The Manga is no more canon than the anime right?

[Dragon Wukong]

I think it's worth something to point out, but like...

We had SSG Vegeta in DBS Broly, after never appearing in the anime and consistent usage in the manga.

And now for Super Hero, Gohan's first movie usage since Resurrection F, he's using his Piccolo outfit ala the DBS manga, only with the original Z manga colors.

Just... Kinda more examples of "canonicity" leaning in a certain direction, y'know?

[SupremeKai25]

I think it's worth something to point out, but like...

We had SSG Vegeta in DBS Broly, after never appearing in the anime and consistent usage in the manga.

And now for Super Hero, Gohan's first movie usage since Resurrection F, he's using his Piccolo outfit ala the DBS manga, only with the original Z manga colors.

Just... Kinda more examples of "canonicity" leaning in a certain direction, y'know?

And in the Broly movie Goku cites Kefla and Ribrianne as "ridiculously strong", when in the manga they were both fodder (while in the anime Kefla was so powerful that she forced Goku to use Ultra Instinct, while Ribrianne was a constant and recurring thorn in U7's side).

You're seeing things that aren't there and definitely weren't in the writers' mind.

[Dragon Wukong]

And in the Broly movie Goku cites Kefla and Ribrianne as "ridiculously strong", when in the manga they were both fodder (while in the anime Kefla was so powerful that she forced Goku to use Ultra Instinct, while Ribrianne was a constant and recurring thorn in U7's side).

You're seeing things that aren't there and definitely weren't in the writers' mind.

Goku didn't specifically comment on Kefla or Ribrianne's strength (he saw the former's in the manga, praising Gohan directly, which is about equivalent to the level of interaction he had with Ribrianne in the anime, even though she wasn't particularly strong there either.) Said eyecatch also included the Gods of Destruction, who he only saw fight in the manga.

Note that in either continuity, Goku is impressed by Kefla's strength anyhow, while Ribrianne is only ever at most a thorn in 18's side. So even if it were commentary on their strength, it still fits either continuity.

Without any more specific accompanying dialogue, it can be safe to assume that particular scene was merely an eyecatch of the characters that were featured in the arc, with the detail of strength mostly referring to Jiren.

[SupremeKai25]

And in the Broly movie Goku cites Kefla and Ribrianne as "ridiculously strong", when in the manga they were both fodder (while in the anime Kefla was so powerful that she forced Goku to use Ultra Instinct, while Ribrianne was a constant and recurring thorn in U7's side).

You're seeing things that aren't there and definitely weren't in the writers' mind.

Goku didn't specifically comment on Kefla or Ribrianne's strength (he saw the former's in the manga, praising Gohan directly, which is about equivalent to the level of interaction he had with Ribrianne in the anime, even though she wasn't particularly strong there either.) Said eyecatch also included the Gods of Destruction, who he only saw fight in the manga.

Without any more specific accompanying dialogue, it can be safe to assume that particular scene was merely an eyecatch of the characters that were featured in the arc, with the detail of strength mostly referring to Jiren.

Okay so I guess that Toei Animations (the guys making the product) basically shat on the anime they made and all the videogame and merchandise that are based on said anime, basically telling the audience "you can skip our filler show".

Yep, don't see a problem with that logic. I'd do the same thing if I was an executive at Toei.

[Dragon Wukong]

Okay so I guess that Toei Animations (the guys making the product) basically shat on the anime they made and all the videogame and merchandise that is based on said anime.

Yep, don't see a problem with that logic. I'd do the same thing if I was an executive at Toei.

I don't know why it'd be equivalent to being "shat" on the anime. As far as the videogame and merchandise stuff, more likely a matter of licensing if anything, since manga-only designs can't be referenced in games and what-not until they're animated. It's not exactly Toei's fault manga-only designs/plots had to come out later and couldn't be used in the anime on due to the nature of how DBS was developed. But that also doesn't mean that manga-stuff isn't taking some kind of precedence, based on what we can see happening in the movies. I would assume this is largely in part to how closely Toyotaro has been working with Toriyama anyhow.

Bleach has had the exact same issue where TYBW-arc stuff in video-games need to be licensed separately from everything else due to its status as an arc that wasn't adapted into an anime (yet).

[SupremeKai25]

Okay so I guess that Toei Animations (the guys making the product) basically shat on the anime they made and all the videogame and merchandise that is based on said anime.

Yep, don't see a problem with that logic. I'd do the same thing if I was an executive at Toei.

I don't know why it'd be equivalent to being "shat" on the anime. As far as the videogame and merchandise stuff, more likely a matter of licensing if anything, since manga-only designs can't be referenced in games and what-not until they're animated.

Bleach has had the exact same issue where TYBW-arc stuff in video-games need to be licensed separately from everything else due to its status as an arc that wasn't adapted into an anime (yet).

Right, because I'm sure people on the internet don't use "non-canon" as a derogatory term to shit on a given product

[Dragon Wukong]

Right, because I'm sure people on the internet don't use "non-canon" as a derogatory term to shit on a given product

If you look back through this thread, you can see plenty of examples where that's actually not the case. It's actually a worthwhile discussion, especially when trying to predict the direction the franchise as a whole will be going down the line now that the anime and manga aren't being developed in parallel.

[SupremeKai25]

Right, because I'm sure people on the internet don't use "non-canon" as a derogatory term to shit on a given product

If you look back through this thread, you can see plenty of examples where that's actually not the case. It's actually a worthwhile discussion, especially when trying to predict the direction the franchise as a whole will be going down the line now that the anime and manga aren't being developed in parallel.

It seems like a pointless discussion all things considered.

Do we even know if "canon" as a word exists in the Japanese dictionary/Culture?

Hence why I told you that the things you are looking for, aren't actually there. I don't think the Toei producers were trying to get you to read the manga when they coloured Gohan's shirt in a certain way...

[Dragon Wukong]

It seems like a pointless discussion all things considered.

Do we even know if "canon" as a word exists in the Japanese dictionary/Culture?

Hence why I told you that the things you are looking for, aren't actually there. I don't think the Toei producers were trying to get you to read the manga when they coloured Gohan's shirt in a certain way...

The word, if I recall, is "seishi" or something. And yes, it has been used and advertised almost exclusively in regard to the DBS manga as a successor to the original Z manga in Japan. It's popped up quite a few times, I believe on one of the walls at comic-con that used exclusively DBS manga art, as well as advertising for the DBS manga in Japan.

It's also not the color of Gohan's shirt. It's his outfit. He's using Piccolo's entire ensemble, down to the pointy boots. He used it once during the Cell Games, and hasn't been using it consistently until the DBS manga where it became his default outfit since the Tournament of Power.

[SupremeKai25]

It seems like a pointless discussion all things considered.

Do we even know if "canon" as a word exists in the Japanese dictionary/Culture?

Hence why I told you that the things you are looking for, aren't actually there. I don't think the Toei producers were trying to get you to read the manga when they coloured Gohan's shirt in a certain way...

The word, if I recall, is "seishi" or something. And yes, it has been used and advertised almost exclusively in regard to the DBS manga as a successor to the original Z manga in Japan. It's popped up quite a few times, I believe on one of the walls at comic-con that used exclusively DBS manga art, as well as advertising for the DBS manga in Japan.

It's also not the color of Gohan's shirt. It's his outfit. He's using Piccolo's entire ensemble, down to the pointy boots. He used it once during the Cell Games, and hasn't been using it consistently until the DBS manga where it became his default outfit since the Tournament of Power.

Doesn't really mean anything.

Plus you never want to try and say that one of your product is "more canon" than another, look the mess Disney made when they invalidated the EU and said it wasn't canon anymore, it was extremely controversial and they got a lot of hate for it.

Even GT despite being called a "side adventure" by Toriyama was never explicitly deemed "non-canon", and it still gets a bone thrown at it in Dragon Ball Heroes.

So Yeah, I think you are overthinking a lot of things

[Dragon Wukong]

Doesn't really mean anything.

Plus you never want to try and say that one of your product is "more canon" than another, look the mess Disney made when they invalidated the EU and said it wasn't canon anymore, it was extremely controversial and they got a lot of hate for it.

Even GT despite being called a "side adventure" by Toriyama was never explicitly deemed "non-canon", and it still gets a bone thrown at it in Dragon Ball Heroes.

So Yeah, I think you are overthinking a lot of things

GT is pretty definitively non-canon. The premise for a majority of its story hinges on Z anime filler that outright conflicts with the original manga. Those two continuities cannot exist in the same space and make any kind of sense together. Shueisha (Dragon Ball's publisher) themselves have been rather rigorous in referring to Super (again, mostly in the context of the manga so far) as the "Canonical Sequel", absolutely acknowledging GT as something that isn't one.

You may have a different personal definition for what you consider canonical or non-canonical, however, and that's ok, but I think it'd do you well to look into and respect the origin of this discussion and not just deem it "overthinking".

[Grimlock]

Do we even know if "canon" as a word exists in the Japanese dictionary/Culture?

It would seem it doesn't.

The word in question, "正史 - seishi", does not translate to "canon". Whenever you see that, it's entirely an arbitrary choice of the translator to sow chaos and war in the fandom to use that word in this context (at least when it comes to Dragon Ball, of course).

Linguee, Google Translate, other sources out there.

Noticed something? Correct, all of them say the exact same thing, "authentic work", "official work". Needless to say, all licensed works are official and authentic. Thus rendering "seishi" a useless word, unrelated to canonicity. "Seishi" does not even start to describe the actual meaning of "canon" as per the sources I've provided in other threads. It merely denotes an official work, separating it from unofficial works (fanfic, for example).

Google also provide a bit of context and a more detailed meaning for "正史 - seishi":



And then there is "正統続編" (found in that said wall) which I couldn't even find sources able to translate it, except for this one. But what does it mean to be an "orthodox/legitimate" sequel anyway? In Dragon Ball Super's case, it's not like there's another series set after Majin Buu saga and before the 28th tournament, so why would you bother labeling it as such if it's the only one with such characteristic? Or is there indeed another midquel out there set in the same timeframe as Dragon Ball Super?

Note: "正史" has never been officially translated in context like this and "正統続編" would seem it wasn't translated by Shueisha itself, but by someone else (someone from Viz, if I remember correctly). We would need more information and confirmation on that, though. And then we would need to discuss if "Viz" has any authority to establish a canon in a franchise they don't own.

[SupremeKai25]

Doesn't really mean anything.

Plus you never want to try and say that one of your product is "more canon" than another, look the mess Disney made when they invalidated the EU and said it wasn't canon anymore, it was extremely controversial and they got a lot of hate for it.

Even GT despite being called a "side adventure" by Toriyama was never explicitly deemed "non-canon", and it still gets a bone thrown at it in Dragon Ball Heroes.

So Yeah, I think you are overthinking a lot of things

GT is pretty definitively non-canon. The premise for a majority of its story hinges on Z anime filler that outright conflicts with the original manga. Those two continuities cannot exist in the same space and make any kind of sense together. Shueisha (Dragon Ball's publisher) themselves have been rather rigorous in referring to Super (again, mostly in the context of the manga so far) as the "Canonical Sequel", absolutely acknowledging GT as something that isn't one.

You may have a different personal definition for what you consider canonical or non-canonical, however, and that's ok, but I think it'd do you well to look into and respect the origin of this discussion and not just deem it "overthinking".

I deem it "overthinking" because I don't believe the executives at Toei were thinking "let's throw in these little details so that mega fans will know that we are leaning towards "manga canon"". It's a nice little discussion but ultimately pointless, because I doubt the mere concept of "canon" even exists in their head.

And even then, if they wanted to, they'd just come out and say it like Disney did. Not colour Gohan's costume in a certain way lol.

Also btw Gohan in the new movie uses Super Saiyan, he said in the manga to Kefla that he would evolve as an earthling and not a saiyan and thereby he never used it in the manga. So why is he using it in the movie?

As I told you, you are seeing things that aren't there. These are all just coincidences, there's no underlying meaning.

Then people say "oh but why did Goku never used Kaioken SSB in the Broly movie", because clearly nothing he did would matter against Broly so it was pointless to use a life-risking move, better to just fuse and pray for the best. There's no ulterior motivation relating to "canon".

[Kataphrut]

I think it’s hilarious that people try to cherry pick details from the movies to determine which canon they apparently favour. When really the movies occupy a broad middle ground because they’re aimed at more casual fans who like Dragon Ball but might not be up on all the details of the tv/manga arcs like Akita Toriyama.

I mean hey, the latest trailer for the new one has Gohan going Super Saiyan. You know, the form he was never gonna use again because he wanted to unlock a new power beyond Ultimate/improve as a human respectively? Which version is canon? Apparently neither.

[SupremeKai25]

I think it’s hilarious that people try to cherry pick details from the movies to determine which canon they apparently favour. When really the movies occupy a broad middle ground because they’re aimed at more casual fans who like Dragon Ball but might not be up on all the details of the tv/manga arcs like Akita Toriyama.

I mean hey, the latest trailer for the new one has Gohan going Super Saiyan. You know, the form he was never gonna use again because he wanted to unlock a new power beyond Ultimate/improve as a human respectively? Which version is canon? Apparently neither.

Yes, indeed.

And it's pretty hard to claim that the manga is "more canon" than the anime when it completely skips the RoF and Broly story arcs...

[Skar]

I deem it "overthinking" because I don't believe the executives at Toei were thinking "let's throw in these little details so that mega fans will know that we are leaning towards "manga canon"". It's a nice little discussion but ultimately pointless, because I doubt the mere concept of "canon" even exists in their head.

To be honest I think "overthinking" would be reaching that conclusion from what he's saying. I don't think they care about a specific canon or confirming one over the other. They're working on the same team and making two alternate versions of Toriyama's outlines that are considered both valid.

The movies might have a shared continuity taking into account only what Toriyama has written. Broly didn't include any of the anime or manga exclusive Blue powerups and Gogeta was the first fusion that Freeza met despite seeing Gotenks in the anime and Kefla in both versions. It's not like any of that was intended to discredit or deem them as "non-canon" and it's probably that Toriyama would only bother to keep track of what he wrote himself in previous movies or outlines.

[HeroR]

I think it’s hilarious that people try to cherry pick details from the movies to determine which canon they apparently favour. When really the movies occupy a broad middle ground because they’re aimed at more casual fans who like Dragon Ball but might not be up on all the details of the tv/manga arcs like Akita Toriyama.

I mean hey, the latest trailer for the new one has Gohan going Super Saiyan. You know, the form he was never gonna use again because he wanted to unlock a new power beyond Ultimate/improve as a human respectively? Which version is canon? Apparently neither.

That isn't what Gohan actually said in the anime. He said he wanted to unlocked his own Ultimate form, which I personally read as him improving his Ultimate form over just stacking new forms.

I deem it "overthinking" because I don't believe the executives at Toei were thinking "let's throw in these little details so that mega fans will know that we are leaning towards "manga canon"". It's a nice little discussion but ultimately pointless, because I doubt the mere concept of "canon" even exists in their head.

To be honest I think "overthinking" would be reaching that conclusion from what he's saying. I don't think they care about a specific canon or confirming one over the other. They're working on the same team and making two alternate versions of Toriyama's outlines that are considered both valid.

The movies might have a shared continuity taking into account only what Toriyama has written. Broly didn't include any of the anime or manga exclusive Blue powerups and Gogeta was the first fusion that Freeza met despite seeing Gotenks in the anime and Kefla in both versions. It's not like any of that was intended to discredit or deem them as "non-canon" and it's probably that Toriyama would only bother to keep track of what he wrote himself in previous movies or outlines.

Kefla was also shown in Goku's flashback of the TOP in the movie. So even in the movie, Frieza knows about Kelfa.

[SupremeKai25]

With how forgetful Toriyama is, people are putting way too much focus on that detail of Frieza not knowing what Fusion is. It's obviously just a writer's oversight.

[Skar]

For some reason I can't reply to HeroR's comment. I doubt Toriyama wrote down which exact characters were going to appear in that flashback. It showed some gods that Goku only saw fighting in the manga GoD battle royale. Broly is a sequel to both versions of the story but my point was that Toriyama likely only remembers what he wrote in previous movies or outlines. I recall Toei created Kefla so I don't think Toriyama wouldn't taken her into account or Gotenks' anime only appearance when writing Broly.

[Kataphrut]

With how forgetful Toriyama is, people are putting way too much focus on that detail of Frieza not knowing what Fusion is. It's obviously just a writer's oversight.

Vegeta apparently didn’t even know what fusion is despite him seeing Gotenks at Bulma’s birthday. That’s how light on the details these movies are.