What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

[Jack Bz]

1) Biggest, biggest, BIGGEST mistake of all, introducing a new transformation (SSGSS) so soon, killing off Super Saiyan God in the span of just 1 fight. The worst part is that's even a MAINLINE transformation.
It bloated Goku's Super Saiyan forms into a numerical equivalent of a Super Saiyan 5 way too quickly.
This caused writers (both Toei and Toyotaro) to find excuses to make the transformation return in later sagas and give it a purpose.
This SSGSS transformation, with a stupid name with an even stupid-er excuse for it (The Super Saiyan of a Super Saiyan God...? Super Saiyan Squared?) had a huge impact on DB Super as whole IMHO

Definitely agree with this. It's the most irrelevant transformation of all Dragon Ball. Every instance of super saiyan blue in all mediums could have just been SSG easily without negatively effecting much at all. Where people stand generally revolves around how they like the design rather than if the form was necessary.

4) Goku lowering his guard is very OOC given what we've read in Dragon Ball.

Is it really, though? He lets his guard down and is almost defeated by Piccolo jr. He lets his guard down and is knocked out by Majin Vegeta. He lets his guard down and loses to Freeza here (laser beam silliness is another matter).

Goku has definitely laid a precedent to let his guard down when he prematurely assumes a fight is over. That's what happened here.

[Grimlock]

I want to hear the mistakes that Dragon Ball RoF did.

It exists.

[WittyUsername]

I really don't get the dislike for the film. It's an enjoyable lighthearted romp, which was what all the revival material promised until Super got past the U6 arc, that nevertheless provided a new status quo (it set up everything related to Goku and Vegeta training with Whis and Beerus, and gave us Blue, which isn't anything narratively in the film but is enjoyable as spectacle and for what it promised as a new standard transformation) while being accompanied by Toriyama's dry character humor courtesy of his script.

My biggest misgivings with it are the amount of time dedicated to the peanut gallery vs. soldier fight--which is fun spectacle for a bit but runs way too long for something with a foregone conclusion (see also, Moro arc), and some rather bizarre editing and soundtrack choices in the Goku vs. Freeza fight--(although I think there's memorable choreography there too; Goku dodging Freeza's flurry of red blasts sticks with me).

For Freeza's return, he's on the one hand meant to be someone taken lightly, a la Avo and Kado in the 2008 special--a character who doesn't realize that even though he's powered up he's too little too late, becoming a training hurdle for Goku and Vegeta--and provides the sincere fun of the most memorable, long-eclipsed villain becoming the strongest again, if only for long enough to suffer a pratfall. Paving the way for his return as a permanent cast member isn't something I can give to the film, but I'm glad it wound up providing the path for that too. Freeza as someone who's a genuine threat (third strongest guy in the universe, or so) while also being on the back foot and having to evaluate his own odds and build himself up starts here, and that dynamic is a fun one when it's brought back long-term in Super (specifically because it's Freeza, having to approach things so differently than he did in the Namek arc and just generally make peace with how he assesses his lot post-defeat).

It isn't incredible, but I think it hits most of the right notes for a light-hearted DB outing--and then some in its shifting of the status-quo (even if Super commits itself a bit overzealously to "F"'s new status-quo in the aftermath)--and I really, to this day, feel that a lot of the vitriol toward it comes from fans who were expecting something completely different and rather more self-serious while following its pre-production. Taken on its own, its only great crime is being the worst of the three Toriyama-scripted films.

There’s just nothing it has to offer that you can’t get from other Dragon Ball movies. Sure, it has narrative significance for the series, but that doesn’t make it a movie that’s worth watching. It’s just boring. It has no charm to it. A Dragon Ball movie needs to do more than simply being a lighthearted romp that Toriyama wrote. BoG works as a fun reunion that introduces some (at the time) interesting new characters, while Broly has a lot of backstory that tries to flesh out the title character, as well as some really solid animation. RF has…Beerus ending told what cheese is and Whis stepping in poop.

[Cipher]

There’s just nothing it has to offer that you can’t get from other Dragon Ball movies.

It sets up a new status quo and has Toriyama on dialogue, which 17 out of 20 other Dragon Ball Movies don’t have.

It’s the weakest Toriyama-scripted film, like I said, but that doesn’t make it unenjoyable.

[GatoF]

SSG quickly becoming an useless transformation was the worst mistake. It never beat a major antagonist and never will

[WittyUsername]

There’s just nothing it has to offer that you can’t get from other Dragon Ball movies.

It sets up a new status quo and has Toriyama on dialogue, which 17 out of 20 other Dragon Ball Movies don’t have.

It’s the weakest Toriyama-scripted film, like I said, but that doesn’t make it unenjoyable.

The dialogue and humor in RF really isn’t anything great. As I said earlier in the thread, a good chunk of the dialogue is just the characters delivering really stilted exposition. Also, the only real change in the status quo that RF makes is that Whis is now training Goku and Vegeta, and the movie doesn’t even show us how they started training under him. They’re already doing that when we first see them.

[Shinsa]

When I first saw the movie I enjoyed it for what it was, a dumb fan service one off movie for 1.3 hours...however after the fact when I thought about it and about the overall canon I started to really dislike it.

The whole Frieza training in 4 mouths to unlock his potential is just purely bad writing however not the biggest mistake. I think reviving Frieza at all was a big mistake and not needed.

Since that's neither here nor there i'd say that there was no emotional stakes and a lot of character building opportunities wasted that could have justified Freeza's revival. I don't care about blue hair colour, I want to know what the characters are thinking and feeling at this big moment.
Vegeta should have been very emotional seeing Frieza again when that last time he saw him he was just revived from death. Also the fact that he was enslaved by him for most his live which would leave a huge scar on his psyche, explaining why Vegeta has such an inferiority complex.
Goku is happy go lucky but not a complete idiot. When he last saw Frieza he had just killed his best friend and fought probably the most emotionally complex battle of his life and maybe in the whole series. Hence why imo Frieza is such a powerful and popular villian.

The whole time remind was poorly implemented feeling cheap and predictable since they hit you over the head with it at the beginning of the film. Also Goku stealing the kill felt undeserved and no where near the level of when he first "killed" Frieza. Should have went to Vegeta.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Definitely agree with this. It's the most irrelevant transformation of all Dragon Ball. Every instance of super saiyan blue in all mediums could have just been SSG easily without negatively effecting much at all. Where people stand generally revolves around how they like the design rather than if the form was necessary.

I know some people really don't like SSB, but that's far from the truth. SSJ grade 2 and 3 take the place by a loong shot (literally the most useless form in the series that was never mentioned or shown again).

SSJ3 doesn't have half the screen time or relevance of Blue, and God literally disappears after its introduction. And all these forms have much worse track records. SSB, at the very least, had concepts built on top of the transformation (Blue Kaioken, God-Blue switch, Mastered SSB and Evolved Blue), which honestly is more than most forms in this series.

[Jack Bz]

Definitely agree with this. It's the most irrelevant transformation of all Dragon Ball. Every instance of super saiyan blue in all mediums could have just been SSG easily without negatively effecting much at all. Where people stand generally revolves around how they like the design rather than if the form was necessary.

I know some people really don't like SSB, but that's far from the truth. SSJ grade 2 and 3 take the place by a loong shot (literally the most useless form in the series that was never mentioned or shown again).

SSJ3 doesn't have half the screen time or relevance of Blue, and God literally disappears after its introduction. And all these forms have much worse track records. SSB, at the very least, had concepts built on top of the transformation (Blue Kaioken, God-Blue switch, Mastered SSB and Evolved Blue), which honestly is more than most forms in this series.

I disagree, and I don't think what you're saying addresses my overall point at all if you are bringing up screen time for arguments on why a form is relevant, though maybe it's my usage of irrelevant that is incorrect. Screen time and number of uses doesn't really matter here because of course blue will beat out those other transformations just due to the fact that it's been the strongest transformation for the longest duration of Dragon Ball's modern revival. I am saying the need to introduce the form instead of using super saiyan god wasn't necessary for any narrative function of RoF, and most of the latter developments of blue could have also been applied to god as well.

A transformation being useless doesn't mean it is irrelevant to the story. SSJ grade 2 and 3 play a role in the story that couldn't be played by SSJ. In fact they are basically introduced to highlight the fact that SSJ was the superior and more balanced transformation and that Goku is a fighting genius and teacher a step above Vegeta and Trunks, who realises that honing the form they have is better than trying to just overcharge it.

SSJ3 played a massive role in the Boo arc: it was a red herring whenever it appeared and, despite being insanely strong, always fails. Its usage drastically altered the story when other transformations wouldn't have, such as draining all of Goku's remaining time on earth. It was used to show that, contrary to the previous 2 arcs, a new super saiyan form won't be the answer this time, so they will need a new method. It is also the catalyst that makes Vegeta finally come to terms with the fact that Goku is better than him, and concludes his arc. Whether you like the form is another thing, but right from its introduction it has fundamentally different traits and story applications compared to what transformations came before it.

Super saiyan blue wasn't really any different from super saiyan god when it was introduced. There even used to be confusion/discussion about if it was stronger than regular super saiyan god before Super. Blue kaioken could have easily been God kaioken, same with blue complete being God complete. They elaborated on various aspects of Blue without exploring God at all. I think it sticks out like a sore thumb when you apply the narrative reasons other transformations were introduced (except SSBE which I wasn't really thinking of, and is the worst of the bunch)

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Resurrection F i feel is the weakest of the post 2012 revival Toriyama helmed films, it's literally just bringing back Freeza who's already been brought back before more than once. Battle of Gods is a reunion type movie in the vein of the 2008 JSAT special and introduced Beerus and Whis who are some of my favorite characters of the modern DB era, and DBS: Broly took a pre existing character with delving further into his backstory and basically reinventing him from the berserker character we saw in his prior appearances.

This isn't a bad movie per se, but it definitely isn't the best though there are a few of the older ones i'd still place behind it like DBZ movies 4, 7 and 10.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I disagree, and I don't think what you're saying addresses my overall point at all if you are bringing up screen time for arguments on why a form is relevant, though maybe it's my usage of irrelevant that is incorrect. Screen time and number of uses doesn't really matter here because of course blue will beat out those other transformations just due to the fact that it's been the strongest transformation for the longest duration of Dragon Ball's modern revival. I am saying the need to introduce the form instead of using super saiyan god wasn't necessary for any narrative function of RoF, and most of the latter developments of blue could have also been applied to god as well.

I think I've misinterpreted what you meant by irrelevant now that you've explained it, but some of your points still feel like a stretch to give more meaning or relevance to the forms mentioned.

A transformation being useless doesn't mean it is irrelevant to the story. SSJ grade 2 and 3 play a role in the story that couldn't be played by SSJ. In fact they are basically introduced to highlight the fact that SSJ was the superior and more balanced transformation and that Goku is a fighting genius and teacher a step above Vegeta and Trunks, who realises that honing the form they have is better than trying to just overcharge it.

SSJ grade 2/3 does play a role in the Cell arc, but I fail to see how this is such a big deal when the relevance of this transformation comes down to being fuel for a form that came before, and that has become so outdated to the point of not making a single appearance for the rest of the series (disregarding flashbacks and the sparring between Vegeta and Trunks in the anime). If the role played by a form during a specific moment is the deciding factor, then Blue played a much more important role in the Champa tournament and Future Trunks arc in the manga, narratively speaking.

SSJ3 played a massive role in the Boo arc: it was a red herring whenever it appeared and, despite being insanely strong, always fails. Its usage drastically altered the story when other transformations wouldn't have, such as draining all of Goku's remaining time on earth. It was used to show that, contrary to the previous 2 arcs, a new super saiyan form won't be the answer this time, so they will need a new method. It is also the catalyst that makes Vegeta finally come to terms with the fact that Goku is better than him, and concludes his arc. Whether you like the form is another thing, but right from its introduction it has fundamentally different traits and story applications compared to what transformations came before it.

Bolded words: this seems much more like the result of SSJ3's bad track record than the purpose for the transformation to exist, especially considering that there is no implication in the story that this was Toriyama's intention when he created the form (actually the feel of SSJ3 is much more that of a last minute power up, since it didn't have any build up and happened suddenly). SSJ3 was also not really necessary for Vegeta to admit that Goku was the best in the end, as something similar had already happened at the beginning of Boo arc when he realized that Goku was one step ahead of him in equal forms (SSJ2), which was the catalyst for him to want to be controlled by Babidi in the first place.

Super saiyan blue wasn't really any different from super saiyan god when it was introduced. There even used to be confusion/discussion about if it was stronger than regular super saiyan god before Super. Blue kaioken could have easily been God kaioken, same with blue complete being God complete. They elaborated on various aspects of Blue without exploring God at all. I think it sticks out like a sore thumb when you apply the narrative reasons other transformations were introduced (except SSBE which I wasn't really thinking of, and is the worst of the bunch)

In fact, the narrative impact of the introduction of the SSB is almost zero and is one of the reasons for this transformation being criticized. But I still think it's important to consider the role played by this form in later arcs, how it's been explored, and its longevity compared to other forms. Despite the problematic introduction, it turned out to be a transformation that was better explored conceptually than several previous ones in the series.

[SuperSunnyDee]

- Frieza is a joke in this film. He makes rookie mistakes that make him look like an idiot like apparently just rushing to earth the moment he unlocked a new form. And only briefly does he manage to get the upper hand against Goku when there’s three more powerful people within a few square feet of the fight.

I think that's very in character. In the original manga/anime he rushes to earth as soon as he can after Goku defeats him, and gets killed easily. He makes that same mistake in this film. He kind of genuinely is a bit of an idiot. He's also a martial arts scrub who was born into power and doesn't know how to use it (has to create transformations to contain his power, doesn't know how to sense ki), so him not even realising that his new form has a huge weakness and wanting to enact his revenge straight away is appropriate in my eyes.

Freeza has literally never trained before until this film. He is a rookie, in both the original run and this film. It follows that he will make rookie mistakes.

The issue I have with that is even if it is in character for Frieza, he is our main villain and he’s already difficult to take seriously considering how badly outmatched he already is. Rushing headstrong into a fight he can’t win already looks bad on him. I would’ve preferred it if they spared him looking like an absolute moron if he had learned some tips during his training instead of just doing what he did and rush towards defeat.