What is your ideal alternative roster of the ToP saga?

[NickLord]

My ideal alternative TOP roster reflects what i think should have happened in the dragon ball franchise since battle of gods, here are some changes in DBS that would give us this roster.

no1. gohan loses all of his powers permanently and he is now just a regular human that cant even fly, this is the cost of the supreme kaio ritual, you get a huge power up but after a few days you lose the ability to use ki in any way, since the supreme kais are stronger and are a higher autority than gods earth, the dragon balls cannot fix gohans cost, but he is okay with it since he wants to be a scholar and not a fighter.

no2. vegeta dies in the black saga protecting trunks so he can escape to our timeline, trunks and goku train in the time chamber for 2 days, trunks gets god ki and goku teaches him how to use the genkidama, since vegeta died in another timeline the dragon balls cannot bring him back, only the super dragon balls can.

no.3 after what happens with zamasu abusing the dragon balls all the angels and hakaishin have a meeting, they decided to erase all the dragon balls from all the universes, goku ask zeno for one last wish to shenron, zeno refuses but then ask him if he can make it a contest, zeno is interested and the winner of this contest will get the final wish, goku ask if we can make this contest a tourament, zeno agrees.

no.4 resurrection of F never happens, goku asks to uranai baba to bring frieza and cell back for 1 day, goku trains both for a few hours in the time chamber which translate to a few weeks or months inside that place, both get god ki in their new forms.


1 Son goku
2 Android 21, her story happens after the black saga, she could easily replace buu, have another female character and be a wild card with her evil majin side that might take control.
3 Future trunks, i agree with many here, trunk should have stayed in main time line and join the team with his wish being restoring his tiameline and bringing his mother and father back.
4 roshi, i disagree with everyone in this thread, roshi was one of the best parts in DBS, the thing i would have change is that i think he should have died in this arc permanently as his big goodbye.
5 no.18
6 yamcha, how sweet would it be to prove the lame people repeating the same old tired joke about yamcha wrong? give him god ki and new tecniques, hell make him the winner! not even as a joke but as an underdog that prove everyone wrong.
7 cell, i think cell should have also being brought back stronger than ever, or at least replace frieza with cell, he could have some drama tension with android 21.
8 frieza, he was great in that arc, i wanted all the big villains that goku has faced helping him to protect their universe.
9 ten shin han, the character doesnt suck, the way they used him did, he has many unique tecniques and many counters.
10 uub, i think DBS should happen after the manga finale, not in betwen, it makes dbs feel like filler, its pointless and have no tension as you already know how everything will happen thanks to the final chapter

No offense but those are some really bad ideas for the series, worse than the actual Super we got.

[JulieYBM]

My ideal alternative TOP roster reflects what i think should have happened in the dragon ball franchise since battle of gods, here are some changes in DBS that would give us this roster.

no1. gohan loses all of his powers permanently and he is now just a regular human that cant even fly, this is the cost of the supreme kaio ritual, you get a huge power up but after a few days you lose the ability to use ki in any way, since the supreme kais are stronger and are a higher autority than gods earth, the dragon balls cannot fix gohans cost, but he is okay with it since he wants to be a scholar and not a fighter.

no2. vegeta dies in the black saga protecting trunks so he can escape to our timeline, trunks and goku train in the time chamber for 2 days, trunks gets god ki and goku teaches him how to use the genkidama, since vegeta died in another timeline the dragon balls cannot bring him back, only the super dragon balls can.

no.3 after what happens with zamasu abusing the dragon balls all the angels and hakaishin have a meeting, they decided to erase all the dragon balls from all the universes, goku ask zeno for one last wish to shenron, zeno refuses but then ask him if he can make it a contest, zeno is interested and the winner of this contest will get the final wish, goku ask if we can make this contest a tourament, zeno agrees.

no.4 resurrection of F never happens, goku asks to uranai baba to bring frieza and cell back for 1 day, goku trains both for a few hours in the time chamber which translate to a few weeks or months inside that place, both get god ki in their new forms.


1 Son goku
2 Android 21, her story happens after the black saga, she could easily replace buu, have another female character and be a wild card with her evil majin side that might take control.
3 Future trunks, i agree with many here, trunk should have stayed in main time line and join the team with his wish being restoring his tiameline and bringing his mother and father back.
4 roshi, i disagree with everyone in this thread, roshi was one of the best parts in DBS, the thing i would have change is that i think he should have died in this arc permanently as his big goodbye.
5 no.18
6 yamcha, how sweet would it be to prove the lame people repeating the same old tired joke about yamcha wrong? give him god ki and new tecniques, hell make him the winner! not even as a joke but as an underdog that prove everyone wrong.
7 cell, i think cell should have also being brought back stronger than ever, or at least replace frieza with cell, he could have some drama tension with android 21.
8 frieza, he was great in that arc, i wanted all the big villains that goku has faced helping him to protect their universe.
9 ten shin han, the character doesnt suck, the way they used him did, he has many unique tecniques and many counters.
10 uub, i think DBS should happen after the manga finale, not in betwen, it makes dbs feel like filler, its pointless and have no tension as you already know how everything will happen thanks to the final chapter

No offense but those are some really bad ideas for the series, worse than the actual Super we got.

You could just not post.

[Grimlock]

No offense but those are some really bad ideas for the series, worse than the actual Super we got.

This is the second time you rudely tell others that their opinions are "bad" (and for the record, in the other thread, it was a necropost. You brought a dead thread back only to say that they have "awful ideas") without even trying to propose your "better" ideas or to at least point out what is "wrong" (to you) in their view (and to be honest, the fact that Movie 15 didn't happen and that they include characters like Android 21 and Uub, is probably a hint that their ideas are better than anything you might come up with).

You may want to submit more substantial posts so we can have a nice conversation.

[miguelnuva1]

I would never tell any one their ideas personally are bad but removing Gohan and Vegeta like that is bad as there are popular characters.

Everyone should be free to explain their stroy and their changes however they want however.

[NickLord]

No offense but those are some really bad ideas for the series, worse than the actual Super we got.

This is the second time you rudely tell others that their opinions are "bad" (and for the record, in the other thread, it was a necropost. You brought a dead thread back only to say that they have "awful ideas") without even trying to propose your "better" ideas or to at least point out what is "wrong" (to you) in their view (and to be honest, the fact that Movie 15 didn't happen and that they include characters like Android 21 and Uub, is probably a hint that their ideas are better than anything you might come up with).

You may want to submit more substantial posts so we can have a nice conversation.

They're bad ideas because when you sit down and think about them for more than a minute they make no sense at all. Introducing a random negative side effect for Ultimate Gohan (without Old Kai even warning him about it) would be a bigger asspull than the form itself, and if it had such a severe permanent side effect such as that then they would have never considered giving it to Gohan in the Buu Saga in the first place.

Also, it makes no sense to assume that Bulma and the Trunks' wouldn't go out of their way to bring Vegeta back from death with or without the Super Dragonballs.

And the rest is stuff that he's hypocritically criticized Super for doing but with characters he likes rather than ones he doesn't like.

[slifer875]

Okaaaay so my suggestion got quite a response from nicklord.

Its just a few silly ideas i came up with at the top of my head, no reason to get angry about it, i took away gohan and vegeta as i find them the most bland characters in the TOP arc, so i just replace them with characters that would bring more drama or gave us more interesting fights and chemistry than those two.

To answer his questions
1 Like you said gohan ultimate power up always felt rushed, no downgrades or side effects to the point it makes you question why other characters didnt do the ritual in future arcs, giving it it that type of side effect would finally give a closure to gohan, he gets to be a hero and return to a normal life being a scholar after buu is defeated, gohan doesnt care about power so he would be okay with the cost, as for your other point seeing how the cast was so desperate for any way to stop buu, i dont see whats the big deal when goku was willing to give away his individuality to become vegetto, picoloo was willing to seal himself with buu for eternity and vegeta straight up took his own life, gohan being the one character who never cared or wanted to be a fighter giving up his powers is not that much of a big cost...

2 To be honest i found vegeta to be the most boring character in the TOP arc, not only that but many of his so called "dramatic momments" like his new transformation and "kamikaze attack" only ruined any enjoyment we could get from him, vegeta being the drive and wish for a future trunks that fights in the TOP would make for some good drama, not to mention his relationship to the androids and frieza could add tension.

[NickLord]

Okaaaay so my suggestion got quite a response from nicklord.

Its just a few silly ideas i came up with at the top of my head, no reason to get angry about it, i took away gohan and vegeta as i find them the most bland characters in the TOP arc, so i just replace them with characters that would bring more drama or gave us more interesting fights and chemistry than those two.

To answer his questions
1 Like you said gohan ultimate power up always felt rushed, no downgrades or side effects to the point it makes you question why other characters didnt do the ritual in future arcs, giving it it that type of side effect would finally give a closure to gohan, he gets to be a hero and return to a normal life being a scholar after buu is defeated, gohan doesnt care about power so he would be okay with the cost, as for your other point seeing how the cast was so desperate for any way to stop buu, i dont see whats the big deal when goku was willing to give away his individuality to become vegetto, picoloo was willing to seal himself with buu for eternity and vegeta straight up took his own life, gohan being the one character who never cared or wanted to be a fighter giving up his powers is not that much of a big cost...

2 To be honest i found vegeta to be the most boring character in the TOP arc, not only that but many of his so called "dramatic momments" like his new transformation and "kamikaze attack" only ruined any enjoyment we could get from him, vegeta being the drive and wish for a future trunks that fights in the TOP would make for some good drama, not to mention his relationship to the androids and frieza could add tension.

1. That's still a really bad idea because it makes the whole thing (and Gohan's character in general) a pointless waste of time in the end. There's no point in investing or leveling up a character at all if they'll amount to nothing in the end narratively. And the whole "Gohan never wanted to be a fighter" argument is weak because people in fiction and real life choose to do things they don't want to do but feel they have to all of the time, and Gohan even as a scared kid isn't the type of character to sit on his ass and do nothing when the people he cares about is in danger. There's no way Gohan would just to sit out of the ToP if the risk is he and his family getting erased from existence.

2. Removing Vegeta from the ToP would be even stupider because he was the 2nd most accomplished character in that entire tournament (only Goku scored more wins than him) and nobody else in U7 besides Goku is a more all around capable fighter than he is. He was also one of the few characters in the ToP arc with any real sense of character motivation and him unlocking SSBE was one of the few powerups scene in the ToP saga that actually had any personality to it and wasn't just another plot convenient asspull. Also, the idea that Goku, Trunks, Bulma and the others wouldn't try to revive Vegeta by any means so that he could compete in the ToP is ridiculous (even Whis choose to rewind time just so that Vegeta could survive RoF).

[Civic]

My ideal roster:

1) Goku
2) Vegeta
3) Gohan
4) Piccolo
5) Android 18
6) Android 17
7) Future Trunks - should absolutely have stayed in the main timeline. Power greater than SSJ2, has trained with the existing Z fighters so would team up well.
Gotenks - SSJ3 level power being left out? Seems odd. Being fused before the tournament began, it could be argued he was only one person so he would be permitted. Plus the fusion would only last a certain time - if U7 were down a fighter, the unfusion would give them another member to the team. I'm sure Zeno would have approved! It could have also been a great chance to develop their characters - maybe trying to mature and make up for their mistakes with Super Buu.
9) Majin Buu - a powerful fighter if only for his regenerative abilities and stretchy limbs. Plus he got shafted in Super, he only got one fight in the whole show. Plus his absorption could have made some interesting scenarios as well.
10) Cell - a better choice than Frieza for a few reasons. Having both Frieza's and the Saiyans' DNA, if he trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber it stands to reason he could have unlocked something like Golden Frieza, or trained/performed the SSG ritual to get god ki. Plus having all the Z fighters abilities means he can deal with a lot of different situations. And Cell's a big fan of testing his limits, that would give him incentive to participate in the tournament with everything he had, outside of just wanting self preservation.

[LoganForkHands73]

Okaaaay so my suggestion got quite a response from nicklord.

Its just a few silly ideas i came up with at the top of my head, no reason to get angry about it, i took away gohan and vegeta as i find them the most bland characters in the TOP arc, so i just replace them with characters that would bring more drama or gave us more interesting fights and chemistry than those two.

To answer his questions
1 Like you said gohan ultimate power up always felt rushed, no downgrades or side effects to the point it makes you question why other characters didnt do the ritual in future arcs, giving it it that type of side effect would finally give a closure to gohan, he gets to be a hero and return to a normal life being a scholar after buu is defeated, gohan doesnt care about power so he would be okay with the cost, as for your other point seeing how the cast was so desperate for any way to stop buu, i dont see whats the big deal when goku was willing to give away his individuality to become vegetto, picoloo was willing to seal himself with buu for eternity and vegeta straight up took his own life, gohan being the one character who never cared or wanted to be a fighter giving up his powers is not that much of a big cost...

For what it's worth, I think your idea of Gohan losing his powers permanently is a cool one! The Potential Unlock ritual could've done with some kind of downside (aside from how long it took, which was pretty much arbitrary) because as it stands, it's one of the cheapest power-ups ever. Plus, I can imagine Gohan would be thrilled to finally have no responsibility to save the world so that he can finally focus on what he really enjoys. In many ways, I think it would be better than him constantly coming in and out of retirement only to disappoint when he does fight in the actual show.

[Peach]

My ideal roster:

1) Goku
2) Vegeta
3) Gohan
4) Piccolo
5) Android 18
6) Android 17
7) Future Trunks - should absolutely have stayed in the main timeline. Power greater than SSJ2, has trained with the existing Z fighters so would team up well.
Gotenks - SSJ3 level power being left out? Seems odd. Being fused before the tournament began, it could be argued he was only one person so he would be permitted. Plus the fusion would only last a certain time - if U7 were down a fighter, the unfusion would give them another member to the team. I'm sure Zeno would have approved! It could have also been a great chance to develop their characters - maybe trying to mature and make up for their mistakes with Super Buu.
9) Majin Buu - a powerful fighter if only for his regenerative abilities and stretchy limbs. Plus he got shafted in Super, he only got one fight in the whole show. Plus his absorption could have made some interesting scenarios as well.
10) Cell - a better choice than Frieza for a few reasons. Having both Frieza's and the Saiyans' DNA, if he trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber it stands to reason he could have unlocked something like Golden Frieza, or trained/performed the SSG ritual to get god ki. Plus having all the Z fighters abilities means he can deal with a lot of different situations. And Cell's a big fan of testing his limits, that would give him incentive to participate in the tournament with everything he had, outside of just wanting self preservation.

Gottenks would be weird to me since his Super Saiyan 3 makes him defuse much faster than 30 minutes. I suppose they could always retcon that though. I do love him though. His Super Ghost Kamakazi would be sweet in a Battle Royale.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m personally not fond of having so much characters being introduced so quickly into the story. Most of other universes’ competitors were pretty generic and didn’t offer anything new. Some of them were pretty good in another hand.

So, my idea would be probably maintaining the same number of participants that attended at Champa Arc and fleshing out the new characters more.

For U7, my ideal roster would be:
1- Son Goku (impossible to leave him out);
2- Son Gohan (a chance of redeeming his past mistakes and proving he has become a true warrior);
3- Majin Boo (a chance of seeing him in good action, interacting with Goku and Gohan, who were his past enemies, and he has an useful healing ability);
4- 17 (he deserved some spotlight, I personally think bringing him back was a very clever idea, not to mention his ability is very useful in this format of tournament);
5- Freeza (a very good idea and it inserted some tension on wether he would follow the team interests or not).

Why leaving Vegeta out? It’s not that I dislike his participation in the tournament, but I think his blue evolution form would feel much more earned if it was saved as a result of his Yardrat training. And that would justify picking Freeza up as a substitute as they have more or less the same level of strength. That would make the decision of choosing Freeza much more dramatic. Perhaps a God of Destruction of another universe like Quitela would discover Vegeta had a daughter, he would kidnap her and force Vegeta to be occupied with this matter, which would leave him unable to participate.

[DestructoDisc]

There are two changes to the ToP roster I would've liked to have seen, the simplest of which would be to swap Muten Roshi for Majin Boo. Dragon Ball Super did Boo real dirty with the whole "Boo falls asleep right before a big battle" gag, and let's be real here, Roshi really didn't have any business being in that fight.

The bigger change would've been to replace someone (probably Tenshinhan) with Future Trunks. I've had this idea for a Goku Black/ToP rewrite sitting in my head for who knows how long, where instead of just giving up and fucking off to another timeline, Trunks actually stays in the main timeline to figure out a way to fix his world after Future Omni-King erased it. The gang gets the idea to use the Super Dragon Balls to restore Trunks's world, which ends with him participating in the Tournament of Power in the hopes of being able to make a wish. Maybe he even ends up being the last man standing, and has to chose between fixing his reality or restoring all of the Universes that were erased during the Tournament.

Why don't you want Pikkon? Android 18 could have been swapped for him!!

Replace the only female from Universe 7 that can fight (and is strong, Videl and Chi-Chi are weak as fuck even compared to the likes of Chiaotzu) with another stoic Piccolo/Vegeta type character? No thanks

[Civic]

My ideal roster:

1) Goku
2) Vegeta
3) Gohan
4) Piccolo
5) Android 18
6) Android 17
7) Future Trunks - should absolutely have stayed in the main timeline. Power greater than SSJ2, has trained with the existing Z fighters so would team up well.
Gotenks - SSJ3 level power being left out? Seems odd. Being fused before the tournament began, it could be argued he was only one person so he would be permitted. Plus the fusion would only last a certain time - if U7 were down a fighter, the unfusion would give them another member to the team. I'm sure Zeno would have approved! It could have also been a great chance to develop their characters - maybe trying to mature and make up for their mistakes with Super Buu.
9) Majin Buu - a powerful fighter if only for his regenerative abilities and stretchy limbs. Plus he got shafted in Super, he only got one fight in the whole show. Plus his absorption could have made some interesting scenarios as well.
10) Cell - a better choice than Frieza for a few reasons. Having both Frieza's and the Saiyans' DNA, if he trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber it stands to reason he could have unlocked something like Golden Frieza, or trained/performed the SSG ritual to get god ki. Plus having all the Z fighters abilities means he can deal with a lot of different situations. And Cell's a big fan of testing his limits, that would give him incentive to participate in the tournament with everything he had, outside of just wanting self preservation.

Gottenks would be weird to me since his Super Saiyan 3 makes him defuse much faster than 30 minutes. I suppose they could always retcon that though. I do love him though. His Super Ghost Kamakazi would be sweet in a Battle Royale.

Yes that's true. Even at SSJ he'd still be a powerful fighter. But yeah, I think it would've been a great opportunity for his character.

[Grimlock]

Just give Gotenks the same Super Saiyan 2 power-up manga Trunks has. He has Super Saiyan 3 but he really doesn't need it. Even if he might not be as strong as he'd be as Super Saiyan 3, Gotenks would certainly be as efficient for as long as the fusion lasts. Make the most of Super Saiyan 2, which is naturally the best form to use overall while being very powerful with no drawbacks.

[miguelnuva1]

Just give Gotenks the same Super Saiyan 2 power-up manga Trunks has. He has Super Saiyan 3 but he really doesn't need it. Even if he might not be as strong as he'd be as Super Saiyan 3, Gotenks would certainly be as efficient for as long as the fusion lasts. Make the most of Super Saiyan 2, which is naturally the best form to use overall while being very powerful with no drawbacks.

The way Dragomball works the strongest SS form is the best. At the time. Ss2 seems the best balance but if your fighting a ss3 tier foe you need ss3 and the same with the other forms.

[Grimlock]

Not necessarily. Not when you have a power-up that might provide the same, close or an even greater boost than Super Saiyan 3. If you have something like that, Super Saiyan 3 is not required at all unless you want to drain your own stamina and such for whatever reason.

We don't know the multiplier of this power-up, but if it puts Trunks on around the same level of a Super Saiyan 3 Goku who went through so much (seven years of training, Majin Buu saga, four years of training, Movie 14, training with Whis, Movie 15 and Universe 6 saga), then it's not out of the realm of possibility that its multiplier might be huge.

Sure, Trunks did train for maybe more than eight years (from AGE 788 until AGE 796) and experienced the Majin Buu saga events too, but it obviously doesn't compare with everything Goku went through. The only reasonable explanation I can think of for Trunks to able to reach that level is if this power-up provides an absurd amount of power. So Gotenks wouldn't need Super Saiyan 3 at all in this scenario.

[Koitsukai]

Not necessarily. Not when you have a power-up that might provide the same, close or an even greater boost than Super Saiyan 3. If you have something like that, Super Saiyan 3 is not required at all unless you want to drain your own stamina and such for whatever reason.

We don't know the multiplier of this power-up, but if it puts Trunks on around the same level of a Super Saiyan 3 Goku who went through so much (seven years of training, Majin Buu saga, four years of training, Movie 14, training with Whis, Movie 15 and Universe 6 saga), then it's not out of the realm of possibility that its multiplier might be huge.

Sure, Trunks did train for maybe more than eight years (from AGE 788 until AGE 796) and experienced the Majin Buu saga events too, but it obviously doesn't compare with everything Goku went through. The only reasonable explanation I can think of for Trunks to able to reach that level is if this power-up provides an absurd amount of power. So Gotenks wouldn't need Super Saiyan 3 at all in this scenario.

Agreed, DBS Goku needed SSG to put him down for good (in the manga). Vegeta also had a SS2 form that allowed him to beat up SS2 Black who was above SS3 Goku and SS2 Trunks, not to mention hitting Beerus.
Anime SS2 Kale was not that far off SSG Goku either, although she is a freak.

SS2 seems to be capable of being amplified beyond it's typical capabilities, surpassing its initial -unofficial- multiplier.

Gotenks would still be able to go SS3 for an even greater boost and the expected stamina problems, if SS2 isn't enough. Perhaps SS3 Trunks would've beaten SS2 Black.

[BWri]

Not necessarily. Not when you have a power-up that might provide the same, close or an even greater boost than Super Saiyan 3. If you have something like that, Super Saiyan 3 is not required at all unless you want to drain your own stamina and such for whatever reason.

We don't know the multiplier of this power-up, but if it puts Trunks on around the same level of a Super Saiyan 3 Goku who went through so much (seven years of training, Majin Buu saga, four years of training, Movie 14, training with Whis, Movie 15 and Universe 6 saga), then it's not out of the realm of possibility that its multiplier might be huge.

Sure, Trunks did train for maybe more than eight years (from AGE 788 until AGE 796) and experienced the Majin Buu saga events too, but it obviously doesn't compare with everything Goku went through. The only reasonable explanation I can think of for Trunks to able to reach that level is if this power-up provides an absurd amount of power. So Gotenks wouldn't need Super Saiyan 3 at all in this scenario.

Agreed, DBS Goku needed SSG to put him down for good (in the manga). Vegeta also had a SS2 form that allowed him to beat up SS2 Black who was above SS3 Goku and SS2 Trunks, not to mention hitting Beerus.
Anime SS2 Kale was not that far off SSG Goku either, although she is a freak.

SS2 seems to be capable of being amplified beyond it's typical capabilities, surpassing its initial -unofficial- multiplier.

Gotenks would still be able to go SS3 for an even greater boost and the expected stamina problems, if SS2 isn't enough. Perhaps SS3 Trunks would've beaten SS2 Black.

Yes, I believe each of those characters have mutated SSJ2 forms which they push beyond the normal limits of the form. I consider SSJ Rage another such mutation.

[Grimlock]

Vegeta also had a SS2 form that allowed him to beat up SS2 Black who was above SS3 Goku and SS2 Trunks, not to mention hitting Beerus.

Your point stands, I'm just not aware of "Super Saiyan 2 Goku Black". Is that a thing? I remember the lightnings, but I think it was for aesthetics purpose only. Like Vegetto had lightnings when he transformed into Super Saiyan.

SS2 seems to be capable of being amplified beyond it's typical capabilities, surpassing its initial -unofficial- multiplier.

Why would you say it's "unofficial"?

[Koitsukai]

Vegeta also had a SS2 form that allowed him to beat up SS2 Black who was above SS3 Goku and SS2 Trunks, not to mention hitting Beerus.

Your point stands, I'm just not aware of "Super Saiyan 2 Goku Black". Is that a thing? I remember the lightnings, but I think it was for aesthetics purpose only. Like Vegetto had lightnings when he transformed into Super Saiyan.

SS2 seems to be capable of being amplified beyond it's typical capabilities, surpassing its initial -unofficial- multiplier.

Why would you say it's "unofficial"?

Black has Goku's hairstyle as SS2 and also the lightnings. Super Vegito had it only in the anime, the manga always was consistent with lightnings and SS2.

It's unofficial because it was never stated in the manga or anime, or by Toritama himself (in fact he believes SS was x10, not x50; SSB apparently is that as well for SSG), nor implied in anyway, only on supplementary material, and while I do use them, I know that came out of the head of NOT Toriyama.