What would a reboot have to do in order to comply to today's standards?

[JulieYBM]

It’s not like Toei was ever really a progressive company either. We all remember what they did with General Blue. I seriously doubt they ever intended to portray Tenshinhan grieving over Chaozu’s death as romantic. I also certainly haven’t seen modern Dragon Ball going with that interpretation of their relationship either. By all accounts, Tenshinhan is supposed to be a big brother/father figure to Chaozu.

"Homophobic until proven otherwise" is a heck of a hill to die on.

I'm definitely willing to call Okazaki, Nishio, Ebisawa, Takenouchi and Inoue homophobic for what they did to Blue in 1987' Episode #56, though. Whether that remained true two years later in Episode #25 I cannot say, thus the interpreting that's going on.

Not only that but if you compare the anime to the manga, Toei added WAY more scenes of Roshi being a pervert than Toriyama did in his own!

Toei isn't a monolith, so I don't see the point of just saying "Toei did XXX" when there are actual names and people we can blame for things. For example, Nagamine and Nakamura making the Muten Roushi sexually assault people in Dragon Ball Super is a major issue because it's a kid's show, not an erotica for adults.

[WittyUsername]

It’s not like Toei was ever really a progressive company either. We all remember what they did with General Blue. I seriously doubt they ever intended to portray Tenshinhan grieving over Chaozu’s death as romantic. I also certainly haven’t seen modern Dragon Ball going with that interpretation of their relationship either. By all accounts, Tenshinhan is supposed to be a big brother/father figure to Chaozu.

"Homophobic until proven otherwise" is a heck of a hill to die on.

I'm definitely willing to call Okazaki, Nishio, Ebisawa, Takenouchi and Inoue homophobic for what they did to Blue in 1987' Episode #56, though. Whether that remained true two years later in Episode #25 I cannot say, thus the interpreting that's going on.

I’m not really one of those people who likes to accuse others of being bigots. I just don’t think that gay representation was on Toriyama or Toei’s radars at the time.

[MyVisionity]

Tenshinhan and Chiao Tzu can easily be interpreted as a gay couple. It doesn't really matter what Toriyama's or Toei's intentions were. Especially since they never stated otherwise.

[Super Sonic]

While I don't care about a reboot, part of me was wondering with General Blue, and while Japan doesn't have an issue, was wondering can they show gay bad guys in US kids' cartoons these days? I don't really watch much kids' cartoons these days, so wasn't sure if they could show gay characters as bad guys. I remember back in the 80s there was kind of a status quo of you couldn't portray black characters as bad guys in kids' cartoons and they were always good guys in a kind of weird ultra pc way. So if any of you wondered why Baxter Stockman was white in the original TMNT cartoon and black everywhere else, that's why. So was wondering if there was the same kind of mindset going on regarding gay characters. Just curiosity.

[JulieYBM]

While I don't care about a reboot, part of me was wondering with General Blue, and while Japan doesn't have an issue, was wondering can they show gay bad guys in US kids' cartoons these days? I don't really watch much kids' cartoons these days, so wasn't sure if they could show gay characters as bad guys. I remember back in the 80s there was kind of a status quo of you couldn't portray black characters as bad guys in kids' cartoons and they were always good guys in a kind of weird ultra pc way. So if any of you wondered why Baxter Stockman was white in the original TMNT cartoon and black everywhere else, that's why. So was wondering if there was the same kind of mindset going on regarding gay characters. Just curiosity.

Adora, the main character in She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, enters into a romantic relationship with her archenemy-turned-friend, Catra but this happens in the last episode after 52 episodes of various character interactions.

In Young Justice Season Three Livewire--while not an out-and-out villain--is also depicted as a WLW.

[ABED]

You can interpret things between Tenshinhan and Chaozu that way, but there wasn't intentional subtext.

[JulieYBM]

You can interpret things between Tenshinhan and Chaozu that way, but there wasn't intentional subtext.

Welcome to being queer.

[WittyUsername]

While I don't care about a reboot, part of me was wondering with General Blue, and while Japan doesn't have an issue, was wondering can they show gay bad guys in US kids' cartoons these days? I don't really watch much kids' cartoons these days, so wasn't sure if they could show gay characters as bad guys. I remember back in the 80s there was kind of a status quo of you couldn't portray black characters as bad guys in kids' cartoons and they were always good guys in a kind of weird ultra pc way. So if any of you wondered why Baxter Stockman was white in the original TMNT cartoon and black everywhere else, that's why. So was wondering if there was the same kind of mindset going on regarding gay characters. Just curiosity.

Bebop’s human form was black, so I don’t know if that’s a legitimate rule. I could’ve sworn I heard that the reason they made Baxter Stockman white was because they thought it would look bad for a black character to be portrayed as a helpless slave to the Shredder.

As for whether or not kid’s cartoons are allowed to have LGBT villains, I actually never thought of that before, but I doubt the FCC or whoever would have any hang-ups about that. Still, I think writers would definitely avoid having any gay villains who happen to be predatory, but since we’re talking about kid’s shows here, you’re less likely to see those kinds of villains in general.

[KBABZ]

Toei isn't a monolith, so I don't see the point of just saying "Toei did XXX" when there are actual names and people we can blame for things. For example, Nagamine and Nakamura making the Muten Roushi sexually assault people in Dragon Ball Super is a major issue because it's a kid's show, not an erotica for adults.

That's a very good point. I wonder whose names will regularly come up regarding these additions if we went into the credits archives for those episodes?

[Jiren The Alpha]

Dragon ball is not a story about sexuality, it's about adventure and fighting badguys.

why is peoples sexuality important in a story like Dragon ball?

[JulieYBM]

Dragon ball is not a story about sexuality, it's about adventure and fighting badguys.

why is peoples sexuality important in a story like Dragon ball?

I dunno, Toriyama keeps relying on characters' sexuality to make new characters, the cartoon makes numerous references to Kuririn wanting to get married.

Those hetereosexuals always have to throw their sexuality in peoples' faces.

[Jiren The Alpha]

I dunno, Toriyama keeps relying on characters' sexuality to make new characters, the cartoon makes numerous references to Kuririn wanting to get married.

Those hetereosexuals always have to throw their sexuality in peoples' faces.

[/quote]

Kuririn wanting to get marred was not an arc, has there ever been a moment in Dragon ball where sexuality was important?(general blue was just one comment and then they move on).

Gender,race and sexuality has never been important in Dragon ball, when Android 18 beat up Vegeta she did not talk about "girl power" or
when spopovich beat up Videl he did not talk about how women are weak or characters talking about Commander Black being a black man.

Thats why i like Dragon ball, its like me, i dont see race,gender or sexuality i see characters.

I apologize if i have offended you in anyway

[JulieYBM]

Kuririn wanting to get marred was not an arc, has there ever been a moment in Dragon ball where sexuality was important?(general blue was just one comment and then they move on).

No, it's just consistently thrown in our faces.

Someone's sexuality doesn't have to be the source of a major arc for us to be consistently remembered "ahaha I'm a romantic heterosexual ahaha".

Heck, remember the first story arc? Blooma is specifically looking for a boyfriend and Yamcha is specifically looking for a girlfriend. That's the characters' sexuality being made a literal plot point.

Gender,race and sexuality has never been important in Dragon ball, when Android 18 beat up Vegeta she did not talk about "girl power" or
when spopovich beat up Videl he did not talk about how women are weak or characters talking about Commander Black being a black man.

Thats why i like Dragon ball, its like me, i dont see race,gender or sexuality i see characters.

I apologize if i have offended you in anyway

Let me use the most polite terms I can think of here: being able to say "I don't see [x immutable trait]" is a form of privilege a lot of us don't enjoy. Women, queer people, disabled people, and people of color don't particularly get the best representation in the world. Artificial Human #18 doesn't have to mention something like 'girl power' (that's just lame dialogue) but actively beating Vegeta? That's still making a gender statement.

Let me try to say this as plainly as possible, since I do have issues with just speaking vaguely or with similes: a lot of media--Dragon Ball included--treat being cishet (cisgender & heterosexual) as a default and I'm concerned that media like that influences those who consume it to believe the same. That's my main point of contention and why I also feel miffed when someone acts as if being inclusive is a chore because they don't want to have to improve themselves for the sake of 'the others'.

[Matches Malone]

I apologize if i have offended you in anyway

I think you've offended a lot of people with that comment. With that said, I completely agree with you, I watch DB and other anime for the story and characters, not the American politics that no one should expect to see in JAPANESE shows.

[JulieYBM]

I apologize if i have offended you in anyway

I think you've offended a lot of people with that comment. With that said, I completely agree with you, I watch DB and other anime for the story and characters, not the American politics that no one should expect to see in JAPANESE shows.

Queer people exist in Japan and want the same things American queer folks do.

[Matches Malone]

Queer people exist in Japan and want the same things American queer folks do.

That's fine, I think any fan base has the right to ask for certain things, but I don't think they should feel entitled to them either.

[JulieYBM]

Queer people exist in Japan and want the same things American queer folks do.

That's fine, I think any fan base has the right to ask for certain things, but I don't think they should feel entitled to them either.

You were literally being dismissive of queer people in your last post. Now you want to placate by saying we're 'okay' while simultaneously dismissing the veracity of our criticism? You're equating queer people to entitled brats simply for being critical of media representation, something that leads to further discrimination?

[Matches Malone]

You were literally being dismissive of queer people in your last post. Now you want to placate by saying we're 'okay' while simultaneously dismissing the veracity of our criticism? You're equating queer people to entitled brats simply for being critical of media representation, something that leads to further discrimination?

I simply stated why I watch anime, which may or may not line up with why you and others watch it. What I meant by entitled is that fans in general aren't owned anything by the creators. For example, you've got Vegeta fans crying a river for the past month over how he was written in last month's chapter, and I told them the same thing, Toyotaro doesn't owe you anything. When it comes to discrimination, I fail to see how not being represented in a story leads to that. Discrimination in general will take a lot more than representation in DB to fix, unfortunately.

[KBABZ]

If the story is still the same stuff of getting stronger and defeating bad guys and having fun adventures, why CAN'T a Dragon Ball character be queer along the way?

[Matches Malone]

If the story is still the same stuff of getting stronger and defeating bad guys and having fun adventures, why CAN'T a Dragon Ball character be queer along the way?

No one's saying they can't be, just not to expect it, as Toriyama is simply not that kind of writer. Fans should also not expect everyone in the cast to be as important as Goku and Vegeta like in One Piece where everyone is relevant from start to finish, as Toriyama isn't that kind of writer.