What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

[Grimlock]

Black has Goku's hairstyle as SS2 and also the lightnings. Super Vegito had it only in the anime, the manga always was consistent with lightnings and SS2.

If you place an image of Goku Black and Goku side by side you'll notice the hairstyle is not quite the same. He has one more bang. Anyway, in all subsequent panels (until he transforms into Super Saiyan Rosé) he has the usual five bangs of a Super Saiyan.

As for Vegetto...

It's unofficial because it was never stated in the manga or anime, or by Toritama himself (in fact he believes SS was x10, not x50; SSB apparently is that as well for SSG), nor implied in anyway, only on supplementary material, and while I do use them, I know that came out of the head of NOT Toriyama.

That is a completely wrong way of using this word. Everything done under license is official. It doesn't need to come from Toriyama to be official.

[Koitsukai]

Black has Goku's hairstyle as SS2 and also the lightnings. Super Vegito had it only in the anime, the manga always was consistent with lightnings and SS2.

If you place an image of Goku Black and Goku side by side you'll notice the hairstyle is not quite the same. He has one more bang. Anyway, in all subsequent panels (until he transforms into Super Saiyan Rosé) he has the usual five bangs of a Super Saiyan.

As for Vegetto...

You're right, it was regular SS Black, I was under the impression that it was SS2, my bad. Perhaps, because Vegeta was the one using SS2. Vegito's transformation I believe was the only time there were sparks, which is still odd. Unless he's actually always been SS2 and nobody ever realised it, lol.

That is a completely wrong way of using this word. Everything done under license is official. It doesn't need to come from Toriyama to be official.

If this were a court of law, you'd be right, I guess.
Since it is not, and you understood where I was going, the multipliers are still from somebody else's brain and are not from Toriyama. Label them as you like, they remain unmentioned in the main continuity and are just arbitrary numbers, that may or may not make sense, an unknown person came up with.

They belong to supplementary material, and I cannot stress this enough, not written by the author, with nothing to support them from the original source. Not only that, these "official" multipliers were contradicted by the author himself. So being official doesn't make something true.

[miguelnuva1]

The official multiplier contradict nothing. Toriyama said he envisioned SS as 10x in his head but he never says 50x is wrong and it fits the manga more than 10x.

Something doesn't have to be said in the manga if it's in supplemental material as long as it doesn't contradict the manga.

[Grimlock]

these "official" multipliers were contradicted by the author himself.

Mind to provide a few examples that contradict each form's (Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3) multiplier?

Please just don't use "in fact he believes SS was x10, not x50", as this is, in fact, contradicted by the series. Super Saiyan can't have a multiplier of "x10", or Goku should have been using Kaio-Ken x11 or above this whole time instead. Even if Toriyama believed that, this is clearly not the case. It also raises some questions Super Saiyan having the same multiplier as Oozaru.

[Koitsukai]

these "official" multipliers were contradicted by the author himself.

Mind to provide a few examples that contradict each form's (Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3) multiplier?

Please just don't use "in fact he believes SS was x10, not x50", as this is, in fact, contradicted by the series. Super Saiyan can't have a multiplier of "x10", or Goku should have been using Kaio-Ken x11 or above this whole time instead. Even if Toriyama believed that, this is clearly not the case. It also raises some questions Super Saiyan having the same multiplier as Oozaru.

Hey, I don't like it anymore than you do, and don't agree with it either, but it is what it is.

And while whatever the author might say has much more weight than whatever some editor of a supplementary guide may say, the funny thing is, not even Toriyama has something in the original source backing up his claims(besides being the bloody creator of all of it, that is), because like we probably will agree, it doesn't really work with a 10x boost. So, both are just things people have said and do not necessarily apply. Not yet, at least*.

And to play devil's advocate for a minute, it could very well work, if the genki dama weakened Freeza enough for Goku with a 10x to be above his FP. With SS later having a bigger boost after training and accustomization to the form(also not being at the brink of death might help, perhaps), nowhere was it stated (manga, of course) that SS is a set multiplier, and if it was 10x in Namek, it must continue to be 10x by DBS as well.

But then again, the point is 50x, 10x, 25,0333333x... not one of those multipliers have any real basis to stand on because that was never even hinted at. They are arbitrary numbers we may or may not agree with. That's why I cannot provide proof for SS3 NOT being 400x base, because how can I disprove something that hasn't even been proven in the first place?

* SSB was implied to be 10x SSG, so who knows if that old interview influenced Toyo?

[Grimlock]

Hey, Koitsu, I don't know what else to say. This is an "agree to disagree" because while you are right for the most part, nothing about the guidebook's information is actually contradicted. But like you yourself said, there's nothing that supports any of this information in the manga.

So those who accept it, go for it. Those who prefer to ignore it, go for it too.

[TheZFighter]

As a fan of that early series group, I would've liked to have seen Yamcha, Chiaotzu and maybe even Yajirobe in the team. Wouldn't have made much sense from a story perspective though, so I think the only changed I'd actually maybe would be Majin Buu in for Roshi.

[Koitsukai]

Hey, Koitsu, I don't know what else to say. This is an "agree to disagree" because while you are right for the most part, nothing about the guidebook's information is actually contradicted. But like you yourself said, there's nothing that supports any of this information in the manga.

So those who accept it, go for it. Those who prefer to ignore it, go for it too.

Just to be clear, I do accept it. I believe it's 50x, I'm just saying that it might not be true what I believe in and I'm ok with it.

[miguelnuva1]

Toriyama says he envisioned 10x what Goku had been up to that point but that doesn't mean SS HAS A 10x multiplier.

It just means Toriyama who had just about abandoned power levels though Goku was 10x stronger in his mind.

10x stronger in Toriyama's head with no power levels could easily be 50x on a power level scale.

[ChronoTwigger]

Well, my idea is very very different.
Practically, during the recruitement episodes, Goku will move around only to find that *NO ONE* can join.
So in the end they assemble the most ridiculous party ever.
Made of:
GOKU
PILAF
MONAKA
MUTEN (no training)
DRACULAMAN
OOLONG
PUAR
C-6
LUNCH
"THE MASKED WARRIOR" < ChiChi

The whole ToP will ba about all the tricks they will use to defeat other universes (forgot that power levels for the most), with a serious part about Goku vs Jiren.