What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

[Matches Malone]

I'm done with multiverses. It now feels like a lazy way to be able to kill off characters without actually sticking to those stakes.

I'm just using that as an example, it can be anything. Toriyama is a creative person, and based on what I've read, the more a creative is stuck on one project, the less interest and effort they invest in it as time goes on. I really think Toriyama limiting his time to one project is a big mistake, as there's probably so much more he could be doing instead if it was something new from the ground up.

[ABED]

I don't know. Toriyama seems happy to not be doing much regular work. I'm less interested in what he does and more getting away from reboots. How about simply taking the ideas that the reboots were going to do and change enough so it's a brand new story. That's how DB came about in the first place. Toriyama did a parody of JTTW and ended up creating his own universe that went in all sorts of interesting directions because he wasn't tied down to the JTTW. Same thing with Star Wars.

Tying the story to old IP might give an initial hit of nostalgia but it feels hollow in the long run.

[KBABZ]

Going through the prelude to the Toriyama art book from 2015, it sounded like drawing was his least favourite part and he was more interested in story ideas. So I'd imagine his role in the Dragon Room is a dream come true for him. Sounds though like he should have more of a role in actually fleshing out and constructing these ideas rather than "oh that sounds cool good luck guys".

[Matches Malone]

Sounds though like he should have more of a role in actually fleshing out and constructing these ideas rather than "oh that sounds cool good luck guys".

I think the reason he's taking more of a guiding role is because he simply told the story he wanted in the original manga. I believe he got involved with BOG in the first place to prove a point after how he and the franchise were treated by Fox, but since then he seems happy just giving input and helping out with others' ideas.

[JulieYBM]

I think people should be making the sort of thing they like. Sometimes one wants to make something original! Sometimes one wants to make Dragon Ball! Under capitalism they might not get to make the kind of Dragon Ball they want to make in it entirety but they do still get to make something close to it. As a result, I don't really subscribe to "sToP rEbOoTiNg ThInGs!" because the problem isn't the rebooting, it's the shitty finished project.

[ABED]

It's a bit of both. Many of them are shitty by simple virtue of trying to reboot something popular. The lightning that was captured once upon a time is damn near impossible to capture again.

And what the hell does capitalism or any socioeconomic system have to do with this issue?

[JulieYBM]

And what the hell does capitalism or any socioeconomic system have to do with this issue?

The Dragon Ball Super TV series was produced on the quick precisely because of greedy capitalism that led to its being produced with no lead time. What very few bright spots do exist are purely due to the creative will power of the staff to try and make something good.

Meanwhile, Dragon Ball Super: Broli is clearly a product of capitalism that is at its inception a corporate money-grab but also manages to get away with being much, much closer to a passion project than a beaten-dead horse like the TV series was.

[WittyUsername]

Dragon Ball is one of those things that isn’t likely to get an actual reboot anytime soon. The closet it has had to a proper reboot was Kai, but that’s just a condensed version of the old anime.

[ABED]

And what the hell does capitalism or any socioeconomic system have to do with this issue?

The Dragon Ball Super TV series was produced on the quick precisely because of greedy capitalism that led to its being produced with no lead time. What very few bright spots do exist are purely due to the creative will power of the staff to try and make something good.

Meanwhile, Dragon Ball Super: Broli is clearly a product of capitalism that is at its inception a corporate money-grab but also manages to get away with being much, much closer to a passion project than a beaten-dead horse like the TV series was.

First we don't have Capitalism. That point can't be stressed enough, and second, bad art gets produced under every system you can think of. If you are going to blame "capitalism" for the substandard revival, then you also need to praise it for creating it to begin with and what made it become what it did at its best. Had Toriyama had his preference and not listened to his bosses at all, it would've stayed a JTTW parody and likely been cancelled. He changed it to a genre that sold better.

Art and commerce are much more closely aligned than you assume.

[Adamant]

Dragon Ball is one of those things that isn’t likely to get an actual reboot anytime soon. The closet it has had to a proper reboot was Kai, but that’s just a condensed version of the old anime.

Dragonball SD wasn't a reboot?

[JulieYBM]

First we don't have Capitalism. That point can't be stressed enough, and second, bad art gets produced under every system you can think of. If you are going to blame "capitalism" for the substandard revival, then you also need to praise it for creating it to begin with and what made it become what it did at its best. Had Toriyama had his preference and not listened to his bosses at all, it would've stayed a JTTW parody and likely been cancelled. He changed it to a genre that sold better.

Art and commerce are much more closely aligned than you assume.

Yeah, bad art is inevitable, there's also a difference: a massive corporation isn't trying to profit off of it. Someone's making it because they want to fulfill their creative desire. Dragon Ball Super sucked because it was rushed into production because corporations require infinite growth: that's how capitalism works. Quality be damned. The production committees made money galore all while ignoring the creative staff who would clearly want more time to produce something they could be proud of. Instead, because these projects are run like dictatorships--a hallmark of capitalism--rather than democracies where the staff can vote on every decision that affects them. The workers get no influence on profit-distribution and no influence on work conditions. This is the same shit that drove Sakai Munehisa from Toei Animation after Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon Crystal Season Ones & Two were fucked over.

Like, you're not going to convince a trans woman with no home, no healthcare, no money, and no chance of getting a job as a trans woman that capitalism is about anything but serving the wealthy and turning the workers against each other to fight over scraps. I've got actual life experience beyond my hobbies.

[ABED]

First we don't have Capitalism. That point can't be stressed enough, and second, bad art gets produced under every system you can think of. If you are going to blame "capitalism" for the substandard revival, then you also need to praise it for creating it to begin with and what made it become what it did at its best. Had Toriyama had his preference and not listened to his bosses at all, it would've stayed a JTTW parody and likely been cancelled. He changed it to a genre that sold better.

Art and commerce are much more closely aligned than you assume.

Yeah, bad art is inevitable, there's also a difference: a massive corporation isn't trying to profit off of it. Someone's making it because they want to fulfill their creative desire. Dragon Ball Super sucked because it was rushed into production because corporations require infinite growth: that's how capitalism works. Quality be damned. The production committees made money galore all while ignoring the creative staff who would clearly want more time to produce something they could be proud of. Instead, because these projects are run like dictatorships--a hallmark of capitalism--rather than democracies where the staff can vote on every decision that affects them. The workers get no influence on profit-distribution and no influence on work conditions. This is the same shit that drove Sakai Munehisa from Toei Animation after Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon Crystal Season Ones & Two were fucked over.

Like, you're not going to convince a trans woman with no home, no healthcare, no money, and no chance of getting a job as a trans woman that capitalism is about anything but serving the wealthy and turning the workers against each other to fight over scraps. I've got actual life experience beyond my hobbies.

It's that massive corporation that allowed you to get it in the first place. Without some business financing its production you don't get the film and TV industry with take massive amounts of capital to produce and distrubute on such a wide scale. We don't get Dragon Ball at all, much less over here if it weren't for companies looking to make money. Sometimes it leads to some great stuff, sometimes not.

That isn't how capitalism works. It's just a social system where property is privately owned and force is barred except in retaliation. What we have is NOT capitalism. It's the mixed economy.

And projects should be run with singular vision. Art by committee is stupid. The same applies with businesses as a whole. Here's the great paradox of humanity - we're stronger together but smarter as individuals.

I also have life experience. I didn't get these ideas from a college lecture. All the issues you speak of can be attributed to government intervention in the economy. I clearly won't convince you Capitalism isn't what you think it is when you don't have a proper conception of it. Basically anything short of Socialism is Capitalism.

[KBABZ]

Dragonball SD wasn't a reboot?

SD is more comparable to a parody retelling iMO. A reboot has a very clear intent to replace the original by telling/revamping the previous story, which SD isn't doing.

[JulieYBM]

It's that massive corporation that allowed you to get it in the first place. Without some business financing its production you don't get the film and TV industry with take massive amounts of capital to produce and distrubute on such a wide scale. We don't get Dragon Ball at all, much less over here if it weren't for companies looking to make money. Sometimes it leads to some great stuff, sometimes not.

That isn't how capitalism works. It's just a social system where property is privately owned and force is barred except in retaliation. What we have is NOT capitalism. It's the mixed economy.

You know what you do? You create a UBI, lower the work week, tax corporations to floor the money back into the hands of the consumers (regular motherfuckers like you and me), guarantee housing, education and medical care and that helps restrict the consolidation of power. This gives people more time and health to work outside the corporate set-up. We saw this with early YouTube, before the capitalists bought it out and broke the system.

And projects should be run with singular vision. Art by committee is stupid. The same applies with businesses as a whole. Here's the great paradox of humanity - we're stronger together but smarter as individuals.

I also have life experience. I didn't get these ideas from a college lecture. All the issues you speak of can be attributed to government intervention in the economy. I clearly won't convince you Capitalism isn't what you think it is when you don't have a proper conception of it. Basically anything short of Socialism is Capitalism.

noooooooooope. The consolidation of power in the workplace is bad, it should be spread across the workers democratically. This prevents the workplace from making any decisions that harm the personal and financial well-being of the workers.

Big government social programs are good, actually.

[ABED]

Economic power is not the same as political power. One comes from trade, the other from force. What you are asking for is mana from heaven. The origins of the term Laissez Faire is when a French bureaucrat asked a group of businessmen how they could help, and they replied "leave us alone." they were right. Interventions only distorts economies and makes things worse. You want affordable housing, end Fed manipulations of interest rates which pushes up asset prices and causes a bubble in the housing market. Your dumb condescending and not the least bit true cartoon misses the point. You don't see that you are attributing all the ills to Capitalism but never any of the positives. Apparently making money is why DB's reboot is so bad but even though those same conditions were what lead to DB existing in the first place, you can't acknowledge that. At the very least, it's mixed bag with some beneficial aspects. To say that there aren't any is disingenuous. Hell, Toriyama has said a big part of the reason he became a manga artist is to make money.

We're moving further away from things that would actually improve society. Redistribution of wealth isn't necessary or good (quite the contrary) because not only does it not improve people's lives, wealth isn't a zero sum game. Some having more doesn't mean you have less. Trade is mutually beneficial. That fundamental premise "zero sum" is the basis for so many misconceptions about this issue.

And to bring things back around to Dragon Ball, not one bit of this has fuck all to do with why the reboot is a bad idea. The idea was terrible from the start. There was no more story to tell and even if the lead time had been extended, it still wouldn't have been anything more than a hacky attempt to recapture something special. It was always bound to be at best a work of competent hacks.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

Couldn't have said it any better, jjgp1112.

[Adamant]

Dragonball SD wasn't a reboot?

SD is more comparable to a parody retelling iMO. A reboot has a very clear intent to replace the original by telling/revamping the previous story, which SD isn't doing.

A few gags aside, SD isn't really parodying anything, it's just retelling the story for a new and somewhat younger audience.

[JulieYBM]

Economic power is not the same as political power. One comes from trade, the other from force. What you are asking for is mana from heaven. The origins of the term Laissez Faire is when a French bureaucrat asked a group of businessmen how they could help, and they replied "leave us alone." they were right. Interventions only distorts economies and makes things worse. You want affordable housing, end Fed manipulations of interest rates which pushes up asset prices and causes a bubble in the housing market. Your dumb condescending and not the least bit true cartoon misses the point. You don't see that you are attributing all the ills to Capitalism but never any of the positives. Apparently making money is why DB's reboot is so bad but even though those same conditions were what lead to DB existing in the first place, you can't acknowledge that. At the very least, it's mixed bag with some beneficial aspects. To say that there aren't any is disingenuous. Hell, Toriyama has said a big part of the reason he became a manga artist is to make money.

We're moving further away from things that would actually improve society. Redistribution of wealth isn't necessary or good (quite the contrary) because not only does it not improve people's lives, wealth isn't a zero sum game. Some having more doesn't mean you have less. Trade is mutually beneficial. That fundamental premise "zero sum" is the basis for so many misconceptions about this issue.

And to bring things back around to Dragon Ball, not one bit of this has fuck all to do with why the reboot is a bad idea. The idea was terrible from the start. There was no more story to tell and even if the lead time had been extended, it still wouldn't have been anything more than a hacky attempt to recapture something special. It was always bound to be at best a work of competent hacks.

We have the resources, we just treat resources like this is a competitive video game and let the wealthy and corporations do with our money whatever they want. Don't listen to businessmen, they're not the smartest people in the room they are the greediest.

We form societies to improve lives. We form governments to maintain those societies. What you're suggesting is what we have right now and it's literally leading to nothing but suffering. Half a million homeless people on the streets. Trillions of debt for essential things like healthcare and education, to say nothing of the credit card debt the poor have had to rely on since the 1970s.

The system is meant to torture anyone who doesn't have money while keeping money out of the hands of the many. This is going to lead to a violent revolution if social safety nets aren't strengthened and bigots are held accountable (who are largely both the wealthy and the foot soldiers of the wealthy).

I care about the lives of real human beings above all. Threatening me with "BUT DRAGOFGDHJNODFBN BALL WON"T EXIST WITHOUT CAPITALISMSMSMSJIZZIM!!!!!!!!!!" isn't going to make me buckle, either. It's bullshit logic, anyway.

[ABED]

What I'm suggesting is in NO WAY what we have now. It is the most absurd claim that doesn't hold up to even the slightest scrutiny to claim we are moving towards a more economically and socially free society. What I want is a society where the initiation of force is barred.

We form societies to improve lives. We form governments to maintain those societies.

I agree but only to a point, after a certain point governments are a greater threat to people than anything else. I want people to live and flourish and they don't under collectivism.

Pointing to a few bad story choices as a rationale for condemning what we falsely attribute to capitalism is wrong. Attempts to keep franchises going past their sell by date are hardly a crime against art. Annoying at worst.

And I didn't threaten you with anything. Good lord.

[VegettoEX]

Can the usual suspects please stop derailing threads beyond all reasonable recognition? Accounts strikes forthcoming.