Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think we can make up a multiplier for Ikari state, because it's not the first time an Oozaru's power has changed.

There's the Golden Oozaru, and then SS4 itself which is a controlled version of that state.

Ikari is also a unique mutation of the Oozaru form, one that doesn't fully transform Broly and maintains his speed and Ki usage. He's still berserk, but he can fight well and use decent techniques even if he mostly uses overwhelming power.

I'd wager it's an evolution of the primal form just like Golden Oozaru and SS4 are. And since it's tied to Broly's emotional state (and we know how Saiyans' power can fluctuate depending on emotions), it likely doesn't have a multiplier. In essence, rather than necessarily growing as strong as an Oozaru, Broly instead draws from a well of this Oozaru potential to become an arbitrary level of strength to match/surpass Goku and Vegeta at various times.

For example, Broly's Great Ape power seemed to be what boosted his normal base form to compete with Super Saiyan Vegeta, and we're all well aware of how Super Saiyan outclasses Oozaru.

[QuakingStar]

I think we can make up a multiplier for Ikari state, because it's not the first time an Oozaru's power has changed.

There's the Golden Oozaru, and then SS4 itself which is a controlled version of that state.

Ikari is also a unique mutation of the Oozaru form, one that doesn't fully transform Broly and maintains his speed and Ki usage. He's still berserk, but he can fight well and use decent techniques even if he mostly uses overwhelming power.

I'd wager it's an evolution of the primal form just like Golden Oozaru and SS4 are. And since it's tied to Broly's emotional state (and we know how Saiyans' power can fluctuate depending on emotions), it likely doesn't have a multiplier. In essence, rather than necessarily growing as strong as an Oozaru, Broly instead draws from a well of this Oozaru potential to become an arbitrary level of strength to match/surpass Goku and Vegeta at various times.

For example, Broly's Great Ape power seemed to be what boosted his normal base form to compete with Super Saiyan Vegeta, and we're all well aware of how Super Saiyan outclasses Oozaru.

Broly hit his limit vs SSB Goku, and again as a SS vs SS Gogeta then again with LSS vs SSB Gogeta, so my examples of SS Fusion doing better than SSGSS and base fusion doing better than SSG are both right there.

[miguelnuva1]

I think we can make up a multiplier for Ikari state, because it's not the first time an Oozaru's power has changed.

There's the Golden Oozaru, and then SS4 itself which is a controlled version of that state.

Ikari is also a unique mutation of the Oozaru form, one that doesn't fully transform Broly and maintains his speed and Ki usage. He's still berserk, but he can fight well and use decent techniques even if he mostly uses overwhelming power.

I'd wager it's an evolution of the primal form just like Golden Oozaru and SS4 are. And since it's tied to Broly's emotional state (and we know how Saiyans' power can fluctuate depending on emotions), it likely doesn't have a multiplier. In essence, rather than necessarily growing as strong as an Oozaru, Broly instead draws from a well of this Oozaru potential to become an arbitrary level of strength to match/surpass Goku and Vegeta at various times.

For example, Broly's Great Ape power seemed to be what boosted his normal base form to compete with Super Saiyan Vegeta, and we're all well aware of how Super Saiyan outclasses Oozaru.

Broly hit his limit vs SSB Goku, and again as a SS vs SS Gogeta then again with LSS vs SSB Gogeta, so my examples of SS Fusion doing better than SSGSS and base fusion doing better than SSG are both right there.

Fusion only did that good because Goku and Vegeta are that strong.

[Hugo Boss]

Broly’s great ape power is in a totally different dimension from old regular great ape power-up, which only boosted the Saiyan’s battle power by 10. With that power, Broly overlapped several Super Saiyan levels, even SSG, which in itself is far beyond the 400-fold boost SS3 provides. So, Broly’s rage form can’t just be 10 times stronger than normal.

[Kaboom]

I don't see why nuBroli's "Rage" state trick wouldn't be the same 10-fold boost that Great Ape's always been. It's just that nuBroli himself is crazy-strong to begin with even without it, and his power was apparently constantly growing even more as the fight went on, so the 10x power boost was just like a bonus on top of all that.

[Yuji]

Broly’s great ape power is in a totally different dimension from old regular great ape power-up, which only boosted the Saiyan’s battle power by 10. With that power, Broly overlapped several Super Saiyan levels, even SSG, which in itself is far beyond the 400-fold boost SS3 provides. So, Broly’s rage form can’t just be 10 times stronger than normal.

Prior to using the Oozaru power-up, Broly had already forced Vegeta to go God.

[miguelnuva1]

Broly got 10x stronger then his overall power started to increase further. Something like this

Broly start 1

Broly max 50

Ikari Broly 500

Ikari Broly max 2000

Something like that for example.

[Hugo Boss]

This only shows that Broly’s great ape power isn’t static. It can go up to 2,000 times his normal power in your example. Don’t forget that Broly was drawing out that power same way Vegeta did with Super Saiyan in the beginning of their fight. The visual cue is his yellow eyes.

[miguelnuva1]

This only shows that Broly’s great ape power isn’t static. It can go up to 2,000 times his normal power in your example. Don’t forget that Broly was drawing out that power same way Vegeta did with Super Saiyan in the beginning of their fight. The visual cue is his yellow eyes.

His great power is always 10x but the form allowed his base to grow more. Saiyans get more growth when they unlock more forms.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m not seeing your point. Vegeta’s Super Saiyan power also temporarily increased his base form power, but that doesn’t mean Vegeta’s base form would have grown more powerful because of that. The most sensible conclusion is that Vegeta had between 1-50 times his strength when he started glowing gold and then 50 times when he completed the transformation.

Broly was also tapping into the power of his great ape form when he started turning the tables on Vegeta. It’s this power that makes Broly quickly power-up during their entire battle. Once Broly has this power in check he is evenly matched with Base Goku and Base Vegeta.

[QuakingStar]

I think we can make up a multiplier for Ikari state, because it's not the first time an Oozaru's power has changed.

There's the Golden Oozaru, and then SS4 itself which is a controlled version of that state.

Ikari is also a unique mutation of the Oozaru form, one that doesn't fully transform Broly and maintains his speed and Ki usage. He's still berserk, but he can fight well and use decent techniques even if he mostly uses overwhelming power.

I'd wager it's an evolution of the primal form just like Golden Oozaru and SS4 are. And since it's tied to Broly's emotional state (and we know how Saiyans' power can fluctuate depending on emotions), it likely doesn't have a multiplier. In essence, rather than necessarily growing as strong as an Oozaru, Broly instead draws from a well of this Oozaru potential to become an arbitrary level of strength to match/surpass Goku and Vegeta at various times.

For example, Broly's Great Ape power seemed to be what boosted his normal base form to compete with Super Saiyan Vegeta, and we're all well aware of how Super Saiyan outclasses Oozaru.

Broly hit his limit vs SSB Goku, and again as a SS vs SS Gogeta then again with LSS vs SSB Gogeta, so my examples of SS Fusion doing better than SSGSS and base fusion doing better than SSG are both right there.

Fusion only did that good because Goku and Vegeta are that strong.

Doesn't matter. Same two users used SSG and SSB, same two users fused to make Gogeta, all vs the same opponent. SS Gogeta is far better than SSGSS Goku or SSGSS Vegeta.

Herms did a translation of the SS4 and Vegito comparison already.The comparion questioned if Vegito was stronger than SS4 and Herms thought it was referring to a hypothetical Vegito and I agree and to note it treated Fusion in the same category as a form here.

This would mean at the minimum a SS Vegito during GT.

The same formula is used in GT for Fusion Dance as is used in DBSuper for Fusion Dance and Potara which is A + B x "tens of times".

While in GT it's possible that Potara still uses the whole A x B that DBZ used for Potara Fusion, which DBZ also implied also had an unnatural boost on top of it for Vegito since him and Goku were rivals and GT never said Potara had a different formula. This means SS4's power gain could have been comparable to A x B + the unnatural boost x 50.

[miguelnuva1]

I’m not seeing your point. Vegeta’s Super Saiyan power also temporarily increased his base form power, but that doesn’t mean Vegeta’s base form would have grown more powerful because of that. The most sensible conclusion is that Vegeta had between 1-50 times his strength when he started glowing gold and then 50 times when he completed the transformation.

Broly was also tapping into the power of his great ape form when he started turning the tables on Vegeta. It’s this power that makes Broly quickly power-up during their entire battle. Once Broly has this power in check he is evenly matched with Base Goku and Base Vegeta.

Basically when the form unlocked Broly's potential grew again. It's his overall power increasing but Ikari s still 10x Broly.

[QuakingStar]

Broly hit his limit vs SSB Goku, and again as a SS vs SS Gogeta then again with LSS vs SSB Gogeta, so my examples of SS Fusion doing better than SSGSS and base fusion doing better than SSG are both right there.

Fusion only did that good because Goku and Vegeta are that strong.

Doesn't matter. Same two users used SSG and SSB, same two users fused to make Gogeta, all vs the same opponent. SS Gogeta is far better than SSGSS Goku or SSGSS Vegeta.

Herms did a translation of the SS4 and Vegito comparison already.The comparion questioned if Vegito was stronger than SS4 and Herms thought it was referring to a hypothetical Vegito and I agree and to note it treated Fusion in the same category as a form here.

This would mean at the minimum a SS Vegito during GT.

The same formula is used in GT for Fusion Dance as is used in DBSuper for Fusion Dance and Potara which is A + B x "tens of times".

While in GT it's possible that Potara still uses the whole A x B that DBZ used for Potara Fusion, which DBZ also implied also had an unnatural boost on top of it for Vegito since him and Goku were rivals and GT never said Potara had a different formula. This means SS4's power gain could have been comparable to A x B + the unnatural boost x 50, or even up to A x B + the unnatural boost x 400.

Couldn't edit my post, so I had to quote it.

[Hugo Boss]

Basically when the form unlocked Broly's potential grew again. It's his overall power increasing but Ikari s still 10x Broly.

I’ve seen people separating the wrathful form in two stages, but honestly I don’t know where this is based on. The film implies Broly is finally having the opportunity to use his full power and the power of rage (Great Ape) reaches a limit when Broly is fighting Super Saiyan Blue. That would be where the 10 times increase would supposedly reach its end, not when Broly unlocks the form. Same way Broly’s Super Saiyan form can’t be the same as regular Super Saiyan, as it’s comparable to a SS fusion between Goku and Vegeta.

[miguelnuva1]

Basically when the form unlocked Broly's potential grew again. It's his overall power increasing but Ikari s still 10x Broly.

I’ve seen people separating the wrathful form in two stages, but honestly I don’t know where this is based on. The film implies Broly is finally having the opportunity to use his full power and the power of rage (Great Ape) reaches a limit when Broly is fighting Super Saiyan Blue. That would be where the 10 times increase would supposedly reach its end, not when Broly unlocks the form. Same way Broly’s Super Saiyan form can’t be the same as regular Super Saiyan, as it’s comparable to a SS fusion between Goku and Vegeta.

Broly is stronger than Hoku and Vegeta by that point. His base power is still rising when he unlocks new forms.

[Hugo Boss]

Think about it. Broly’s base form, enhanced or not, never came to be equal to Base Gogeta, but his Super Saiyan form is equal to Super Saiyan Gogeta, at least on its first stage. The second stage is named Super Saiyan Full Power, indicating that, under extreme conditions, this is the limit of Broly’s strength, which forces Gogeta to use Super Saiyan Blue. That’s proof enough that Broly’s transformations don’t follow the same standard that Goku and Vegeta have established. They are exceptions.

[goku the krump dancer]

Honestly, while I hate that any official media portrays either version of the insipid bundle of overhyped blandness that is Ultra Instinct as being in any way better than any level of Super Saiyan 4...

I'm also kinda tickled pink that the opposite and unfortunately pervasive notion, that Super Saiyan 4 is a measly speck in power compared to even Super Saiyan God, has likewise been blown out of the water.

It was blown out of the water the moment Freeza came back and surpassed everyone with just 4 months of bowflex, no God Ki required.

BoG supposedly set the precedent that you NEED God Ki to even begin to stand a chance against folks who are in that realm of power but then Freeza, Hit, Kale, Kelfa, Toppo, Jiren, Broli, Moro, Granolah, Gas, Freeza again and now apparently Gohan and Piccolo have all proved that to be untrue.

So for what its worth, SS4 can sit quite comfortably at the dinner table next to SSRed, Blue and everything else.

[miguelnuva1]

Think about it. Broly’s base form, enhanced or not, never came to be equal to Base Gogeta, but his Super Saiyan form is equal to Super Saiyan Gogeta, at least on its first stage. The second stage is named Super Saiyan Full Power, indicating that, under extreme conditions, this is the limit of Broly’s strength, which forces Gogeta to use Super Saiyan Blue. That’s proof enough that Broly’s transformations don’t follow the same standard that Goku and Vegeta have established. They are exceptions.

Broly's base form at the end of the film rivals Base Gogeta is what I'm arguing. We also see Broly power up one more time after he goes Legendary.

I also wouldn't say it forced Gogeta to use Blue as he blocked two attacks from Legendary Broly in SS before he goes Blue.

[Hugo Boss]

How can you make that assumption? The only time Broly fought using his base form after his fight against Gogeta was in Super Hero. He and Goku were evenly matched in their base forms. When Goku asked Broly to power-up he almost went berserker again, indicating that he was using the power of Great Ape when he powers-up, not something else.

[miguelnuva1]

How can you make that assumption? The only time Broly fought using his base form after his fight against Gogeta was in Super Hero. He and Goku were evenly matched in their base forms. When Goku asked Broly to power-up he almost went berserker again, indicating that he was using the power of Great Ape when he powers-up, not something else.

Because Broly keeps getting stronger throughout the movie. Its either he has a 10x multiplier like great ape and his base is getting more room to grow like the other saiyans hit walls and new transformations let them break through or his forms have their own giant multipliers.

The base form continuing to grow allows 10x for great ape and 50x for SS to remain the same as everyone else.

As for Super Hero that depends on how much Goku has grown and him getting close enough to train with someone who rivals Gogeta in power but has limited combat experience in 3 years isnt's impossible.