stand up and throw an attack than anything else, it got that drawn out!
They're certainly worse for wear, but it's not this blood bath he made it out to be. It's absolutely a moment of triumph. They defeated their toughest foe ever and the reason he got away is because they allowed him because Goku assured his friend he would be able to win a rematch.

A good argument could be made for the Freeza and Saiyan arc, but I still think the Piccolo Daimao arc feels the darkest. There's a feeling of dread that hangs over the entire arc that I just didn't feel in the Freeza arc.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Paulo Gabriel
Banned
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:28 am

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by Paulo Gabriel » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:41 am

sunsetshimmer wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:00 am
Paulo Gabriel wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:50 pm I haven't watch much of Super. So, in the original run (1986-1995), what do you think is the darkest arc in the series?
*1986-1997

It's either Frieza or King Piccolo saga. Can't see other possibilites.
I am not counting GT. Sorry if that wasn't explicit enough.

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:47 am

Paulo Gabriel wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:41 am I am not counting GT. Sorry if that wasn't explicit enough.
I think "Darkest arc in the manga storyline" would have worked much better!

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 4322
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Dragon World
Contact:

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by emperior » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:08 am

It seems like there’s no consensus here.
I would argue that, in its own, each arc from the Piccolo Daimao one onwards has some darker elements than the others.
I always considered the Androids arc (starting from Freeza coming to Earth up until Cell’s defeat) to be the “darkest”.
Rationally, it probably isn’t, but I always had a sense of unease when watching or reading it, and the Future Trunks TV Special (which I consider part of the arc) always helped selling the idea of what things would have been were they not to succeed into getting rid of the threat of the Androids.
But thinking about it, I say that in my opinion there’s not an arc in the original manga which can be unanimously considered to be the darkest one.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

What I consider canonical

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:34 am

emperior wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:08 am It seems like there’s no consensus here.
That's how opinions work!

User avatar
sunsetshimmer
I Live Here
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:34 pm
Location: Poland/Equestria

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:35 am

Paulo Gabriel wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:41 am
sunsetshimmer wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:00 am
Paulo Gabriel wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:50 pm I haven't watch much of Super. So, in the original run (1986-1995), what do you think is the darkest arc in the series?
*1986-1997

It's either Frieza or King Piccolo saga. Can't see other possibilites.
I am not counting GT. Sorry if that wasn't explicit enough.
Yet you talk about anime i suppose (manga didn't start in 1986) and GT was part of anime original run in every possible way.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

User avatar
Bryesque
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:39 am
Contact:

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by Bryesque » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:58 am

I'd have to go with either the Piccolo Daimao or Saiyan arc... "Dark" is kind of subjective. I mean, the Freeza, Cell, and Buu arcs had increasingly-high stakes and body counts, but they also happened when the audience was used to that sort of thing, so it didn't hit quite as hard.

The Piccolo Daimao arc was the first time things got really serious. Krillin's murder was absolutely devastating, and the deaths of Roshi and Chiaotzu, and Piccolo's truly overwhelming power and evil, really made that arc feel desperate. Resurrections weren't a "thing" yet, so everything felt very real in a way they'd never capture again. That, to me, felt darker than most of what came after.

The Saiyan arc took that level of desperation even higher, and even though we knew anyone killed could come back to life, the violence and deaths were just so brutal that it felt hopeless all the same. It was an extremely desperate battle for survival that didn't really let up at all. By comparison, the Freeza, Cell, and Buu arcs (especially in the anime) felt more drawn-out and had little diversions here and there that released a little tension, so they didn't hit quite as hard for me.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by sintzu » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:28 pm

I think the Saiyan arc was the darkest. 4 of the 7 z fighters died in very brutal ways. Goku literally had every bine in his body broken before even slowing Vegeta down. Everything they threw at Vegeta backfired on them. They just got lucky when he didn't calculate where Gohan would fall or otherwise they would've been finished. I think it's the only arc where every main hero is either dead or nearly dead and they survive by pure luck.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:19 pm

sintzu wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:28 pm I think the Saiyan arc was the darkest. 4 of the 7 z fighters died in very brutal ways. Goku literally had every bine in his body broken before even slowing Vegeta down. Everything they threw at Vegeta backfired on them. They just got lucky when he didn't calculate where Gohan would fall or otherwise they would've been finished. I think it's the only arc where every main hero is either dead or nearly dead and they survive by pure luck.
Especially by the end, there's a feeling of everyone, literally EVERYONE, scraping together one last bit of energy trying to defeat their opponent. It's like you've run out of ki, so you go get a gun. Okay now you're out of bullets so throw some sticks. Okay now you're out of sticks so you have to resort to bloody rocks. Oh crap he's STILL not dead!

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20282
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by ABED » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:32 pm

Vegeta was just as bad off as the rest of them. He didn't lose just because Gohan fell on him. It's erroneous to say they win by sheer luck. Vegeta couldn't get out of the way because he had no energy left. The kienzan he threw to cut off Gohan's tail was the last of his energy. Everyone, hero and villain alike are at their limits.

If anything, it's luck that Goku defeated Piccolo Daimao. He was very lucky that Piccolo left him one working arm. It was a miscalculation that cost him, so much so, that he tried to remedy it in the rematch. However, he doesn't count on Goku thinking of it as well.

The Saiyan arc does a great job of building up suspense and delivering. However, I just don't feel the sense of dread in it I feel in the Piccolo Daimao arc, even knowing how it all turns out this many years later.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 4386
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:54 am

Piccolo, easily.

Pilaf arc was basically a serialised adventure version of Dr. Slump.
21st Tenkaichi was about mastering yourself, becoming the best, mastering the art of fighting, spirituality, friendships, etc.
Red Ribbon cast something of a shadow over this whole deal, with us getting the first real death in the run. And basically from that point, that arc stopped being "Whacky shenanigans as Goku competes to get the balls", and became a struggle to revive the father of a newly-orphaned kid who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
But, it was hopeful. Pretty much from the word go, the Dragon Balls were an option.
22nd Tenkaichi, the journey of the indoctrinated Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu into becoming honourable warriors on a rigtheous path. Yes, they started out kind of being dickheads, but they realised the error of their ways, and forged new friendships with the main cast.

Up to this point, even in its darkest moments, Dragon Ball had had a strong sense of hope. Then Piccolo came along.
First up, major whiplash as we go from celebrations to Goku crying over his best friend's corpse. He has a fit of uncharacteristic rage, seeks his revenge, and fails. Pretty much at every turn, everything goes wrong here; everything you'd learned to expect from Dragon Ball by this point was subverted in horrifying, dark fashion.
New villain is introduced, and rather than being the guy they deal with for a while who does some token evil deeds then is defeated, this guy absolutely dominates the earth, kills off so many people (many of whom, we see die; that image of the corpse floating down the river is forever burned into my mind after how shocking it was to see as a kid), he beats Goku half to death, Roshi dies, Chiaotzu dies, Tenshinhan is brought to the edge of death...
Piccolo gets to the point of nearing his goal, and we're poised for the grand battle that stops him, or maybe just manoeuvre like in the Pilaf arc of someone stealing the wish... But he gets his wish. He wins. Then he bloody kills the dragon. No more revivals.

Piccolo was the last time Dragon Ball's Toriyama run had a serious, marked change in direction you can point to. Like every Dragon Ball arc in the orignial run, it builds on what came before, but Piccolo's unique way of building on what came before was to subvert everything you know, centred on a brutal villain with the will and the means to kill everyone. And he pretty much does. He's horrifyingly brutal, the acts he does are shocking, and he pretty much accomplishes his mission.

By the end of the Piccolo arc, Goku has won, but at what cost? So many people are already dead, and Goku's barely standing. Even when God gives them an option to revive everyone, he makes it clear this is just a stopgap; yes, there's a way out of this, but Piccolo isn't even dead after all they've gone through.

The Piccolo arc was the first time Dragon Ball really went into truly hopeless territory, and it stayed there for quite a while. Every time it gives you an ounce of hope, it subverts it and it's made clear just how wrong you were for taking that bit of hope; maybe Kuririn's death will be avenged? No, Goku gets his ass kicked. Maybe Roshi will succeed in trapping Piccolo? No, he dies instead. Maybe they'll wish everyone back? No, Piccolo killed the dragon. Maybe God can make everything right? No, Piccolo's still goddamn alive!!

The Saiyan and Freeza arcs do build on what Piccolo started, but nothing is as shocking, dark, and horrifying as Piccolo is the first time you see it. Saiyan and Freeza are intense, but I'd argue far more hopeful, far more colourful, and in a lot of ways, far more predictable given the somewhat new status quo Piccolo had brought about, even if the Raditz encounter is pretty much a complete gut-punch.

Androids/Cell has its moments of sheer horror, but it's only really moments, not the entire arc being built around hopelessness. Hell, Trunks's time machine literally says HOPE!! on it. Boo also has its horror moments, but is more interested in being a deconstruction/parody of itself rather than go all in on horror/darkness. Arguably it's more subversive than Piccolo, but it's not anywhere close to being as dark or hopeless. The Ultimate Dragon Balls arc is more of a fun adventure throwback, Baby has some shocking moments, but doesn't really stick the landing all that strongly, Super #17 also had some real shockers, but the arc itself was mostly just dumb fanservice. Evil Dragons was pretty dark and hopeless, somewhat refreshingly so after the Boo-Super #17 runs, but Piccolo is still king.

Arguably the Piccolo arc is even hopeless to a fault; I've seen at least one person suggest the Piccolo arc really hasn't aged well, because if you go back and rewatch it having already seen it and knowing its twists and such, there's really not much to it other than its rather intense darkness; Piccolo's not a particularly complex villain when he first shows up, somewhat like Freeza, but without the colourful array of henchmen and the intrigue of the struggle for the Dragon Balls on Namek.
I think it does still hold up; shocking imagery like Goku cradling Kuririn's corpse, the body floating down the river, unsettling moments like... Well, pretty much every scene Roshi has during this arc; Piccolo's return hardens him, almost turns him cold. And I haven't even mentioned how great the performances, the music, the designs, etc. are... It's like they took the demonic imagery from Sleeping Princess and decided to play it straight this time, to great effect.

Love it or hate it, I think Piccolo really is the darkest arc of Dragon Ball, for its sheer hopelessness, and unrelenting subversion. It's kind of like Dragon Ball's Infinity War.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:52 am

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:54 am New villain is introduced, and rather than being the guy they deal with for a while who does some token evil deeds then is defeated, this guy absolutely dominates the earth, kills off so many people (many of whom, we see die; that image of the corpse floating down the river is forever burned into my mind after how shocking it was to see as a kid)
I think this latter part is one many skip over. It's easy to forget, but pretty much all the victims we see are named characters who we've encountered in a previous, much more light-hearted arc, and while unlikable would certainly not be described as evil. Bacterian? Dead. Giran? Dead. King Chappa? Dead. Goku's friend Nam? DEAD.

I also feel like it's worth mentioning that, especially in the anime, the Daimao arc is the only one to directly evoke Hiroshima imagery rather than just generic explosions and dust clouds. Go back and watch the moment with Suno tending to the old lady and try telling me that isn't supposed to be anything other than a nuclear explosion.
Robo4900 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:54 amMaybe Roshi will succeed in trapping Piccolo? No, he dies instead.
I think this can be summed up even better: "Maybe Roshi has a secret technique up his sleeve? Yes, but it'll kill him. Well maybe it'll work? No, he misses and dies for nothing. Maybe Goku can get a power up? Yes but he's facing almost certain death, and goes through excruciating pain just ingesting the stuff.
Robo4900 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:54 amthe music
This is one particular area I take issue with. The music is fantastic of course and Piccolo's theme is one of Dragon Ball's most recognizable, alongside the Nimbus and Mystical Adventure themes. However I think the reliance on Piccolo's theme means that you grow tired of it, especially in the 23rd TB where these cues are used again for Jr.

Speaking of which, this reminds me that this is ALSO the arc where Goku loses his Flying Nimbus, this time for good. It grounds Goku in a very real way, almost like breaking his leg (foreshadowing...?), and it can easily be seen as a metaphor regarding his loss of innocence. And for me personally, it also represents that Goku at that point is no longer worthy of using it: at that point in time, Goku is thinking purely of vengeance and hatred, certainly not thoughts befitting someone pure of heart, and so he loses it soon after.

More than that, though, this culminates in what I think is the franchise's greatest musical moment. From the start of this arc, practically all of the music has been somber, dramatic and tense, with no presence of the happy themes. The last time you heard it was when Goku was flying back after resurrecting Bora. So for Goku to get his second Nimbus and set off to face Daimao backed with the classic Nimbus theme... it lifts the heart, and is the first time the arc has had a genuine sense of hope about it.
Robo4900 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:54 amLove it or hate it, I think Piccolo really is the darkest arc of Dragon Ball, for its sheer hopelessness, and unrelenting subversion. It's kind of like Dragon Ball's Infinity War.
You could make a very good argument that the two stories have coincidental but strong parallels. They both start with the bad guy('s henchmen) showing up and killing off a beloved character who's been around since practically the beginning for a gem he had on him. The other character there, Thor/Goku, goes off to find a way to defeat this villain while his friends try to hold the line and defend the other gems they've collected. The climactic battle ensues in or in the vicinity of a powerful capital, then the absentee shows up to kick butt. And in both, the villain is able to get the gems off the heroes ANYWAY and use what they set out to use them for and then leave. I guess the only real difference is that in Infinity War, the Avengers lose badly while Goku gets the victory, but either way the villain is available for a rematch encounter.

This of course makes the 23rd TB Dragon Ball's Endgame, paving the way to Z being Phase... 5? :?

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 4386
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:07 am

KBABZ wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:52 am You could make a very good argument that the two stories have coincidental but strong parallels. They both start with the bad guy('s henchmen) showing up and killing off a beloved character who's been around since practically the beginning for a gem he had on him. The other character there, Thor/Goku, goes off to find a way to defeat this villain while his friends try to hold the line and defend the other gems they've collected. The climactic battle ensues in or in the vicinity of a powerful capital, then the absentee shows up to kick butt. And in both, the villain is able to get the gems off the heroes ANYWAY and use what they set out to use them for and then leave. I guess the only real difference is that in Infinity War, the Avengers lose badly while Goku gets the victory, but either way the villain is available for a rematch encounter.

This of course makes the 23rd TB Dragon Ball's Endgame, paving the way to Z being Phase... 5? :?
I would disagree with some aspects of this... Infinity War ends when Thanos has collected the gems, and done the deed. I would love to take the comparison further, but I think to do such a comparison justice, we'd have to wait until Endgame's been around so we have the whole story. If we match things up as the snap matching up to Piccolo getting his wish and killing Shen Long, the similarities go a lot deeper than if we try to match the end of IW to the end of the Piccolo Daimao arc, so we'll see if Endgame matches up with the second half of that storyline.

There is an underlying point here; the reason Thanos and Piccolo are such shocking, subversive, horrifying, interesting villains from a narrative perspective is because they break all the rules.
Thanos doesn't feel like he's got the reality-bending gems because he's able to use all these weird powers to do crazy stuff, he feels like he's got reality-bending gems because he's breaking the rules of how Marvel movies work; the heroes are doing exactly what always works on their villains in their solo stories, they're making the sacrifices, they're having their personal growth, the whole shebang... But it doesn't work. Thanos plows through them anyway. He feels like he's got these reality-warping gems because he breaks the Marvel universe on a meta-level.

Similarly, Piccolo feels like a lovecraftian demon who outmatches any mortal who'd dare face him, because he breaks all the rules. Unfortunately, this is rather undercut in the end when Goku takes the ultra-divine plot contrivance, but in a way that does work narratively; Piccolo has kind of cheated his way up to being this unstoppable force, so the only way Goku can stand a chance is by cheating himself, and nearly destroying himself in the process. It's like what Roshi tried to do when using the Mafuba, only Goku succeeds. (For reference, I'd say Roshi's failed Mafuba is essentially equivalent to Thor not going for the head; the idea was sound, but unfortunately, it all went horribly wrong)
Though, in hindsight, it would have probably worked better if Goku had learned some kind of Kaioken-esque technique to do this. But then again, he does exactly that in the Saiyan arc.

The more I think about it, the more the Saiyan and Freeza arcs feel like Toriyama taking a second and third swing at what the Piccolo arc was trying to do, but done in a different way, with some shuffled around, abbreviated beats, and of course in a post-Piccolo world (and later, in a post-Saiyan world), the story just isn't as shocking. (Unless you skip over Piccolo, of course, but why would anyone do that? :roll:)

Though you'll probably see this with anything interesting Dragon Ball tries, if you look into it; everyone's favourite character, Vegeta, was basically a second swing at what the reincarnated form of my favourite character Piccolo was, who was basically a second, darker, edgier second swing at the underdog favourite character Tenshinhan, but over a longer timescale. And even Tenshinhan was arguably an idea seeded earlier on in Kuririn, who followed on from Yamcha and Oolong, who arguably stemmed out from how Bulma started off when she first met Goku (in terms of her being a somewhat selfish, arrogant prick tricking Goku into helping her for her own ends).
I guess that's just good storytelling; everything is building on what was already there, so everything feels precedented. And Dragon Ball's continuous, long-running, off-the-seat-of-Toriyama's-pants nature just means this process of building on what's already there arguably just goes deeper than one would expect as a casual obserer.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:22 am

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:07 am I would disagree with some aspects of this... Infinity War ends when Thanos has collected the gems, and done the deed. I would love to take the comparison further, but I think to do such a comparison justice, we'd have to wait until Endgame's been around so we have the whole story. If we match things up as the snap matching up to Piccolo getting his wish and killing Shen Long, the similarities go a lot deeper than if we try to match the end of IW to the end of the Piccolo Daimao arc, so we'll see if Endgame matches up with the second half of that storyline.
True, but regardless I feel that loses the Goku/Thor parallel (because that's SOOOOO important!).
Robo4900 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:07 amThe more I think about it, the more the Saiyan and Freeza arcs feel like Toriyama taking a second and third swing at what the Piccolo arc was trying to do, but done in a different way, with some shuffled around, abbreviated beats, and of course in a post-Piccolo world (and later, in a post-Saiyan world), the story just isn't as shocking. (Unless you skip over Piccolo, of course, but why would anyone do that? :roll:)
No joking, when I first saw the moment Piccolo blow up Central City (which, as a reminder, I didn't catch until a couple of years ago thanks to Cartoon Network screwing me over and me remaining spoiler-free because nobody likes to talk about Dragon Ball outside of this site), I flat-out said "HOLY SHIT, THIS IS BASICALLY Z NOW". In a way it's very similar to Vegeta using the Final Flash on Cell, and not just because both don't work!
Robo4900 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:07 amThough you'll probably see this with anything interesting Dragon Ball tries, if you look into it; everyone's favourite character, Vegeta, was basically a second swing at what the reincarnated form of my favourite character Piccolo was, who was basically a second, darker, edgier second swing at the underdog favourite character Tenshinhan, but over a longer timescale. And even Tenshinhan was arguably an idea seeded earlier on in Kuririn, who followed on from Yamcha and Oolong, who arguably stemmed out from how Bulma started off when she first met Goku (in terms of her being a somewhat selfish, arrogant prick tricking Goku into helping her for her own ends).
I guess that's just good storytelling; everything is building on what was already there.
Now I want to see someone do art of Bulma holding up Yamcha holding up Krillin... until we get to Vegeta and, possibly, Jiren.

User avatar
Robo4900
I Live Here
Posts: 4386
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:24 pm
Location: In another time and place...

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:51 am

KBABZ wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:22 am True, but regardless I feel that loses the Goku/Thor parallel (because that's SOOOOO important!).
I think it's better to focus on narrative parallels rather than rigidly fitting one character from each story into the role of another character; broad strokes, rough ideas of the kind of character arcs used, etc. with some more specific stuff like "In this scene, Goku essentially take's Thor's role" and of course, Piccolo basically being Thanos.
You can still say that Goku has a parallel with Thor's character arc in Infinity War, but that doesn't mean he shares the exact same beats in the story as Thor does; some beats in the stories match up, but with different characters, etc., so you have to play more fast and loose with your drawing of these parallels.

Otherwise you're limiting yourself, and significantly reducing the scope of the comparison to the point where you lose a lot of the potential value of this comparison as a tool for media analysis. Potentially useful for character analysis of the specific character you're talking about (Goku, or Thor), but it does potentially undercut the point of looking at Piccolo and Thanos, and the overall narrative similarities between IW and the Piccolo arc one could extend out from that.
KBABZ wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:22 am No joking, when I first saw the moment Piccolo blow up Central City (which, as a reminder, I didn't catch until a couple of years ago thanks to Cartoon Network screwing me over and me remaining spoiler-free because nobody likes to talk about Dragon Ball outside of this site), I flat-out said "HOLY SHIT, THIS IS BASICALLY Z NOW". In a way it's very similar to Vegeta using the Final Flash on Cell, and not just because both don't work!
Indeed.

I think the transition to the nebulous "Z-style" people like to talk about is something that never really happened at any one point, with even the post-Piccolo material having significant changes across its run (the Boo and Saiyan arcs are just as different as Red Ribbon and Saiyan, I'd say), but I do think the Piccolo arc was a significant turning point for the franchise, possibly the only single significant turning point that isn't just another little step that builds on what came before and adds its own couple of new things, with stuff like the Z timeskip being more of a windowdressing shakeup to introduce a few new characters and set the stage for the next arc, not really revolutionising the nature of Dragon Ball like Piccolo did.

But of course, the Piccolo arc is no-where near as effective if you've skipped stuff leading up to it, it's very much following up on and subverting what came before, so unlike the Saiyan arc, you can't skip to it and have an easy jumping on point, so I guess Toei are lucky they broke the franchise up when they did; if they'd done it a little earlier, it could have been even more messy than it already is! :lol:

Minor spoilers for the new Broly movie:
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by KBABZ » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:44 am

Robo4900 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:51 am I think the transition to the nebulous "Z-style" people like to talk about is something that never really happened at any one point, with even the post-Piccolo material having significant changes across its run (the Boo and Saiyan arcs are just as different as Red Ribbon and Saiyan, I'd say), but I do think the Piccolo arc was a significant turning point for the franchise, possibly the only single significant turning point that isn't just another little step that builds on what came before and adds its own couple of new things
Agreed. The Daimao arc introduced:
  • The first time we have an arc villain to take seriously AND hold his own in a fight
  • The first time the tone is serious and dramatic for the entire arc
  • The first time characters die at the hands of said arc villain (thus propelling Goku)
  • The first non-Tenkaichi arc to not be about the Dragon Balls (albeit only halfway through)
  • The first time a ki attack results in a massive, MASSIVE explosion
  • The first time Goku has to get a power up in order to stand a chance against the villain
  • The first time Goku even meets the villain before the last couple of episodes before the arc ends
  • The first time the heroes have to wait on Goku to arrive as their savior
  • The first time a non-TB encounter becomes a real test of endurance
  • The first time Goku suffers grievous injuries from the arc villain
  • The first time Goku and the arc villain fight with ki attacks
  • The first time the world is in peril due to the direct power of the villain
Now of course as you mentioned, Dragon Ball has a nebulous evolution; if you consider Tao Pai-Pai or Tien to be an arc villains (which you could; one only appears for a few episodes, and the other is more a rival like Draco Malfoy rather than a BAD GUY), half of those items wouldn't be firsts anymore, and some of them can't apply to later encounters either (Goku doesn't meet Vegeta, Frieza or Cell until the end, and he BARELY meets Buu). But all of those came together at once and were executed in a way similar to Z. Practically the only thing missing was ki attacks being promoted from special move to regular, which wouldn't happen until Raditz.
Robo4900 wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:51 am Minor spoilers for the new Broly movie:
The main reason why I mentioned Jiren was that one extra scene between him and Goku in the manga version I saw a while ago. I haven't watched nor read Super though so you have more context than I do.

On the stack, I'd also add Yajirobe... standing off to the side. He WOULD be a rival, but as usual he literally cannot be bothered!

User avatar
funrush
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1958
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:54 pm
Location: United States

Re: What is the darkest arc in the original run?

Post by funrush » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:26 pm

Piccolo and Freeza arcs are great options, here's my takes on two others:

Saiyan arc:
  • Goku is an alien from a race of beings that commit genocides for money, Earth is next on their list
  • Goku dies, leaving behind his son to be raised by his monster nemesis
  • Genociders Nappa and Vegeta want immortality and mull over impregnating lots of Earth women to create a race of super-beings, Nappa immediately decimates a city on arrival
  • Instead of having a normal childhood, 4 year old Gohan is subjected to combat training & wilderness survival for a year while having to cope with his father being dead
  • Yamcha dies to renewable cannon fodder
  • Nappa literally punches Tien's arm clean off
  • Chaozu self destruct scene
  • Gohan witnesses all of this and is most likely scarred for life, probably the reason he retires as an adult
  • Piccolo sacrifices his life for Gohan, Gohan loses his second father, the Dragon Balls no longer exist
  • Vegeta murders Nappa, his reason essentially being "the disabled are useless"
  • Goku realizes he killed his own Grampa
  • The scene where everyone's picking up the bodies and they have to explain why Chaozu's isn't around
Cell arc (mainly Trunks):
  • Goku dies of a heart disease and isn't brought back
  • Heartless cyborgs kill all the Z-Fighters except Gohan, Trunks, and Bulma, because of course Gohan has to watch his whole world burn. At this point Gohan's just a tragic figure.
  • The world is reduced to a post-apocalyptic nightmare, Gohan has to train Trunks because they're the only hope for humanity's surviva
  • Gohan gives his arm to save Trunks, Trunks has the weight of Earth's survival on his shoulders
  • Trunks finds his brother/father figure's dead body
  • Yamcha impaled scene
  • Cell absorbing the old man scene
  • The revelation that Cell killed Trunks in a different timeline
  • Goku again puts the entire responsibility on kid Gohan's shoulders even though he probably could've won by himself
  • Cell uses kid Gohan as a ragdoll, then creates Cell Jrs to torture the Z-fighters, then stomps Android 16s head
  • Kid Gohan goes SS2, becomes a rage filled sadist, tears apart the Cell Jrs and takes his time with Cell.
  • Goku, who's main characteristic is loving to fight, is visibly disturbed and tells Gohan to wrap it up. Gohan replies that he "wants to make Cell suffer."
  • This lapse in judgement results in Goku's death, because Gohan just can't have nice things.
  • They win but Goku chooses to stay dead and abandon his wife and two children because "it's probably just better this way."
Honorable mention to the Buu arc for Majin Vegeta killing all those people at the tournament over what is essentially a midlife crisis.

Post Reply