Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 82 - Official Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

I truly, truly meant to post that in the general manga thread, as it has nothing to do with Chapter 82.

[theherodjl]

While this revelation of Goku remembering his parents is simply Toriyama's revision of Goku's origin(DB Minus and all that), it is interesting that Goku does have even a very minor attachment to his biological family after all. Personally, it did bother me that Goku seemingly had no desire or curiosity about his family in the slightest when it could've provided a(now)addition to his character. To just write off any connection that he had to his family or heritage always felt like Goku was missing a little piece to his puzzle, even if the majority of the picture was legible.
That's just me though, I'm sure the hardcore fans of the OG series are smacking their faces with 2000's-era DB manga & DVD copies.

[batistabus]

I brought up the idea that we'd finally see Gas under pressure a few chapters ago, and that finally happened this chapter. And how did he act? Like a child. Like a brat. Gas condemned Goku for not knowing who he was, but Gas has no identity on his own. He only exists to serve Elec, and while that might be a purpose, it amounts to a shallow life of servitude. He never has to make any decisions for himself, and the few times he tried - like when he wanted to refuse the wish - he crumbled immediately. Without someone telling him what to do, he would be completely lost. Let's see if the story has room for him to grow from here...

[Lukmendes]

I'd argue that every arc of the original manga's "Z" half - incidentally around the time Dragon Ball became a more tonally serious work - has its own distinct (and maybe even intended) themes, given the occurrence and re-occurrence of specific key words and ideas. Don't even get me started on Toriyama's modern post-DB material. But that's neither here nor there.

It's definitely possible, whatever the hell Toriyama introduced in Cell saga was always directly connected with Gero, and with hindsight in mind, as early as Goku starting training with Gohan has him saying "I want you to become stronger than me", that was setting up Gohan to be the one to kill Cell, so there is stuff that is intentional, just can be hard to say what is and isn't when it's not blatantly obvious, 'cause Boo saga for example has characters seeing someone's power and only being impressed how strong they are afterwards, like when Shin sees Gohan's SS2 but only realizes how strong saiyans are while they're fighting Babidi's minions, or Goku fighting Kid Boo and only realizing how strong he is during the fight (Despite having already fought Boo, both as himself and as Vegetto), so is that an intentional thing? Or just a weird blunder that just happened to repeat itself? Lol.

Current Toriyama, can't speak for him in his non-DB stuff, but the stuff in DB are definitely more telegraphed nowadays, with RoF in particular pointing out that Goku drops his guard earlier in the movie, and then it being repeated, twice, that he drops his guard after he got shot.

Well, Goku was a little bastard as a Saiyan, the head trauma changed his personality completely.
Maybe Goku has his old personality return and mix with his current self?

That would certainly make this possible outcome more interesting.

Honestly the "old" personality was just a baby/kid being a brat, at most Goku can have more violent instincts return, but it really shouldn't change his personality that much, if at all.

Specially shouldn't go as evil as that DB After dounjinshi lol.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I brought up the idea that we'd finally see Gas under pressure a few chapters ago, and that finally happened this chapter. And how did he act? Like a child. Like a brat. Gas condemned Goku for not knowing who he was, but Gas has no identity on his own. He only exists to serve Elec, and while that might be a purpose, it amounts to a shallow life of servitude. He never has to make any decisions for himself, and the few times he tried - like when he wanted to refuse the wish - he crumbled immediately. Without someone telling him what to do, he would be completely lost. Let's see if the story has room for him to grow from here...

I feel like Gas does have some identity - just that it isn't truly found in the role he's been given as part of the Heeters. And that's the thing that's caused the tension for him across the arc.

From the things said in Chapter 82, Gas seems to me to be less like a fighty mook and more a continuation of a character-type we've already seen in Dragon Ball: the talented, but not naturally battle-inclined individual, who has been forced by circumstance and his compatriots to embrace that activity (see also: Gohan, Broly). Gas was weak and scared once, but thanks to familial pressure squeezing him into this fighting role and drawing out what he is capable of, he's acting the part of a super-powered enforcer, with the mannerisms that he thinks that entails (i.e., the stereotypical 'Toriyama stoic badass antagonist'), like Gohan acts like a super-sentai goofball hero (or, more seriously, tries consciously to step into Goku's shoes in the later stages of the Buu arc), or Broly acts like a savage Saiyan warrior, despite those things naturally entailing fighting, which they really don't enjoy.

Whenever we've seen the Heeters talk among themselves about their plans, Gas seems to be the one who understands and always has his eye on the end goal of Elec's schemes, which suggests to me that he might naturally be more inclined to think the way Elec does (i.e., as the 'brains' of the outfit). But that position's taken; Elec needs muscle to carry his plots, not another brain. And Gas has the talent. So whatever his natural inclinations, Gas has to be the muscle. But it's not exactly just plain compulsion, either: because Gas thinks the way Elec does, he idolises him and generally follows his line (in the same way Gohan is devoted to Goku, or Broly has a twisted devotion to Paragus); he wants to be useful in the way Elec has laid out because he sees the end goal (despite the frustrations and resentments of being 'frozen out' for the last 40 years with someone else playing his role), and actually wants to advance it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's the 'revelation' that Gas's life has been cut drastically short by the wish, only for him to say something like '...I know. That was the plan the whole time', and to continue right on as he was.

Ultimately, I guess, Gas is a poseur in an arc full of people striking their particular 'pose' against their true natures: Granolah as a remorseless Avenger, Vegeta as a callous Destroyer, and Goku as...himself, but not his true self (an inadvertent 'pose').

[Mr Baggins]

That's just me though, I'm sure the hardcore fans of the OG series are smacking their faces with 2000's-era DB manga & DVD copies.

I don't think it's a problem either. Goku is still his own man, but now he's learning more about himself. His individualism is so far preserved.

Contrary to Dragon Ball, there's a wealth of other manga series that do the "predestined child" thing without the slightest nuance or thematic subtlety. I won't name names, but one extremely popular shonen did that just this week and dialed it up to 11.

Current Toriyama, can't speak for him in his non-DB stuff, but the stuff in DB are definitely more telegraphed nowadays

For sure. Toriyama 100% wrote the original manga by the seat of his pants, and still managed to make it great in spite of, and sometimes because of, his hectic scheduling. His modern DB material is absolutely more cohesive and planned out; which, for Super, works to the benefit of the manga and movies where he's evidently more involved anyway.

For modern non-DB stories, Sand Land is a personal favorite of mine. Lots of exploration into racial, environmentalist and socioeconomic topics there, all delivered in Toriyama's rapid pacing and quirky style. Truly underrated stuff.

[emperior]

Well, Goku was a little bastard as a Saiyan, the head trauma changed his personality completely.
Maybe Goku has his old personality return and mix with his current self?

That would certainly make this possible outcome more interesting.

I’m not sure that’s how psychology works. Goku has already embedded himself with his own kind personality due to his brain damage and from his own 30 years of life experience. I don’t believe it’s plausible for him to completely regress his personality because he remembered his dad saying “stay alive”, but perhaps a second opinion should be heard in this topic.

Yeah I agree.

In fact actually the opposite should happen, ie Goku would fine even more inner peace, as those memories that were still in his subconscious may have been what was keeping him from truly reaching complete calm, and thus the full Ultra Instinct potential.

[Pafupafu]

Just throwing out a theory on Bardock here…

“Listen to me…you two have to stay alive.”

This line just alludes to there being some sort of power up in relation to protecting others. Some sort of tribal instinct power that requires Granolah and Monaito to remain alive in order for Bardock to have a fighting purpose. Just based on the new powers introduced and the group power up process for SSG, I just think that’s where this might lead.

It also gives a bit more context to why Bardock would fly right up to Freeza in one last ditch attempt to thwart his destroying the planet - but because Kakarot was off world and Raditz was a dick, he just didn’t have enough…This adds some more connection to Goku and Planet Vegeta’s destruction which I think ties a nice bow around reintroducing the whole Minus storyline.

Food for thought!

[TKA]

This fandom is so obsessed with power ups, transformations and the like. It’s the most boring aspect of the series because you can find transformations and power ups in every popular manga.

The characters in this series are uniquely dragonball’s and you can’t find them elsewhere. Shouldn’t the obvious answer then be that character development is more worthy of this discussion?

[The Monkey King]

This fandom is so obsessed with power ups, transformations and the like. It’s the most boring aspect of the series because you can find transformations and power ups in every popular manga.

The characters in this series are uniquely dragonball’s and you can’t find them elsewhere. Shouldn’t the obvious answer then be that character development is more worthy of this discussion?

Get your head out of your ass please. The context of which transformations occur can make them very emotionally powerful scenes, to many fans (myself included) they comprise some of the most iconic scenes in the franchise.

But let me guess you yawned when Goku transformed into a super saiyan for the first time? Because you're such a high IQ, enlightened Dragon Ball fan, who enjoys it on a deeper level than lesser fans?

Give me a fucking break, you're on a forum dedicated to a Shonen Battle Manga and you're whining about people being hyped about transformations

Here's something that will shock you, transformations and character development often intermix



"I AM THE SUPER SAIYAN SON GOKU!"

[VegettoEX]

This was absolutely a laughably excessive and inappropriate way to respond, and due to the amount of existing account strikes and specific content, a lengthy ban has been issued.

[TKA]

The context of which transformations occur can make them very emotionally powerful scenes

Correct.

But this is modern Dragonball. Toriyama mocked how willy nilly transformations were handed out with the "super saiyan bargain sale" line, and even he decided that adding more super saiyan forms was diminishing returns (hence why fusions happened). This was decades ago.

That we are now in an era where there's a constant stream of new transformations in various media sorta makes them as impactful as a cottonball. What does Bardock being given a transformation add to any of this beyond giving you new Dragonball Heroes trading cards to buy?

Goku's Super Saiyan God and the manga's version of Goku's Ultra Instinct are the only transformations since Dragonball's original manga ended that have any kind of weight to them. Now consider just how many other transformations have been introduced since 1996, and how many characters have been given extra transformations.

Of course, this is all subjective as hell.

But let me guess you yawned when Goku transformed into a super saiyan for the first time? Because you're such a high IQ, enlightened Dragon Ball fan, who enjoys it on a deeper level than lesser fans?

Goku's transformation to Super Saiyan is some of the best writing in the series. It's built up over the course of almost an entire arc, with references being made to this "super saiyan" thing, made even better because we don't know what it looks like, which means we were never sure who was a super saiyan and who wasn't. But I digress. The transformation itself wasn't what made that moment notable. It's what it meant for the character that mattered.

I.Q. is for losers.

Give me a fucking break, you're on a forum dedicated to a Shonen Battle Manga and you're whining about people being hyped about transformations

Good point.

But also, you're on a forum dedicated to discussion and you're whining about people wanting discussion.

Here's something that will shock you, transformations and character development often intermix

Cool, man. Now tell me something I don't know.

[JulieYBM]

Transformations are cool! It's also cool when there are no transformations! I also enjoyed the palpable sense of dread felt when, say, we learned that Toguro was on a B-class demon in Yuu Yuu Hakusho. The thing is that 'battle powers' and the like aren't always sustainable or fun to write and ultimately mean nothing except a headache for writers trying to get tell a story they want to tell. Imagine how much of a pain in the ass it would be to be writing Dragon Ball and really want to, say, bring Mira-kun back but, whoops, now you have to explain why he's able to fuck up Gokuu in a fight because MajinAkuma69 is going to make seventeen four hour YouTube videos complaining about the power-scaling? Sounds like zero fun to me.

Anyway, I hope Gas kicks the shit out of Elec. I'm honestly curious as to how Elec will be defeated at this point. Will the catharsis simply be in Gas or Granola killing him in one shot or will he live to fight another day?

[Skar]

This fandom is so obsessed with power ups, transformations and the like. It’s the most boring aspect of the series because you can find transformations and power ups in every popular manga.

The characters in this series are uniquely dragonball’s and you can’t find them elsewhere. Shouldn’t the obvious answer then be that character development is more worthy of this discussion?

Is this a response to Pafupafu? I don't think he was obsessing over transformations and just speculating what Bardock did to defeat Gas since the story was hinting that Goku might use it to end this fight.

[Pafupafu]

This fandom is so obsessed with power ups, transformations and the like. It’s the most boring aspect of the series because you can find transformations and power ups in every popular manga.

The characters in this series are uniquely dragonball’s and you can’t find them elsewhere. Shouldn’t the obvious answer then be that character development is more worthy of this discussion?

Is this a response to Pafupafu? I don't think he was obsessing over transformations and just speculating what Bardock did to defeat Gas since the story was hinting that Goku might use it to end this fight.

If it is was in response to me, he missed the point. There’s a clear difference between transformations and power-ups/energy infusions. Saiyans get a power up when they recover from near death, this “protector”theory would be a similar type of re-energizing scenario.

I mean - there’s gotta be some sort of new hook to solve the mystery of Bardock defeating Gas. We will know soon enough - I just thought that line stood out as odd for someone from a warrior race who just met these folks.

Transformations are fine too and a fun way to escalate the main characters. I greatly preferred the Super Saiyan God process over just achieving a new level through training though - it made the most sense from a storytelling perspective. Everything since has been a bit forced, but nothing worth complaining about. This isn’t Hamlet - it’s a fun and frenetic serialized action comic.

[Skar]

Transformations are fine too and a fun way to escalate the main characters. I greatly preferred the Super Saiyan God process over just achieving a new level through training though - it made the most sense from a storytelling perspective. Everything since has been a bit forced, but nothing worth complaining about. This isn’t Hamlet - it’s a fun and frenetic serialized action comic.

DB did inspire many of the transformations in shonen but I'm fine with them being discussed. There's a difference between discussing power levels/strength comparisons which have their own threads and discussing how a transformation or power-up will be relevant to the current story. In this case, it's only speculating what Bardock did to defeat Gas because the story hinted that it might come into play now. I also assume it's a one time power-up because he gets killed by Freeza in a few years.

[OrangeBanana]

This fandom is so obsessed with power ups, transformations and the like. It’s the most boring aspect of the series because you can find transformations and power ups in every popular manga.

The characters in this series are uniquely dragonball’s and you can’t find them elsewhere. Shouldn’t the obvious answer then be that character development is more worthy of this discussion?

I really don't understand what the intention is with this post? Like people do discuss character development in the fandom (and even this thread, just go read the early pages), its just that with how the manga is paced its difficult to make some good discussion about any character, sometimes the development is so minor and pointless that its not worth writing essays about.

Also your last point about these characters being uniquely dragon ball, isn't that true for any long running manga? It doesn't make dragon ball any more or less special.

[Hugo Boss]

I just remembered something. Does Perfect Ultra Instinct have an aura yet? If not, I think Toyotaro would just add an aura to it and call it a day.

[Miracles]

Anyway, I hope Gas kicks the shit out of Elec. I'm honestly curious as to how Elec will be defeated at this point. Will the catharsis simply be in Gas or Granola killing him in one shot or will he live to fight another day?

I believe it won't be easy getting rid of Elec. After he made the wish for Gas to be the strongest; while Gas was fighting Granolah, Elec secretly committed to "one more urgent errand."

Elec always "hedges the risks." So I believe he has something up his sleeve just in case Gas fails.

[JulieYBM]

Anyway, I hope Gas kicks the shit out of Elec. I'm honestly curious as to how Elec will be defeated at this point. Will the catharsis simply be in Gas or Granola killing him in one shot or will he live to fight another day?

I believe it won't be easy getting rid of Elec. After he made the wish for Gas to be the strongest; while Gas was fighting Granolah, Elec secretly committed to "one more urgent errand."

Elec always "hedges the risks." So I believe he has something up his sleeve just in case Gas fails.

Yeah, wanna see Elec really fleshed out and built into a threat that the reader becomes invested in seeing his ideology knocked down.