The Kinto-un and Earthly Unpure Desires

[Cure Dragon 255]

I thought about it some and.I realized that Goku is pure in that he has not Earthly Unpure Desires such as greed or interest in Sex, to the point that its implied that he never kissed Chi Chi. I thought who else could ride Kinto-Un. Could ZAMASU ride on it?

[Kakkaroto735]

I thought about it some and.I realized that Goku is pure in that he has not Earthly Unpure Desires such as greed or interest in Sex, to the point that its implied that he never kissed Chi Chi. I thought who else could ride Kinto-Un. Could ZAMASU ride on it?

Zamasu at the start could but Zamasu after fighting Goku and Vegeta could not. He fell to greed, violence and hate. Originally he only wanted to kill mortals to make the universe better but then he became cruel and messed up.

[Aim]

I thought about it some and.I realized that Goku is pure in that he has not Earthly Unpure Desires such as greed or interest in Sex, to the point that its implied that he never kissed Chi Chi. I thought who else could ride Kinto-Un. Could ZAMASU ride on it?

Zamasu at the start could but Zamasu after fighting Goku and Vegeta could not. He fell to greed, violence and hate. Originally he only wanted to kill mortals to make the universe better but then he became cruel and messed up.

It really depends, he may actually believe that the mortals deserve the treatment he was giving them. Anyhow, I don't recall him torturing the mortals besides Trunks and the main cast.

I think Zamasu was pure of heart throughout, he truly believed what he was doing was right. In the manga is when he really fell low when he was going to destroy the planet.

[Kakkaroto735]

I thought about it some and.I realized that Goku is pure in that he has not Earthly Unpure Desires such as greed or interest in Sex, to the point that its implied that he never kissed Chi Chi. I thought who else could ride Kinto-Un. Could ZAMASU ride on it?

Zamasu at the start could but Zamasu after fighting Goku and Vegeta could not. He fell to greed, violence and hate. Originally he only wanted to kill mortals to make the universe better but then he became cruel and messed up.

It really depends, he may actually believe that the mortals deserve the treatment he was giving them. Anyhow, I don't recall him torturing the mortals besides Trunks and the main cast.

I think Zamasu was pure of heart throughout, he truly believed what he was doing was right. In the manga is when he really fell low when he was going to destroy the planet.

Either way, Goku black is very unpure. He literally continued torturing Trunks in a world where no one else could beat him. The kinto un isn't about conviction or intentions. It's more about desires than any of that. Goku had little desire to hurt others but Zamasu did. Granted, Zamasu thought he was just and had good intentions but he was willing to make others suffer for his actions.

[Aim]

Either way, Goku black is very unpure. He literally continued torturing Trunks in a world where no one else could beat him. The kinto un isn't about conviction or intentions. It's more about desires than any of that. Goku had little desire to hurt others but Zamasu did. Granted, Zamasu thought he was just and had good intentions but he was willing to make others suffer for his actions.

I need evidence that the Kintoun isn't about convicion or intentions.

Zamasu basically killed all other mortals swiftly with little to no pain from the looks of it, he needed Trunks in order to grow in strength.

[Kakkaroto735]

Either way, Goku black is very unpure. He literally continued torturing Trunks in a world where no one else could beat him. The kinto un isn't about conviction or intentions. It's more about desires than any of that. Goku had little desire to hurt others but Zamasu did. Granted, Zamasu thought he was just and had good intentions but he was willing to make others suffer for his actions.

I need evidence that the Kintoun isn't about convicion or intentions.

Zamasu basically killed all other mortals swiftly with little to no pain from the looks of it, he needed Trunks in order to grow in strength.

Who do we see fail to use the Kintoun? Bulma, Kid Krillin, Roshi
What do they have in common? It's their human and earthly desires that prevent them from being pure. Bulma is selfish and manipulative. She has good intentions for others but her care for herself is greater and she is willing to manipulate others to achieve her own goals. Kid Krillin has immense lust for women but he still wants to help others, despite being cowardly at times. Roshi also lusts after women but he was likely able to ride Kintoun at some point since he is surprised by his inability to ride it and Roshi does want good to prevail and has more conviction than Bulma. None of these characters are evil yet they can't ride Kintoun.
Who do we see use the Kintoun? Goku, Gohan, Goten, Teen Chi Chi, Blue Launch, Upa and Arale.
We never see Chi Chi use it again after the 23rd Tournament.
Goku has a desire to fight strong guys, that is what drives him but he is heroic and he always wants to do what's best for everyone.
Gohan has little desire to fight and only fights to save others, his goals are very different from Goku but they both believe in doing what they believe is right.
Goten just wants to have fun and play for the most part but he cares about saving others to a degree. He lacks the conviction that Gohan or Goku have.
Teen Chi Chi rides off into the sky with Goku at the end of the Tenkaichi Budokai. She cares about Goku and she is polite to others. She doesn't have as much of a stake in the safety of the world since she can't comprehend Goku's level of power or the enemies he faces. She just wants Goku safe and with her.
Blue Launch is well mannered and cares about her friends but she doesn't see most of the enemies, Blonde Launch does and Blue Launch is just polite.
Upa is an innocent young boy who cares about fighting evil but he doesn't have the power to do much so he has less agency which leads to him having less conviction.
Arale is a friendly enthusiastic android. Not much to her character though.
All these characters tend to share naivety and an ignorance to most impure human desires. Krillin and Roshi have lust, Bulma has manipulation and being selfish as her reasons for failing to ride the Kintoun.
I think riding the Nimbus is less about conviction. To a degree it seems more about intentions that I thought at first but Zamasu takes way too much enjoyment in his actions to be pure. He enjoys violence in a way that Goku or Vegeta don't. They tend to enjoy the battle and not the pain their enemies feel.

[SupremeKai25]

Yes, he could, as it is stated by Gowasu that Zamasu was pure of heart. So he could definitely ride it when he was still an apprentice.

I thought about it some and.I realized that Goku is pure in that he has not Earthly Unpure Desires such as greed or interest in Sex, to the point that its implied that he never kissed Chi Chi. I thought who else could ride Kinto-Un. Could ZAMASU ride on it?

Zamasu at the start could but Zamasu after fighting Goku and Vegeta could not. He fell to greed, violence and hate. Originally he only wanted to kill mortals to make the universe better but then he became cruel and messed up.

It really depends, he may actually believe that the mortals deserve the treatment he was giving them. Anyhow, I don't recall him torturing the mortals besides Trunks and the main cast.

I think Zamasu was pure of heart throughout, he truly believed what he was doing was right. In the manga is when he really fell low when he was going to destroy the planet.

I completely agree and I think there is one moment that shows that Zamasu was still at his core pure and well-intentioned. It is when he cries during the Vegito fight, proclaiming that he is fighting for the good of the cosmos. That, to me, indicates that deep down he always had a genuine heart that sought good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geseBy8fxsI

If someone literally cries for their ideals of peace, I think it is obvious that their heart is sincere and genuine.

[Aim]

Who do we see fail to use the Kintoun? Bulma, Kid Krillin, Roshi
What do they have in common? It's their human and earthly desires that prevent them from being pure. Bulma is selfish and manipulative. She has good intentions for others but her care for herself is greater and she is willing to manipulate others to achieve her own goals. Kid Krillin has immense lust for women but he still wants to help others, despite being cowardly at times. Roshi also lusts after women but he was likely able to ride Kintoun at some point since he is surprised by his inability to ride it and Roshi does want good to prevail and has more conviction than Bulma. None of these characters are evil yet they can't ride Kintoun.
Who do we see use the Kintoun? Goku, Gohan, Goten, Teen Chi Chi, Blue Launch, Upa and Arale.
We never see Chi Chi use it again after the 23rd Tournament.
Goku has a desire to fight strong guys, that is what drives him but he is heroic and he always wants to do what's best for everyone.
Gohan has little desire to fight and only fights to save others, his goals are very different from Goku but they both believe in doing what they believe is right.
Goten just wants to have fun and play for the most part but he cares about saving others to a degree. He lacks the conviction that Gohan or Goku have.
Teen Chi Chi rides off into the sky with Goku at the end of the Tenkaichi Budokai. She cares about Goku and she is polite to others. She doesn't have as much of a stake in the safety of the world since she can't comprehend Goku's level of power or the enemies he faces. She just wants Goku safe and with her.
Blue Launch is well mannered and cares about her friends but she doesn't see most of the enemies, Blonde Launch does and Blue Launch is just polite.
Upa is an innocent young boy who cares about fighting evil but he doesn't have the power to do much so he has less agency which leads to him having less conviction.
Arale is a friendly enthusiastic android. Not much to her character though.
All these characters tend to share naivety and an ignorance to most impure human desires. Krillin and Roshi have lust, Bulma has manipulation and being selfish as her reasons for failing to ride the Kintoun.
I think riding the Nimbus is less about conviction. To a degree it seems more about intentions that I thought at first but Zamasu takes way too much enjoyment in his actions to be pure. He enjoys violence in a way that Goku or Vegeta don't. They tend to enjoy the battle and not the pain their enemies feel.

Those characters are completely different from Zamasu, Zamasu believed what he was doing was for the greater good of the universe. Whereas Bulma, Kuririn, Muten Roshi, etc couldn't ride the Kintoun because they obviously knew that certain behaviours were inappropriate yet they still did them.

Zamasu truly believes he understands mortals, in a way he is also ignorant just like Son Goku and Lunch. One could argue Zamasu was also set on the wrong path by Gowasu, hence his naïve views.

Maybe towards the end Zamasu would have not been able to ride the Kintoun, but in the early days, I believe he would have, even when he was carrying out his plan.

I completely agree and I think there is one moment that shows that Zamasu was still at his core pure and well-intentioned. It is when he cries during the Vegito fight, proclaiming that he is fighting for the good of the cosmos. That, to me, indicates that deep down he always had a genuine heart that sought good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geseBy8fxsI

If someone literally cries for their ideals of peace, I think it is obvious that their heart is sincere and genuine.

Yeah that is a good example, Zamasu really was just lost, probably incredibly conflicted as well since he keeps hearing one thing and seeing another.

[SupremeKai25]

It should also be mentioned that being able to ride the Flying Nimbus is just one way to determine whether someone has purity of heart or not. There are other means to determine that, such as looking at the kind of tea that that person brews. Tea produced by those pure of heart is delicious and perfect, which was the high quality of Zamasu's tea, as Gowasu remarked.

When the tea starts showing swirls, it means that the pure-hearted individual is feeling conflicted, as was the case with Zamasu when he was still trying to learn about mortals. Gowasu remarks how this kind of tea does not taste good, as it reflects the maker's inner turmoil. However, once he makes up his mind that mortals are evil and must be destroyed, the tea goes back to being free of imperfections. After that, Zamasu goes on to brew more tea for Gowasu, and he never complains again, and in the Future timeline, Zamasu and Black are seen drinking tea without complaining about the taste, nor do any of those following cases ever show tea with swirls.

This means that the tea made by Zamasu remained perfect and delicious even after he made up his mind about mortals and started to commit multiversal omnicide, and so this means that Zamasu still had purity of heart. You could say that he reached enlightenment. This is because ultimately Zamasu was completely sincere in his heart, there was not an ounce of turmoil or second thoughts. You can call him delusional and mad, but he was genuine, and that's why he retained purity of heart. Meanwhile people like Roshi and Bulma are mediocre, they don't have any higher ideal driving them.