About Toyotaro and the power scaling with Uchida

[KentMan]

There seems to be a misunderstanding that could use more analysis in regards to Goku Beerus Broly

[Hugo Boss]

Which misunderstanding? What are you trying to suggest?

[KentMan]

Which misunderstanding? What are you trying to suggest?

I’m saying that maybe we should study and analyze what’s happening? What does it mean? And why is the new volume cutting out a certain part in a transcripted interview from last year?

[Hugo Boss]

Which misunderstanding? What are you trying to suggest?

I’m saying that maybe we should study and analyze what’s happening? What does it mean? And why is the new volume cutting out a certain part in a transcripted interview from last year?

What are you talking about? What interview? Give a little more substance to what you are trying to discuss.

[Koitsukai]

Are you talking about one of the last interviews where Toyo mentions Beerus and Whis as people that can mentor Goku or something like that, and Uchida threw Broly's name into the mix, and people thought Toyo was the one that mentioned Broly based on the subs, and the whole Brolymania resurfaced?

[VegettoEX]

Woof. OK. I'm confused at well. But let's do this.

There was a video interview with Uchida from October 2020, in which they say:

V-Long: Hm. You said you have meetings with the three of you: Toriyama-sensei, and Toyotaro-sensei, and yourself. What would you say the power balance in those meetings is like? Like, in relation to one another?

Uchida: One-hundred million, ten million, -100.

But... OK... that was a video interview, and it's still there, and we have it translated on the site, and...?

OK, but you seem to be talking about something condensed in a manga volume. Well, volume 17 is the most recent volume in Japan, and that does indeed have a condensed version of a completely separate video interview from August 2021 as its last two pages.

But of course it's condensed, because there is only so much space in two pages, and it was an edited 16 minute video.

And what's "missing"? Something about battle powers? Scaling? Uchida? But your post says Beerus and Broli? What are you even talking about here?

At this point I had to just rewatch the entire 16 minute video myself.

And sure enough, the two pages covering this interview at the back of volume 17 only cover the first half of the 16 minute video. So it's not really that stuff is "left out"... it just wasn't even covered to begin with. They go on to talk about the four chapters that were collected in volume 16, which is the volume that was coming out around the time of this video. Favorite characters, panels, gags, etc. That kind of stuff.

Uchida and Toyotaro, again in this second half of the video, talk about Granolla's wish and the struggles to show on the page what "strongest in the universe" actually meant. And then after that it's probably what you're talking about:

They're discussing how Goku's already so strong, but he's stronger in this arc than he even was after fighting Moro, but there's still more for him to achieve. For Goku there's also Whis and and Beerus and Broli, and also the Great Priest. Uchida and Toyo are both tossing out names here.

... and that's it. They immediately move on.

So a few key points here:

(1) This post and thread is just a real perfect example of really needing to take the time to actually describe what the heck it is you're talking about, and get some of those key facts straight before you even start.

(2) No-one is "cutting out" or "hiding" anything or something like that by this part of the interview not being replicated in Volume 17. There wasn't space, and they cut off the transcription at a natural point before the conversation turned to other material. You're specifically referring to stuff they talked about in the second half of the conversation, a totally different set of topics.

(3) I don't see what there is to even say about this. There's always more to do and gain, this is how Goku functions, and there are still a bunch of strong guys out there. They named some of those strong guys. I know some of y'all are absolutely bonkers dead set on this whole scaling thing, but this was such a casual conversation just talking about man wow ain't the universe so big and there's so much more Goku can do. Zero impact on anything, story-telling or otherwise.

[Hugo Boss]

They're discussing how Goku's already so strong, but he's stronger in this arc than he even was after fighting Moro, but there's still more for him to achieve. For Goku there's also Whis and and Beerus and Broli, and also the Great Priest. Uchida and Toyo are both tossing out names here.

Considering our recent interactions in other threads, I’m almost sure this might be the tidbit he is most interested in.

I know it’s a casual and totally not so much of a meaningful discussion to have, but for the sake of Zeno’s powerscalling enthusiasts, correct me if I’m wrong but Uchida was the one to bring up Broly in this talk. Toyotaro only named Whis, Beerus and Great Priest.

We just had a conversation a little while ago about how it would be impossible for Broly to be stronger than Goku as he is now. Toyotaro’s silence here may be a red herring.

[VegettoEX]

Toyotaro’s silence here may be a red herring.

Even if Toyotaro literally stopped Uchida in his tracks and said, "No, absolutely not, there's no way Broli is stronger than Goku right now"...

... they would have cut it out, because that's an absurd kind of over-correction to keep in, completely interrupting the flow of conversation in an otherwise already-verbose and meandering edited video for the web.

So regardless of whether it's "true" or not, none of that actually matters, because that's not really the point of what they were ultimately talking about and around, and clearly not a Prepared Statement and Stance of Official Scaling Canonicity™.

Gotta pick your fights, y'all. Sometimes people just say random shit and holding them to every last syllable is not worth the time I spent reviewing everything here!

[KentMan]

Woof. OK. I'm confused at well. But let's do this...

Herms was the one who noticed that the volume doesn’t discuss the room to improve part. And he was also the one that said for what it’s worth it was Uchida that mentioned Beerus and Broly first. With Toyotaro repeating what Uchida said and staying silent on Broly. Just recently the Goku bio for Super Super hero has Jiren and Broly mentioned but no Beerus. If we are under the impression that Goku never surpassed Beerus than he didn’t surpass Jiren or Broly. I had a feeling you was gonna show up with the interviews you have on this site oh thank you btw. I made this topic because I knew something weird with that interview was happening. For starters in chapter 68 Whis only mentions Merus, himself and the GP with greater command over Ultra Instinct. Notice who’s not mentioned Beerus. is it not possible that maybe Goku room to improve could refer to something else with Beerus?Because in the next part of the interview he calls Granolah 1st strongest with Goku and Vegeta as 2nd and 3rd strongest note: he never says who was second or third but he never has Broly in that ranking. I knew what I was talking about because of the fact that Uchida has a history of getting things wrong like when Ultra Instinct first appears and never corrects someone about it.

My point in this matter is that it’s possible that it’s ambiguous with Beerus. Beerus from what I’ve seen is clearly upset at Gokus claim that he won’t lose to anyone in chapter 71. And he tells Vegeta to go out there and prove hakaishin techniques are stronger than Angel techniques. This is where the ambiguity came from. And I should point out that Granolah first wish attempt is different than the other. If the dragon can’t make him any stronger than deities than the Kai’s would be stronger than Granolah. I’m not making assumptions it’s just that I sense that something else is happening. Toyotaro repeating what Beerus and not Broly suggest that Uchida thinks Broly is either stronger or equal to Beerus. And if this was a mistake than only this would have been cut off and corrected.

Are you talking about one of the last interviews where Toyo mentions Beerus and Whis as people that can mentor Goku or something like that, and Uchida threw Broly's name into the mix, and people thought Toyo was the one that mentioned Broly based on the subs, and the whole Brolymania resurfaced?

Actually it was also Uchida who threw Beerus name in the mix except that was repeated. And it’s ambiguous as what he means.

Oh I forgot to mention that Toyotaro claims that he introduced a level beyond perfect in Vol 16 when it was really in vol 15 chapter 68 though I can understand the inaccuracies.

[VegettoEX]

OK, so I'm not sure that I made this clear enough:

The interview "transcription" in Volume 17 only covers the first half of the video interview from last August.

This makes sense, because the first half of the interview includes topics like character designs and general production information, which is evergreen content that they could repeat and include at any point along the line down the road. And this is exactly what happened: they used it months later in Volume 17 of the collected edition.

It wouldn't have made any sense to include anything from the second half of the video interview, because what they do there is literally talk about chapters 69-72, the chapters that were collected in Volume **16**, the one that was coming out at the time of the video interview.

Why would Volume 17 bother transcribing a meandering conversation about chapters that were already collected the previous volume? Correct -- they wouldn't! And they didn't!

It just so happens that the big quote you're concerned with happened to be in the second half of the video. But as I think I've pretty clearly laid out, it's not that they were "hiding" or "removing" or "censoring" or anything else someone might come up with -- it was part of a totally different conversation, one they obviously weren't going to include here in the selected portions included in Volume 17.

And again, I'm personally extremely unconcerned with the actual "scaling" conversation itself. You can have that all you want. I just really want to lay out the facts behind what's said where and why.

[KentMan]

There were obvious contradictions in that interview regarding Broly. If Granolah supposed to be the strongest with Goku and Vegeta 2nd and 3rd. Why would Uchida throw Brolys name and not be corrected? It’s doesn’t add up plus if Goku is weaker than Beerus than he is by logic weaker than Broly who was compared to Beerus and Jiren who is beyond his destroyer. In this same interview many people assumed Beerus is stronger than Jiren or Broly. This was never corrected in the forum’s because Jiren himself was never mentioned in that interview. And that same interview never called Beerus the strongest destroyer. Toyotaro repeating Beerus from Uchida and staying silent on Broly. Could mean many things either he repeated Beerus by mistake than stayed silent on Broly. Or it could just be that Gokus room to improve with Beerus is referring to something else that’s not UI.

Oh yes about that not including the transcript interview of the second half. I have a feeling that this will be addressed soon since the new movie is coming out in about 2 months. And we might get clear answers as what is happening.

[Hugo Boss]

There were obvious contradictions in that interview regarding Broly. If Granolah supposed to be the strongest with Goku and Vegeta 2nd and 3rd. Why would Uchida throw Brolys name and not be corrected?

VegettoEX already answered that. They were having a pretty light-hearted talk. It would be very unfitting to make such a correction.

Toyotaro repeating Beerus from Uchida and staying silent on Broly. Could mean many things either he repeated Beerus by mistake than stayed silent on Broly. Or it could just be that Gokus room to improve with Beerus is referring to something else that’s not UI.

Why the mistake comes from mentioning Beerus and staying silent on Broly? You are selectively leaving options out that you apparently don’t want to accept as plausible, which makes all this debate you reignited very confusing to understand.

This talk is about people who are still stronger than Goku, even after he managed to add perfect ultra instinct to his skillset. No one mentioned Jiren probably because he is irrelevant right now. And Toyotaro also completely ignored Broly in Granolah’s arc, which mainly revolves around a contest of who is the best warrior in the universe.

[KentMan]

There were obvious contradictions in that interview regarding Broly. If Granolah supposed to be the strongest with Goku and Vegeta 2nd and 3rd. Why would Uchida throw Brolys name and not be corrected?

VegettoEX already answered that. They were having a pretty light-hearted talk. It would be very unfitting to make such a correction.

Toyotaro repeating Beerus from Uchida and staying silent on Broly. Could mean many things either he repeated Beerus by mistake than stayed silent on Broly. Or it could just be that Gokus room to improve with Beerus is referring to something else that’s not UI.

Why the mistake comes from mentioning Beerus and staying silent on Broly? You are selectively leaving options out that you apparently don’t want to accept as plausible, which makes all this debate you reignited very confusing to understand.

This talk is about people who are still stronger than Goku, even after he managed to add perfect ultra instinct to his skillset. No one mentioned Jiren probably because he is irrelevant right now. And Toyotaro also completely ignored Broly in Granolah’s arc, which mainly revolves around a contest of who is the best warrior in the universe.

Again speculating doesn’t help anyone.We already have the super hero bio for Goku that puts Jiren and Broly together. Gokus line about Broly probably being stronger than Beerus came from Toriyama in that movie. The room to improve part is also ambiguous when it comes to Broly and Beerus. We can’t put UI with those two because Whis never mentioned Beerus in chapter 68. So I’m more likely in the stance that there was an error and nobody cares to correct it until it’s too late.

That’s speculation at best from what I’ve seen him say. Since no one can say for certain that Broly being mentioned was a mistake. You yourself said it’s a red herring. I can take VegettoEX word of why they don’t include the second part. Except the vol 16 part doesn’t match up with the second half of the interview. Introduction to the level beyond perfect was introduced in vol 15 for starters. And again we don’t know why the second half of the interview isn’t being shown in writing. Because if you or someone else thinks that Uchida made a mistake it would have been addressed much sooner after the interview.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s easier to understand the manga story when you forget about movie content a little. From what I’m seeing you are simply having a hard time trying to reconcile everything. Even Herms tried to do that, and he considered the possibility that Goku might be wrong about the gods of destruction strength. And Herms was right there, because Goku couldn’t have known about UE (revealed after Herms’ thread, for context). It has no limits for Beerus, his own words. So, whatever level A that Goku observed, Beerus can upgrade to level B without him noticing, that’s how UE works, making it very difficult to assess. I don’t know if you like OnePunchMan, but the last manga chapter conveys an ability from a S-class hero that is very similar to UE. I think it’s worth taking a look.

About Broly, my speculation is that something is being planned for him to be executed after Granolah’s arc. He might be a major player again. Perhaps Uchida goofed off and Toyotaro couldn’t say anything about it. In another hand, the way Broly was depicted in the manga, he is only stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, nothing about Beerus there.

This goes back to my first point, these people aren’t perfect, they won’t always satisfy your need of 100% consistent information between movie, anime, manga or even supplementary material. There are glaring differences, I suggest you think about that for a bit before making further responses.

[KentMan]

It’s easier to understand the manga story when you forget about movie content a little. From what I’m seeing you are simply having a hard time trying to reconcile everything. Even Herms tried to do that, and he considered the possibility that Goku might be wrong about the gods of destruction strength. And Herms was right there, because Goku couldn’t have known about UE (revealed after Herms’ thread, for context). It has no limits for Beerus, his own words. So, whatever level A that Goku observed, Beerus can upgrade to level B without him noticing, that’s how UE works, making it very difficult to assess. I don’t know if you like OnePunchMan, but the last manga chapter conveys an ability from a S-class hero that is very similar to UE. I think it’s worth taking a look.

About Broly, my speculation is that something is being planned for him to be executed after Granolah’s arc. He might be a major player again. Perhaps Uchida goofed off and Toyotaro couldn’t say anything about it. In another hand, the way Broly was depicted in the manga, he is only stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, nothing about Beerus there.

This goes back to my first point, these people aren’t perfect, they won’t always satisfy your need of 100% consistent information between movie, anime, manga or even supplementary material. There are glaring differences, I suggest you think about that for a bit before making further responses.

What does Goku not knowing about UE has anything to do of what he saw in the zen exhibition match? You realize that Guides like Whis have white hair right? And Toyotaro said he’s not certain if there’s a connection between that and Gokus silver hairs form. Because he has yet to ask Toriyama. This is just me guessing but they can use UE without transforming kinda like Ultimate Gohan but a little different. And for clarification all of them have it so they should be able to get stronger too not just Beerus. Which they clearly didn’t and if Beerus says he has no limits it’s a wonder why he’s scared of Zeno.

But your guessing that Uchida goofed up and Toyotaro did nothing to correct him. It isn’t a reasonable speculation just because he threw Broly’s name with Beerus. One of whom was repeated by Toyotaro the other silent yet not corrected. It makes it ambiguous as to what they mean about room to improve with Broly and Beerus. As for SSB no matter if Goku uses the kaioken like blue in the manga, or Vegeta uses the evolution form they would never beat Broly or Jiren with just that. And Beerus not being mentioned isn’t important because the movies already covers it.

I think you should reread your last paragraph that describes you more than me. I won’t argue that people make mistakes but so do fans. It is clear that you just want Beerus at the top and like many others don’t like that Uchida threw Broly’s name in.

[Hugo Boss]

What does Goku not knowing about UE has anything to do of what he saw in the zen exhibition match? You realize that Guides like Whis have white hair right? And Toyotaro said he’s not certain if there’s a connection between that and Gokus silver hairs form. Because he has yet to ask Toriyama. This is just me guessing but they can use UE without transforming kinda like Ultimate Gohan but a little different. And for clarification all of them have it so they should be able to get stronger too not just Beerus. Which they clearly didn’t and if Beerus says he has no limits it’s a wonder why he’s scared of Zeno.

It should be noted there was a point in the exhibition match that Goku lost track of the fight and none explained to him what was happening, so he didn't know the gods of destruction had the ability to get stronger. About UE being proclaimed to be off-limits, I'm just repeating Beerus' own words, corroborated by Vegeta, but of course Vegeta vs. Granolah showed there is a limit to UE, which may vary depending on the user (Vegeta implies his UE is inferior to Beerus', by the way). So, despite having that ability, Beerus can still be scared of Great Priest and Omni-King (this case in particular because strength has no effect on him, so it's not supposed to be a UE flaw).

And Beerus not being mentioned isn’t important because the movies already covers it. I think you should reread your last paragraph that describes you more than me. I won’t argue that people make mistakes but so do fans. It is clear that you just want Beerus at the top and like many others don’t like that Uchida threw Broly’s name in.

I don't know if we made this clear enough, but the interview is covering manga content. Goku only said to the galatic patrol that Broly was too strong for two Super Saiyan Blue. If Toyotaro wanted to compare Broly with Beerus, like was made in the movie, he would have done so. He had at least 4 opportunities to do it (1. when Goku told Broly's story to Merus; 2. when Goku asked Whis if he knew someone stronger than him after they defeated Moro; 3. when Uchida brought up Broly's name in the interview; 4. when Toyotaro described his podium for Granolah arc).

It's not the first time anime, manga and movie take different routes from each other. But why make such a distinction in this case, you may ask. Because in the current manga story arc, Broly is not even among the four strongest warriors in Universe #7, let alone stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than those four warriors by default. It's not a matter of liking or trying to scrutize thrown away names from interviews, it's about paying attention to the narrative being presented to you.

So, while we are at it, and I promise, this will be our last interaction about this subject, I see no problem about thinking the movies may have a different powerscale. Great Priest > Whis > Broly > Beerus > Granolah > Goku (silver) is fine.

[KentMan]

It should be noted there was a point in the exhibition match that Goku lost track of the fight and none explained to him what was happening, so he didn't know the gods of destruction had the ability to get stronger. About UE being proclaimed to be off-limits, I'm just repeating Beerus' own words, corroborated by Vegeta, but of course Vegeta vs. Granolah showed there is a limit to UE, which may vary depending on the user (Vegeta implies his UE is inferior to Beerus', by the way). So, despite having that ability, Beerus can still be scared of Great Priest and Omni-King (this case in particular because strength has no effect on him, so it's not supposed to be a UE flaw).


I don't know if we made this clear enough, but the interview is covering manga content. Goku only said to the galatic patrol that Broly was too strong for two Super Saiyan Blue. If Toyotaro wanted to compare Broly with Beerus, like was made in the movie, he would have done so. He had at least 4 opportunities to do it (1. when Goku told Broly's story to Merus; 2. when Goku asked Whis if he knew someone stronger than him after they defeated Moro; 3. when Uchida brought up Broly's name in the interview; 4. when Toyotaro described his podium for Granolah arc).

It's not the first time anime, manga and movie take different routes from each other. But why make such a distinction in this case, you may ask. Because in the current manga story arc, Broly is not even among the four strongest warriors in Universe #7, let alone stronger than Beerus, who is stronger than those four warriors by default. It's not a matter of liking or trying to scrutize thrown away names from interviews, it's about paying attention to the narrative being presented to you.

So, while we are at it, and I promise, this will be our last interaction about this subject, I see no problem about thinking the movies may have a different powerscale. Great Priest > Whis > Broly > Beerus > Granolah > Goku (silver) is fine.

I never said UE was off limits the GP made it known that no one was to hold back. Again we don’t know if these guys transform or if they’re just in the Ego state as they are. And Goku would know something after seeing that and so would Jiren since he’s above his destroyer.It’s clear to me you’re just guessing that Goku never noticed them getting stronger except they didn’t and neither did Vegeta except when he transformed. And speaking of Vegeta his UE being inferior to Beerus is more likely his control of it.

Who’s this we you speak of? The manga content is just as the same as the movies like Broly. And now you’re bringing up all kinds of nonsense that Toyotaro should have done this and that. News flash he works with Toriyama and he has on camera admitted that he can’t do what he wants without Toriyama say so. You’re the one with the issue here you talk about narrative that has never had Beerus higher than Broly. No where in the manga has Toyotaro or even in interviews say that Broly was nothing to Beerus. Other wise we be seeing Goku UI vs Beerus to clear that up or Broly vs Beerus to make the same comparison. The movies and the manga don’t have different scaling all scaling is Toriyama word.