Shouldn’t Goku and Vegeta have Godly Ki in their Base forms now???

[GodVegetto91]

Considering that they have mastered Godly techniques which possess Godly Ki (Beerus has God ki), Goku’s silver haired UI also has God ki (confirmed a couple of times.).

And perhaps most importantly, TOPPO had God ki in his normal state (In fact, Toppo doesn’t even HAVE any transformations at all.) And he’s also confirmed a born mortal like Goku and Vegeta, yet he had God ki, despite having shown NO hint of having Hakai at his disposal, which Vegeta now actually DOES HAVE in his Base form!

Toppo likely doesn’t have Hakai, and just “regular God ki” like SSG, SSB, and SSBE have, while Vegeta now does! (A HIGHER “God” power...)

What do you guys think???

[Thani]

Honestly? They should have access to god ki ever since they unlocked SSGSS. They were training under a godly being, training to USE god ki, so on and so forth. They SHOULD be able to to manifest that type of ki whenever... But I guess the transformations are symbolic of that.

Super Saiyan God: What a saiyan naturally transforms into when using god ki.
Super Saiyan Blue: What a saiyan naturally transforms into when using god ki in tandern with super saiyan.

Perhaps it's not a matter of using in their base forms at all... Rather, they instantly change when using said type of ki.

[Koitsukai]

RoF base Goku wasn't just Goku with god ki or something like that? that was the most logical step after BoG, yet it was retconned in the manga and in the anime. It's been made too convoluted and hasn't been treated clearly to have a definite answer, IMO.

Anyway, Toppo probably has hakai but the ultimate version of it, the one that kills and erases you on the spot, like what Goku tried vs Zamasu, something forbidden at the ToP. If he didn't have that, then what the hell was his training all about? just attaining god ki? could you be a hakaishin candidate and NOT have any type of hakai?
What he clearly didn't master by the ToP was the explosive version of it, the one Vegeta now has. Probably why he never received a hakai earring.

[Thani]

RoF base Goku wasn't just Goku with god ki or something like that? that was the most logical step after BoG, yet it was retconned in the manga and in the anime. It's been made too convoluted and hasn't been treated clearly to have a definite answer, IMO.

Anyway, Toppo probably has hakai but the ultimate version of it, the one that kills and erases you on the spot, like what Goku tried vs Zamasu, something forbidden at the ToP. If he didn't have that, then what the hell was his training all about? just attaining god ki? could you be a hakaishin candidate and NOT have any type of hakai?
What he clearly didn't master by the ToP was the explosive version of it, the one Vegeta now has. Probably why he never received a hakai earring.

Toppo was a GoD in training alright, but I doubt that Toyotaro gave him much thought. Otherwise he would have expanded on his character, what it meant for him to be a candidate, etcetera. He'll probably have it now, if he appears again, since Toyo decided to use Hakai as the "other technique" and stuff.

[Miracles]

Goku never had god ki in base. BoG made that clear the moment he reverted from red to SSJ/Base against Beerus.

[Thani]

Right, in RoF itself there's a scene with Kuririn commenting that Goku's ki disappeared when he turned Blue, meaning he could feel him beforehand.

[GodVegetto91]

Guys, I am clearly talking about CURRENT manga Goku and Vegeta, who have mastered UI and Hakai in their Base forms respectively. (I thought that was clear.)

The old versions of Base Goku and Base Vegeta CLEARLY didn’t have God ki in Base..

But now? I’m fairly certain that they do!

Or SHOULD at least... (Unless Toritaro fucks up again ofcourse.) Which unfortunately, is a real possibility.

[UpFromTheSkies]

God ki is one of those things that has never been fully explained in detail and seems to lack consistency in the way it's presented, so we can't really say anything conclusive about it other than it can't be sensed by normal people

[BWri]

Saiyans are weird. And I get more and more annoyed that the series hasn't taken the time to properly explain their transformation mechanics. Saiyan bodies seem to be more prone to mutations. Their reactions to god ki got me thinking about this. Of course, out of universe, it just shows that their godly transformations are poorly thought out. But in universe, their bodies must mutate to surpass the limitations inherent to their base forms. It's a theory I've seen kicked around for characters like Gohan with huge potentials, that the power is already there but they need a way to access it all at once and Saiyans use transformations to accomplish this.

With Goku and Vegeta, I suppose you can either view it as A.) they haven't attempted to train their base forms to access the god ki. To me this makes little sense, as Goku would have had a taste of this during his fight with Beerus and would likely attempt to access this again. B.) They currently need their transformations to access the god ki strictly based on their Saiyan genetics and the transformation mutations that come from that, likely because their base forms have some kind of limitation compared to other non-human races. You could maybe even view transformations as a genetic shortcut to evolution.

Likely the story will take one of those two paths but won't give us all the details. I hope it's B, but with the recent explanation of UI, it's more likely it'll be A.

**edit, and a C.) path would just be both of those which would be accomplished by surpassing their previous limitations in the standard series way. The anime had a ton of this.

[BWri]

I keep forgetting that Goku never absorbs SSG power into his base in the manga. Super strange that he does this in the 2 other continuities. I guess Toyotaro saw the need to fix that based on later plot developments.

[GodVegetto91]

I keep forgetting that Goku never absorbs SSG power into his base in the manga. Super strange that he does this in the 2 other continuities. I guess Toyotaro saw the need to fix that based on later plot developments.

Toyotaro can look into the future! Confirmed! He saw that a retcon was going to happen by the Anime staff, and thought to himself, “Nope! Not going to happen in my continuity. I’ll make sure that Goku never gets the God power in Base and has to instead rely on transformations!” xD

[Thani]

I keep forgetting that Goku never absorbs SSG power into his base in the manga. Super strange that he does this in the 2 other continuities. I guess Toyotaro saw the need to fix that based on later plot developments.

Toyotaro can look into the future! Confirmed! He saw that a retcon was going to happen by the Anime staff, and thought to himself, “Nope! Not going to happen in my continuity. I’ll make sure that Goku never gets the God power in Base and has to instead rely on transformations!” xD

In this regard I admit he was very smart. As soon as the U6 Tournament began, it was quite clear that the whole "SSG power absorbed" deal was a huge mistake.

[GodVegetto91]

I keep forgetting that Goku never absorbs SSG power into his base in the manga. Super strange that he does this in the 2 other continuities. I guess Toyotaro saw the need to fix that based on later plot developments.

Toyotaro can look into the future! Confirmed! He saw that a retcon was going to happen by the Anime staff, and thought to himself, “Nope! Not going to happen in my continuity. I’ll make sure that Goku never gets the God power in Base and has to instead rely on transformations!” xD

In this regard I admit he was very smart. As soon as the U6 Tournament began, it was quite clear that the whole "SSG power absorbed" deal was a huge mistake.

I can kinda see why they did that.. Since a mortal tournament was already happening they couldn’t have Goku and Vegeta always be at God level in their weakest state. So a degradation had to take place... And it did!

In my personal opinion, a mortal martial arts tournament should have never even happened after they achieved God level. But the writers, being the writers that they are, decided that it was a good idea.. (even though it was terrible.) So they had to make a retcon. But now afterwards it turned out to be a blessing in disguise. (As there is no more confusion anymore.)

[Jack Bz]

I think the retcon was intended from the start, but there was just a huge miscommunication between Toriyama and Toei who used the films as a reference for the anime and assumed those sort of details would be the same and didn't think to get clarification.

I remember finding it incredibly weird that Frost was being treated as somewhat of an amateur yet was supposedly as strong as a super Saiyan god. Same with Cabba.

[GodVegetto91]

I think the retcon was intended from the start, but there was just a huge miscommunication between Toriyama and Toei who used the films as a reference for the anime and assumed those sort of details would be the same and didn't think to get clarification.

I remember finding it incredibly weird that Frost was being treated as somewhat of an amateur yet was supposedly as strong as a super Saiyan god. Same with Cabba.

Still, Base Vegeta struggling against Base Cabba in the Manga is just WRONG.. No matter HOW you look at it...

[Thani]

Honestly, it didn't even have to happen. They were the STRONGEST in Universe 6, yes? So Cabba having God (so that Vegeta could still teach him about Blue) would not feel out of place, same with Frost having his own evolution (even if weaker than Freeza's). Then Hit being such a powerhouse would feel much more of a surprise, considering he could easily outdo the other fighters.

It wouldn't really be a problem if the fighters were explicitly "godlike", which they should. Honestly, it made U6 feel like a joke, apart from Hit.

And that's not even getting into the ToP. Hooh, boy.

[Koitsukai]

I think Toriyama is to blame. He was the one who came up with absorbing SSG in base, he made base Goku beat up the much stronger Freeza... and he was the one who wrote on a napkin the U6 tournament with mid-Z tier characters for the following arc.

Toei, blindly follow Toriyama's route, I guess believing he would stick to what he wrote for the movies, while Toyo was smarter and took measures just in case Toriyama had more inconsistencies in his back pocket.

[Hugo Boss]

God ki is one of those things that has never been fully explained in detail and seems to lack consistency in the way it's presented, so we can't really say anything conclusive about it other than it can't be sensed by normal people

This is halfway true. While it should not be sensed by mortal beings, some of them were able to, like Vegeta, Freeza, Hit and Jiren in the anime, for unknown reasons. We don’t know if they say this because they can really sense it or if they are guessing based on the pressure they are feeling. But you are right that consistency is lacking.

In the anime, Whis explains they need to raise their ki as much as they can without letting it leak out from their bodies, but this doesn’t explain how they start emitting another type of ki. They only naturally realize SSB’s power is there by doing so. Also, in the special dimension within Whis’ staff they can only move around if they manipulate their ki like that, because of the immense pressure of the god ki that is there. This only reinforces the idea that mastery of ki manipulation is required to enter that realm, but the more technical aspect of how their ki become more pure or how they emit a super heavy aura is conveniently left unexplained.

In the manga, it doesn’t seem like they went this route, at least not initially. This tweak only became a key attribute to complete SSB, not access it. Later Vegeta pretty much abandons this concept when he unlocked SSBE. Besides, it seems that deities have to undergo some specific training to attain god ki, like Hakaishin and Kaioshin’s candidates and Dende. Oob is also an unique case, as he inherited god ki from Pure Boo, who stole it from Grand Kaioshin after the split.

Considering all this, honestly I think it’s not impossible for Goku and Vegeta to start using god ki in their regular forms, but, at least until now, it seems to be exclusive to transformations.

[GodVegetto91]

I think Toriyama is to blame. He was the one who came up with absorbing SSG in base, he made base Goku beat up the much stronger Freeza... and he was the one who wrote on a napkin the U6 tournament with mid-Z tier characters for the following arc.

Toei, blindly follow Toriyama's route, I guess believing he would stick to what he wrote for the movies, while Toyo was smarter and took measures just in case Toriyama had more inconsistencies in his back pocket.

This is why I always say that Toyotaro is just simply a better writer than Toriyama.. There really is no polite way to say this.

[BWri]

I think Toriyama is to blame. He was the one who came up with absorbing SSG in base, he made base Goku beat up the much stronger Freeza... and he was the one who wrote on a napkin the U6 tournament with mid-Z tier characters for the following arc.

Toei, blindly follow Toriyama's route, I guess believing he would stick to what he wrote for the movies, while Toyo was smarter and took measures just in case Toriyama had more inconsistencies in his back pocket.

This is why I always say that Toyotaro is just simply a better writer than Toriyama.. There really is no polite way to say this.

Well, it's harder to create something from scratch than it is to do so from something that already exists. So I think, Toyotaro has it easier in many ways than Toriyama-san ever did. Though the pressure that's on his shoulders is quite immense. Toriyama-san needs someone to bounce ideas of off or someone to correct certain aspects of his stories. I think his editors did a lot for Dragon Ball over the years. I think Toriyama-san's writing is more artistic while Toyotaro's is more technical. Them working together is a good combo. By the end of Super, I could see myself agreeing with you, but so far it still feels too early too judge for me.