GT vs Super

[ABED]

The Bardock TV special was never explicitly stated to be in continuity, Broly was never in continuity either so not a retcon, and the latest two movies weren't outright contradicted as much as expanded on and changed in small ways. This isn't the same as making significant changes to characters in continuity whose fates we know.

[MasenkoHA]

The Bardock TV special was never explicitly stated to be in continuity,

As far as the anime was concerned, I think it was understood the tv special was in continuity with the show. It’s footage was used in Z episode 86 and it didn’t contradict anything. So if we’re going by Super (the anime) is in theory a follow up to Z it did retcon out the the tv special. “This never happened” I know this forum can get in a tizzy about continuity vs canon and what is and what isn’t but I’d say the Bardock tv special wasn’t part of the anime’s continuity (until Super Broli said it wasn’t)but wasn’t really canon.


[

, and the latest two movies weren't outright contradicted as much as expanded on and changed in small ways. This isn't the same as making significant changes to characters in continuity whose fates we know.

But retelling them does essentially throw them out of continuity. Battle of Gods and the Beerus arc can’t both happen.

[Koitsukai]

You can't compare a meaningless comment about how many years have gone by, that absolutely means nothing in the great scheme of things with how two characters are actually portrayed, you are literally asking to retcon characters, not a throw away phrase like Bulma's, that is not even being retconned, it's just coming out as inaccurate and like by only two years, not 10, so the inaccuracy of Bulma could even be just a figure of speech. Besides, it's still a harmless line, I wouldn't be surprised if they meet in Super Hero and nothing important will be changed by that.

Like I said in the bolded part, I'm not against them regaining their mojo after EoZ, and it's already too late for them to do that now prior to the Tournament. They have to be shown how the author portrayed them to be, their chance to shine without stepping all over the original material was before the Zamasu arc or the ToP.

To be fair, it would recon characters that we saw for a fraction of--what--three episodes? Super has retconed the immensely popular Bardock TV special, the immensely popular Broli character, and the two latest Z movies. I don't think it would be too far off a stretch if they just retconed Goten and Trunks from the end of Z.

I will say that if they ever reenact the end of Z and Bulma does her five years line, I'd get a kick out of it if it cut to one of the other characters' thoughts saying something to the effect that she's being way too overdramatic.

Those characters weren't retconned because they were never part of the main continuity nor developed by Toriyama. They still exist in their own continuity.

Toriyama was introducing into his work existing ideas from his personal perspective.
He wasn't backtracking on people or stories written by himself. Well, besides Goku's origin but that was never set in stone to begin with, not like Goten and Trunks' characterizations were.

[TheGreatness25]

You can't compare a meaningless comment about how many years have gone by, that absolutely means nothing in the great scheme of things with how two characters are actually portrayed, you are literally asking to retcon characters, not a throw away phrase like Bulma's, that is not even being retconned, it's just coming out as inaccurate and like by only two years, not 10, so the inaccuracy of Bulma could even be just a figure of speech. Besides, it's still a harmless line, I wouldn't be surprised if they meet in Super Hero and nothing important will be changed by that.

Like I said in the bolded part, I'm not against them regaining their mojo after EoZ, and it's already too late for them to do that now prior to the Tournament. They have to be shown how the author portrayed them to be, their chance to shine without stepping all over the original material was before the Zamasu arc or the ToP.

To be fair, it would recon characters that we saw for a fraction of--what--three episodes? Super has retconed the immensely popular Bardock TV special, the immensely popular Broli character, and the two latest Z movies. I don't think it would be too far off a stretch if they just retconed Goten and Trunks from the end of Z.

I will say that if they ever reenact the end of Z and Bulma does her five years line, I'd get a kick out of it if it cut to one of the other characters' thoughts saying something to the effect that she's being way too overdramatic.

Those characters weren't retconned because they were never part of the main continuity nor developed by Toriyama. They still exist in their own continuity.

Toriyama was introducing into his work existing ideas from his personal perspective.
He wasn't backtracking on people or stories written by himself. Well, besides Goku's origin but that was never set in stone to begin with, not like Goten and Trunks' characterizations were.

But things change. Akira Toriyama didn't plan on continuing the series, but here we are. And after everything that happened in Super, is the Goten and Trunks thing a big deal? But, hey, let's face it: they won't be big players anyway.

[ABED]

The Bardock TV special was never explicitly stated to be in continuity,

As far as the anime was concerned, I think it was understood the tv special was in continuity with the show. It’s footage was used in Z episode 86 and it didn’t contradict anything. So if we’re going by Super (the anime) is in theory a follow up to Z it did retcon out the the tv special. “This never happened” I know this forum can get in a tizzy about continuity vs canon and what is and what isn’t but I’d say the Bardock tv special wasn’t part of the anime’s continuity (until Super Broli said it wasn’t)but wasn’t really canon.


[

, and the latest two movies weren't outright contradicted as much as expanded on and changed in small ways. This isn't the same as making significant changes to characters in continuity whose fates we know.

But retelling them does essentially throw them out of continuity. Battle of Gods and the Beerus arc can’t both happen.

It was just assumed and what about taking that out of continuity makes any significant difference to DB?

I understand the arcs and the movies can't both have happened but the events are pretty much the same.

Neither change would be as significant as making Trunks and Goten different than they were at the end of the manga.

[TheGreatness25]

The Bardock TV special was never explicitly stated to be in continuity,

As far as the anime was concerned, I think it was understood the tv special was in continuity with the show. It’s footage was used in Z episode 86 and it didn’t contradict anything. So if we’re going by Super (the anime) is in theory a follow up to Z it did retcon out the the tv special. “This never happened” I know this forum can get in a tizzy about continuity vs canon and what is and what isn’t but I’d say the Bardock tv special wasn’t part of the anime’s continuity (until Super Broli said it wasn’t)but wasn’t really canon.


[

, and the latest two movies weren't outright contradicted as much as expanded on and changed in small ways. This isn't the same as making significant changes to characters in continuity whose fates we know.

But retelling them does essentially throw them out of continuity. Battle of Gods and the Beerus arc can’t both happen.

It was just assumed and what about taking that out of continuity makes any significant difference to DB?

I understand the arcs and the movies can't both have happened but the events are pretty much the same.

Neither change would be as significant as making Trunks and Goten different than they were at the end of the manga.

But how were they at the end of the manga? If we accept that Bulma's line about not seeing Goku in five years could be overlooked, so too could we overlook that anyone said anything about Goten and Trunks slacking off. Otherwise, what did we see out of them? We saw that in base form, Goten was weaker than Goku and that they were normal teenagers. Them gaining power before then won't seriously change their character. They'll all be weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

We also saw Kuririn totally inactive, having let his hair grow and get grey. We saw Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Gohan on the sidelines. Are they any less contradicted seeing how active they were just a few years before this?

I just think that this stuff isn't worth over-analyzing. The game has changed since then. There was never a plan to revisit those events, so they were written with finality. So, yeah, now we'll watch and go, "Hm, that's a contradiction," and move on because in the grand scheme of things, most people will never even notice that there's a contradiction unless someone puts it in front of them.

I think that's why it needed Battle of Gods and then Super contradicting GT, the Broli movie contradicting previous Broli movies and the Bardock special, etc. The series had to rip apart its own continuity and make people confortable with the changes that inevitably had to be made.

Anyway, you're free to look at it however you'd like. I just sincerely hope everyone can find their own enjoyment in the product.

[super michael]

DBO is a game, so that's that.
Black couldn't transform and still was way above Future Trunks, an adult, more experienced and stronger version of present Trunks.

We didn't know for sure if Gohan stopped training by EoZ, he just wears his glasses, he didn't get clear cut statements like the other kids, who vocally expressed their lack of interest in fighting and training. There’s no going around that.
Sure, it was implied Gohan stopped training, but after DBS we have to assume he just came from work or whatever, because DBS made him a fighter, and he keeps training even to this day. So, it’s sort of a retcon but actually it is not with Gohan.

The kids were set, from the get go, to reach EoZ completely sick of fighting and training, they say so, it's not something we assume based on their designs, therefore making them fight in DBS would contradict the original manga.
This time period was the time where they found new interests, this is the time period when they fall out of love, sort of speak, with training. Even if it's for just a while, even if after EoZ they make peace with it and become even stronger, this is the time when they take a break.

Everything you propose, would go against their pre-destined lives written by the author.

I won't argue that there were better ways to make that journey much more organic and natural for them(like on another thread another user proposed), than just sidelining them or pretending they don't exist, but if they were to fight, it had to be back in the early portion of DBS, by now, so close to EoZ, it's too late and they must be out of touch with fighting and training just like they were by the end of Dragonball.

I just want to mention that DBS has ignored that Goku doesn't see Bulma in 5 years in EOZ, yet in DBS Goku has met Bulma in Broly movie which Bra has aged. Goku was with Chi Chi and Bulma in the Moro chapter.

If in the movie Bulma and Goku are together that is even more contradiction.

If they can ignore Bulma statement of not seeing Goku for 5 years, then surely they can ignore that statement of Goten and Trunks being slacker.

We know they are slacker in EOZ, but we don't know when exactly, just because they are slackers in EOZ specifically doesn't mean they can't stop being slackers later on or before EOZ.

You can't compare a meaningless comment about how many years have gone by, that absolutely means nothing in the great scheme of things with how two characters are actually portrayed, you are literally asking to retcon characters, not a throw away phrase like Bulma's, that is not even being retconned, it's just coming out as inaccurate and like by only two years, not 10, so the inaccuracy of Bulma could even be just a figure of speech. Besides, it's still a harmless line, I wouldn't be surprised if they meet in Super Hero and nothing important will be changed by that.

Like I said in the bolded part, I'm not against them regaining their mojo after EoZ, and it's already too late for them to do that now prior to the Tournament. They have to be shown how the author portrayed them to be, their chance to shine without stepping all over the original material was before the Zamasu arc or the ToP.

The only thing we know in EOZ is they got lazy, but we don't know if they stopped training completely. Maybe doing light training or 1 time a week training is considered lazy for Goku and Vegeta. There was no statement that they got weaker in EOZ.
The only fact we know is that Goten wasn't happy to fight Buu, indicating Goten is weaker than Buu.

In the Buu Saga when Gohan stopped training for 7 years, we got multiple statement that he was weaker than his Cell Game self.

[ABED]

Nothing was being overanalyzed. This isn't even relegated to dialog, it's in their overall demeanor. They aren't taking their training seriously.

the Broli movie contradicting previous Broli movies and the Bardock special, etc. The series had to rip apart its own continuity and make people confortable with the changes that inevitably had to be made.

Again, the movies were never in continuity so there is no contradiction.

[Koitsukai]

I just want to mention that DBS has ignored that Goku doesn't see Bulma in 5 years in EOZ, yet in DBS Goku has met Bulma in Broly movie which Bra has aged. Goku was with Chi Chi and Bulma in the Moro chapter.

If in the movie Bulma and Goku are together that is even more contradiction.

If they can ignore Bulma statement of not seeing Goku for 5 years, then surely they can ignore that statement of Goten and Trunks being slacker.

We know they are slacker in EOZ, but we don't know when exactly, just because they are slackers in EOZ specifically doesn't mean they can't stop being slackers later on or before EOZ.

You can't compare a meaningless comment about how many years have gone by, that absolutely means nothing in the great scheme of things with how two characters are actually portrayed, you are literally asking to retcon characters, not a throw away phrase like Bulma's, that is not even being retconned, it's just coming out as inaccurate and like by only two years, not 10, so the inaccuracy of Bulma could even be just a figure of speech. Besides, it's still a harmless line, I wouldn't be surprised if they meet in Super Hero and nothing important will be changed by that.

Like I said in the bolded part, I'm not against them regaining their mojo after EoZ, and it's already too late for them to do that now prior to the Tournament. They have to be shown how the author portrayed them to be, their chance to shine without stepping all over the original material was before the Zamasu arc or the ToP.

The only thing we know in EOZ is they got lazy, but we don't know if they stopped training completely. Maybe doing light training or 1 time a week training is considered lazy for Goku and Vegeta. There was no statement that they got weaker in EOZ.
The only fact we know is that Goten wasn't happy to fight Buu, indicating Goten is weaker than Buu.

In the Buu Saga when Gohan stopped training for 7 years, we got multiple statement that he was weaker than his Cell Game self.

We know they no longer wanted to train or fight, we know their motivations and that's enough.

Power levels have nothing to do with it, not everything is power-related.

[Skar]

But how were they at the end of the manga? If we accept that Bulma's line about not seeing Goku in five years could be overlooked, so too could we overlook that anyone said anything about Goten and Trunks slacking off. Otherwise, what did we see out of them? We saw that in base form, Goten was weaker than Goku and that they were normal teenagers. Them gaining power before then won't seriously change their character. They'll all be weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

We also saw Kuririn totally inactive, having let his hair grow and get grey. We saw Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Gohan on the sidelines. Are they any less contradicted seeing how active they were just a few years before this?

I get where you're coming from but I think it's important to consider the reason for that discrepancy. Toriyama could've overlooked Bulma's line and only remembered that she said it's been a few years. He might've decided to treat it as rough estimate to have more stories take place before EoZ. It's easier to retcon or ignore a line of dialogue than a character.

Goten and Trunks haven't done anything in DBS aside from some gag scenes so I think it's unlikely Toriyama would decide to retcon their characterization in EoZ and have them train seriously again. EoZ is still being released with copies of the manga and DBZ anime and it's not like it'll be redrawn or reanimated for future releases. DBS is still ongoing so it'll be easier to have it lead into EoZ than the change the existing ending for it.

If the other characters retire again by then, there wouldn't be any contradiction. In the Super Hero trailer, Vegeta is wearing his Buu saga gi again so it might be intended for all the characters to revert back to how they were back then. That could include Krillin growing back his hair and Gohan focusing on studying. The trailer also showed Gohan in SSJ which he hasn't used since training for the ToP so he might've slacked off and lost his ultimate form again.

[TheGreatness25]

But how were they at the end of the manga? If we accept that Bulma's line about not seeing Goku in five years could be overlooked, so too could we overlook that anyone said anything about Goten and Trunks slacking off. Otherwise, what did we see out of them? We saw that in base form, Goten was weaker than Goku and that they were normal teenagers. Them gaining power before then won't seriously change their character. They'll all be weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

We also saw Kuririn totally inactive, having let his hair grow and get grey. We saw Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Gohan on the sidelines. Are they any less contradicted seeing how active they were just a few years before this?

I get where you're coming from but I think it's important to consider the reason for that discrepancy. Toriyama could've overlooked Bulma's line and only remembered that she said it's been a few years. He might've decided to treat it as rough estimate to have more stories take place before EoZ. It's easier to retcon or ignore a line of dialogue than a character.

Goten and Trunks haven't done anything in DBS aside from some gag scenes so I think it's unlikely Toriyama would decide to retcon their characterization in EoZ and have them train seriously again. EoZ is still being released with copies of the manga and DBZ anime and it's not like it'll be redrawn or reanimated for future releases. DBS is still ongoing so it'll be easier to have it lead into EoZ than the change the existing ending for it.

If the other characters retire again by then, there wouldn't be any contradiction. In the Super Hero trailer, Vegeta is wearing his Buu saga gi again so it might be intended for all the characters to revert back to how they were back then. That could include Krillin growing back his hair and Gohan focusing on studying. The trailer also showed Gohan in SSJ which he hasn't used since training for the ToP so he might've slacked off and lost his ultimate form again.

But what exactly will the contradiction be, though? Nobody said that Goten and Trunks will be pushing themselves to the max to train and want to be serious fighters. That's really the only way that their characters will be contracted.

[Skar]

But what exactly will the contradiction be, though? Nobody said that Goten and Trunks will be pushing themselves to the max to train and want to be serious fighters. That's really the only way that their characters will be contracted.

Oh ok. I might've misunderstood and I thought you wanted them to have a bigger role when you brought up how Krillin was active again. They're still muscular so I assumed they kept up with basic training but not enough to get noticeably stronger since it doesn't seem they've achieved SSJ2.

[TheGreatness25]

But what exactly will the contradiction be, though? Nobody said that Goten and Trunks will be pushing themselves to the max to train and want to be serious fighters. That's really the only way that their characters will be contracted.

Oh ok. I might've misunderstood and I thought you wanted them to have a bigger role when you brought up how Krillin was active again. They're still muscular so I assumed they kept up with basic training but not enough to get noticeably stronger since it doesn't seem they've achieved SSJ2.

Unless they're trying to reaching Super Saiyan Blue, I'm sure Vegeta and Goku would say that they're slacking off. The muscle mass is just an art style--I can overlook it.

[Hellspawn28]

Super Hero is giving Gohan the spotlight role again. Something that GT barely did.

[PurestEvil]

Super Hero is giving Gohan the spotlight role again. Something that GT barely did.

Not just Super Hero, we already saw Gohan fight well in the DBS TV series and manga

[Skar]

Unless they're trying to reaching Super Saiyan Blue, I'm sure Vegeta and Goku would say that they're slacking off. The muscle mass is just an art style--I can overlook it.

Are you saying they might have something beyond SSJ1? Future Trunks needed to trigger SSJ2 like Gohan so I can't see Goten and Trunks training enough to unlock a new form on their own.

[dva_raza]

Are you team Super or team GT?

100% team Super.
It’s kinda simple for me, I think Super is good, and GT is bad lol.

With Super my only complaint is the bad art. But that's easy to ignore when it has a good story, characters and fights.
Not only the new characters are awsome, they all felt integrated, and that integration was VERY well done (didn’t feel that in GT).
Also things like Goku and Vegeta training with Whis. I liked that there was this constant sense of dynamism that didn't exclusively rely on life or death situations. (GT's attempts at these sort of random scenes fell flat). And the comedy aspect really worked for me. Like anime doesn't generally make me laugh but Super did in many scenes.
And of course the fights were great, they were all so exciting, even the dumb ones like Vegeta vs Magetta lol.
I also loved the story and the resolutions of each arc.
And the detail that there were basically no “villains” apart from Zamasu, I think that was very original and made the finale feel different, and wholesome.


GT, I grew up thinking it was amazing. I was aware of the important elements of it and they all seemed so cool:
The art, SS4, Pan, Vegeta’s look (after the shave), the villains (17, Baby, the dragons)..
Until I actually saw the series recently. And it was so so sad how awful it was.
I was basically disappointed with the realization that there were just these good ideas floating but the execution is SO bad that nothing matters. The series is dull as fuck.

The first 3 episodes were allright, but after they ship off to space I only lasted about 1 and a half episode and when I realized it was going to be all about their “adventures” I was like…no. Lets skip to the part where Baby arrives to earth.
I held my hopes that from that point it would pick up.
But no!
The villain was good, but my god, how did the manage to make all of the fights so tedious?
I mean the only “fight” that was somewhat cool was Gohan beating up Vegeta but that’s it.
And the resolution of that arc was lame and weird. They just left earth? What about…i dunno, water and food and electricity, etc?
Also Piccolo randomly decides to die. And they managed to make a permanent death more underwhelming than ANY of the non-permanent ones of Z lol
Then same thing with the next arc. Good idea with the villains. But the execution was baaad. The fights felt so infantile, and Vegita is a total loser here, he does nothing of value, and I don’t even like him, but he IS an important character after all and I want them to use him. But here, he could’ve been nonexistent. Then the dragons arc, once again, the same thing: good idea. But the lack of involvement of anyone except from Goku and Pan made it all feel badly written and underwhelming.
It got mildly fun with Gogeta’s appearance and Goku and Vegeta’s interactions when going 4 and fusing, but the fact that the rest of the Z people were pretty much useless made it feel empty.

And then the ending I expanded on on some other thread, but I thought it was the most depressing shit ever. I understand that it was supossed to show closure and I don’t think it’s badly made, but I felt just the idea itself was exagerated and scary.
Goku taking full responsability for the dragon ball situation seemed a bit too much in my opinion. I mean he never used them for personal gain, that was Bulma. And him leaving for good into a void indefinitely sounds like a horrific concept. Like I don’t know what he was so happy about when he did finally show up on earth as a ghost a fuckin 100 years later. I would’ve just cried if i was him. Lmao

[NickLord]

Super Manga (Post-ToP) > Super Anime > GT > Super Manga (Pre-Moro)

That's how I view things. GT has better ideas but worse execution in almost everything.

[TheGreatness25]

Super Manga (Post-ToP) > Super Anime > GT > Super Manga (Pre-Moro)

That's how I view things. GT has better ideas but worse execution in almost everything.

I kind of want to say that the Super manga is better than the anime too... which is better than GT. Maybe because the manga is my preferred way to experience the series. It's quick, it's easy, it's drawn well, and I can pick it up and put it down (particularly the digital version) whenever I want. So, I might be biased in that way.

The one thing I miss about GT is that it wasn't always so colorful all the time. I enjoyed the darker tones (literally, not story-wise). Also, Vegeta's character model post-haircut/shaving was cool.

[WittyUsername]

The DBS manga was pretty barebones before we got to the stuff with Moro, which is no surprise, since the manga was originally just meant to serve as a side venture, with the anime being the main product. Once the manga was allowed to tell its own story, it managed to gain its own identity. With that said, I don’t particularly care for about the stuff with Moro and Granolah.