What's the deal with "FPSSJ3"? - one of the most enduring misconceptions in the community

[Saturnine]

If you've spent any amount of time on the internet during the last 20 or so years, you no doubt have come across a notion that many people seemed to love to proliferate - and some still do - that Goku was stronger against Kid Buu than he was when he fought Fat Buu, represented by describing him as "Full Power SSj3", whereas during his fight with Fat Buu he was only a "regular" SSj3.

It's really surprising how enduring this viewpoint is, given that not only is there nothing in the manga that would even remotely hint at this, but there is in fact a wealth of material that directly contradicts it - most notably the statement by Goku that he would need to gather ki to gain a decisive advantage over Kid Buu - meaning that for the majority of their fight his powerlevel was not the maximum he was supposed to be capable of. More than that - he detransformed when trying to gather said ki, as his living body simply couldn't handle all that power at the moment. Which clearly hints that he could have done it (or at least had an easier time with it) had he remained dead. That alone makes "FPSSj3" dubious at best.

I would be fair though to point out that Goku did seem to have a much more comfortable time fighting Fat Buu, meaning that he could have even held back a bit. Then again, there is no indication that SSj3 lets you particularly suppress your powerlevel, which leads many to believe that he was just not putting in all the effort he could have. But even still, the sole fact that the fight against Kid Buu required much more engagement on Goku's part speaks noting of Goku's powerlevel actually being higher against Kid Buu - only the enemy being somewhat closer to his own power, which could very well have been the same, or even arguably lower for the reasons given above.

So what do you think this whole "FPSSj3" thing is? To me it looks like nothing more than a ploy to play up Kid Buu for the sake of arguing that he was the strongest form of Buu - because without this, the difference in power between Kid Buu and the original Fat Buu doesn't seem all that striking whatsoever, and cramming all the other forms of Buu in between in terms of power makes one wonder what did Buu need all those many forms for. Arguing for a separate and completely new power level for Goku widens that gap somewhat, making it at least a tiny bit more defensible position to place Fat Buu at the very bottom and Kid Buu at the very top. But it feels extremely forced regardless and would still mean that Buu had the most forms out of any villain, with the least battle power significance. It would still pretty much put all Buus within say, 1,5x of each other from the low to the high end. So why even bother?

And that makes me think it's nothing more than a retroactively formed opinion, a strawman made to justify a preconceived notion (in this case Kid Buu being > all Buus and SSj3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan), because there is a lack of more concrete evidence to support this idea. Kinda like the idea that FPSSj accelerated training gains, so that you can both acknowledge that Goku was stronger than Grade 3 Trunks, but that the multiplier was still 50x. Kinda like having your cookie and eating it at the same time.

So what do you guys think about this?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah people tend to misinterpret SSJ3 Goku’s power a lot. He said he’d be going full throttle on Kid Boo from the start and later that his power kept falling. SSJ3 is just a very taxing form, and Goku needed Vegeta to buy him time so he could charge, just like he bought time for Piccolo vs Raditz.

This thing about SSJ3 not being capable of suppression always felt off though. Vegeta says he never felt blows as heavy as Kid Boo’s, so Fat Boo’s hits didn’t feel as heavy and was going toe to toe with Goku. I think it’s pretty clear both Goku and Fat Boo were holding back when they fought.

[Lionel]

I could believe Kid Buu being stronger than Fat Buu if only for the fact that he seemed to have Goku on the ropes moreso than his obese counterpart. The original fat version may have been toying with Goku to an extent but just compare the aftermath when he bowed out from battling Fat Buu compared to Vegeta tagging in against Kid Buu. An ethereal body may have been more capable of enduring the rigours of Super Saiyan 3 but I doubt it was somehow strengthening the output of the Saiyan form.

What many describe as 'full power Super Saiyan 3' is little more than Goku concentrating his power in preparation for a final all out attack. It isn't much different than Gohan consolidating his power in Super Saiyan 2 for a final Kamehameha attack against Cell. Now about the premise of a Super Saiyan 3 form akin to Goku's mastered SSJ form used in the late Cell arc -- we don't know if that's possible for SSJ3. Considering the inherent stamina weakness of SSJ3 I have a hard time believing it though the blue form has a similar weakness and look how Goku and Vegeta were able to mitigate it.

[ankokudaishogun]

as a side note, with SuperDBHeroes we now DO have a SS3 Full Power form, used by Cumber

[theherodjl]

I don't know if I've ever heard of it referred to as "FPSSJ3" but I have definitely have seen the argument that Goku was somehow stronger in his fight against Pure Boo than he was against all other forms of Boo; usually through some contrived explanation that Goku got stronger as he continued to fight or quietly received a zenkai along the way.
I half-blame Toriyama for the whole thing since he unintentionally made it at least somewhat ambiguous when introducing Pure Boo as being "the most dangerous Boo" when "dangerous" in DB can be synonymous with "strong". Most DB villains fit both categories so at a time when the strongest villain to ever appear in the series was around, it's not a crazy assumption to believe that Pure Boo could be the strongest given the terms and phrases put toward him. Even though we know he clearly wasn't the strongest, there is just enough room to leave doubt to the fact due to Toriyama's rush to get the story completed to properly address it.

[coola]

In-Universe explanation was that FPSSJ3 was no problem to maintain when he was dead, but it was too much for living body.

[Seekeroftruth]

To me, I always thought Fat buu was a SSJ2 tier opponent who could compete against SSJ3 fighters due to his regenerative ability. I always considered SSJ3 Goku to be overall more powerful initially than Fat buu but that power decreases throughout the fight and could tip things in Buu's favour.

I think as you move up SSJ forms, the amount of energy needed to maintain that form becomes to taxing for you to ever master it. And by the time you have the energy reserves to tinker with mastering the form (aka by DB: Super), they have become completely obsolete. Case in point, Goku's fight against Jiren. Both SSJ2 and SSJ3 forms were utterly useless and did 0 damage to him. While Jiren for the very least at least started defending against Goku once he reached SSG.

[TheFallenProfit]

There is no FPSSJ3 but Goku against Kid Boo was indeed far stronger than when he fought Fat Boo.

It's stated in the Daizenshuu that Goku's feelings were only understood by his fellow strongest which was their description of Goku's wish to rematch Kid Boo at the end of the fight. This puts both Goku and Kid Boo as the strongest characters at the end of the arc.

Goku already stated that the energy from just his friends and family wouldn't be enough to beat Kid Boo meaning Ultimate Gohan wasn't stronger than Kid Boo which lends further validation to Kid Boo being in the top 2 strongest characters.

[TobyS]

There is no FPSSJ3 but Goku against Kid Boo was indeed far stronger than when he fought Fat Boo.

It's stated in the Daizenshuu that Goku's feelings were only understood by his fellow strongest which was their description of Goku's wish to rematch Kid Boo at the end of the fight. This puts both Goku and Kid Boo as the strongest characters at the end of the arc.

Goku already stated that the energy from just his friends and family wouldn't be enough to beat Kid Boo meaning Ultimate Gohan wasn't stronger than Kid Boo which lends further validation to Kid Boo being in the top 2 strongest characters.

Oh don't start this bollocks again. They only donated Genki to the Genki dama which is one of three parts of ki (and presumably not even thirds)

I have no idea what line you are talking about because Gokus line was him thinking outloud and overheard by yemna and Gohan was not even present.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I never understood that fellow strongest quote. In what way does Boo understand Goku when he’s not even rational? The only person to actually understand Goku was Vegeta as we saw in his little monologue saying he finally understands why Goku is the way he is.

[Koitsukai]

I can understand ancillary material saying this guy is this strong, or this form is x times stronger than the previous one, but the daizenshuu being some kind of counselor that can understand the feelings of the characters, something not even hinted at in the manga, is a fucking stretch. They really go to town with everything.

We need to stop taking these magazines as some kind of biblical proof of anything.

[Saturnine]

I can understand ancillary material saying this guy is this strong, or this form is x times stronger than the previous one, but the daizenshuu being some kind of counselor that can understand the feelings of the characters, something not even hinted at in the manga, is a fucking stretch. They really go to town with everything.

We need to stop taking these magazines as some kind of biblical proof of anything.

Well to be perfectly fair, supplementary material has played a huge, huge role in shaping people's opinions, which can't be overstated. I still remember what powerlevel lists and discussions looked like before 2007 when the Super Exciting Guide came out. Most people thought SSj2 was a 6-8x multiplier, because that's what they arrived at by independent analysis of the manga, but now everyone seems to be content with the 2x multi even though that dooms say, Grade 2 and 3 to having a ridiculously small boost over standard Super Saiyan which is less than 2x. This has also led to underselling Grade 4 a whole deal, since many people are adamant for the 50x multiplier to be kept regardless of everything (failing to address that Grade 2 could be put on top of it in that case, and coming up with unconvincing explanations for why that hasn't been done).

Same story with Daiz - it's a good reference source, but in some cases stuff there is plain wrong, not substantiated well enough by the manga itself, or contradicting what was stated or shown in the manga. In such cases the manga should take precedence - the guides are not Toriyama's own work and are far from being infallible.

[Grimlock]

If I were to guess, I think Super Saiyan Grade 2 multiplier is x75, making it a perfect "Super Saiyan 1.5". I also assume Super Saiyan Grade 3 to be even stronger than Super Saiyan 2, by having a multiplier above x100. I think that's a nice trade-off since, as we know, its speed/muscle mass is a major hindrance. Cell says Trunks is stronger than him (and Piccolo also says Trunks is stronger than Cell, for what is worth).

As for Super Saiyan Full Power/Super Saiyan Grade 4, there's nothing "underselling" it, it's just another case of people misinterpreting stuff. Its purpose was to get rid of all drawbacks, to make Super Saiyan easier to maintain for longer periods and whatnot. All of this is reiterated throughout the following chapters by characters making comments after Goku and Gohan left the chamber. It was never supposed to provide a bigger increase in power (i.e. to have a bigger multiplier) over the regular Super Saiyan, this is a misconception based on nothing. As nothing even hints to that. So it makes sense that "people are adamant for the 50x multiplier to be kept regardless".



Anyway, as for the thread itself, I don't think any character (other than Cumber) achieved anything similar to a "Super Saiyan 3 Full Power". Do we even know where that come from (before Cumber showed up, that is)?

[theherodjl]

Given that the grades have never had official multipliers along with the fact that Trunks was seemingly just pulling more and more power out of his butt with SSJG3, it's possible that FPSSJ could be stronger than ordinary SSJ whether it be by a miniscule or a noticeable amount. Goku & Gohan's gains through their training could mask any power increase from FPSSJ as the point was more about stamina control than powering up...but it doesn't totally discount a power up since power ups in DB are not universally defined as being any specific amount greater than before. SSJ Grade 2 is a power up but so is Ultra Ego; there's a ridiculously high difference in what amount said forms powers up the individual.

[Kaboom]

The only way I suspect that FP/Mastered Super Saiyan might be "stronger" than the Grades is in the attack amplification department. It'd stand to reason that being more relaxed and having better control over your power may allow you to channel it more effectively and put more "oomph" into your blasts.

Like Goku using Grade 3 might be a 100 and able to put out attacks of 200, while with FPSS he's got a baseline power of 50 but can put out attacks at 250. Something like that.

[Saturnine]

If I were to guess, I think Super Saiyan Grade 2 multiplier is x75, making it a perfect "Super Saiyan 1.5". I also assume Super Saiyan Grade 3 to be even stronger than Super Saiyan 2, by having a multiplier above x100. I think that's a nice trade-off since, as we know, its speed/muscle mass is a major hindrance. Cell says Trunks is stronger than him (and Piccolo also says Trunks is stronger than Cell, for what is worth).

There's SOOO much I have to say about this. But not to derail this discussion, let's move this elsewhere:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=47340