Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 85 - Official Discussion Thread

[YamiGoku]

God I hope after all this mystery, Elec isn't just going to be "I will use my siblings for my own personal elevation". It's rote as fuck, and the predictable route. Do something different.

I think at this point is pretty much confirmed with this chapter, unless there is a twist, but, the way Elec just keeps forcing Gas to drain his life for more power, it makes it pretty obvious that he is your typical boring villian with no redeeming qualities.

[Xeno Goku Black]

It's alright and all but it's just dragging. Since Chapter 72 it's been almost the same thing.

Goku fights Granolah, then Vegeta fights Granolah, then Goku fights Granolah, then Vegeta fights Granolah, then Granolah fights Gas, then Vegeta fights Gas, then Goku fights Gas, then Vegeta fights Gas, then Goku fights Gas.

It's just going around in circles. It's tedious.

[Mr Baggins]

This arc is such a snorefest that I forgot a chapter came out today.

Other than nothing happening again, as is typical of the Granolah the Survivor Gas the Sideshow arc, this new approach to Ultra Instinct truly stinks on multiple levels. It fails on a characterization level because it resets Goku's mentality as a martial artist back to that time he was getting curbstomped by Jiren. It fails on a consistency level because the last arc already demonstrated the (massive) difference in performance between Sign and the silver-haired form. Characters have been talking about Sign's inferiority since Whis first brought it up in the ToP. Ladies, gents, this here's what we call a good ol' retcon.

This isn't to say that I'm unaware of what Toyotaro is trying to do. Given the circumstances, Goku can't adopt a calm mindset to make adequate use of UI at the moment, so the manga is rationalizing Sign because it allows Goku to use his emotions freely now that he's more accustomed to UI's principles. Except, well, oops: Moro's arc already flatly established that he needs a calm heart to even trigger silver-haired UI in the first place, which he just did last chapter. So which is it? Even if you stretch all this into making sense, the presentation of it is nothing short of flimsy, clumsy, and confusing. Toriyama might have written DB on the fly, but he was generally better at retcons and post-hoc explanations than Toyotaro. Dragon Ball is meant to be an easily understandable work for children.

I could go on, but honestly, I don't even have the motivation to keep discussing it. These character throughlines are hilariously circular. Ultra Instinct is a mess now. How very lame and uninspired.

And again, the biggest offense of all is we've been in filler hell for a full pregnancy term. I can't stress how over this I am. We've officially hit sub-GT levels of storytelling, lol.

God I hope after all this mystery, Elec isn't just going to be "I will use my siblings for my own personal elevation". It's rote as fuck, and the predictable route. Do something different.

I feel like we're already there, unfortunately. Elec turned out to be another generic bad guy.

[Skar]

It was a pretty slow chapter. I like that we learn more about the wish Elec made for Gas. It seems it keeps sacrificing more of his lifespan to keep him the strongest. Maybe he dies next chapter or Goku convinces him to stop fighting before it happens. I wonder if they would resurrect him if he did die. They wish back Paragus or any of Moro's henchmen so probably not.

[HeroR]

Overall, I always disliked how Toyo writes UI as far back to the TOP and said it was inferior to how the anime presented it, especially his take on UI Signs. And this chapter only further confirms that Toyo doesn't know how to write UI. The closest he came was UI vs Moro and he went and dumped that out the window this arc all because he made UI too good against Moro, so Toyo gave UI the WOW balance patch treatment.

[TKA]

A friend and I talked a bit about this chapter. He was really down on Vegeta losing here. Stuff I said:

Ultra Ego is exactly as stupid as ultra instinct though, as far as writing goes. If you write ultra instinct, you’re writing a boring fight where all the attacks get dodged until he wins. If you write ultra ego, you’re writing a boring fight where one guy keeps getting hit until he wins.

These forms are okay with me because they actually have gimmicks instead of just being power boosts, but those gimmicks are drama killers. If you’re writing these forms, the only way to establish any tension is to have the characters de-transform (has happened to Vegeta twice this arc, and has happened to Goku multiple times).

It’s pretty clear that ultra instinct and ego are the endpoints of these power ups. They represent the martial arts master finding enlightenment, and in doing so becoming a true master. The only tension left is how arbitrarily long they can stay in these states.

But as is, fights won’t have any tension as long as these forms are around with these gimmicks. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing: this is supposedly peace time.

[Koitsukai]

I hope there was a point in bringing Vegeta back from the nurse's office, there was no need for his return to the battlefield, and as of now it served no purpose.

The previous chapter ended hinting at Vegeta stepping up... Only for this one to have him get sto(m)pped in his tracks soon enough. If it was to show how unready he still is, then that was already true, no need for another pointless fight to show what we already know.

Whatever is in store for Geets, I cannot see yet what would possibly need him to fight Gas and get badly injured again, in order to work. Too soon to tell, but trimming off his comeback would've given the arc a needed change of pace.

[Lord Beerus]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 85:

- Some really nice fight choreography

- Hang on a second... so with Ultra Instinct Sign, Goku is more powerful in that form than Mastered Ultra Instinct since he's not constrained by keeping emotions calm? That makes no fucking sense at all with what has been seen of Ultra Instinct in the manga. Goku used Ultra Instinct Sign and tried to max out his power output with that form against Moro in the previous arc and couldn't beat him since it was weaker than Mastered Ultra Instinct.

- What the hell is the endgame with Ultra Ego? It hasn't really done anything for Vegeta as a character or had any significant impact on the development of the plot. All Vegeta has done this whole arc when using Ultra Ego is get his ass stomped into the dirt, get back up, start mouthing off, and then get wrecked again. What good is all the strength Ultra Ego can provide if you have to obtain it through an ass beating that your body can’t handle?

- This chapter really highlighted the major problem when you have Goku and Vegeta be the only characters of relevance -- there's little to no room for another meaningful powerup or strategy to be developed once a fight starts because there's no secondary narrative to provide the support for that alternative. In the original manga, when Toriyama would be sideling characters he would always make replace them with new ones to ensure the roster was wide enough that the narrative had the opportunity to pull in characters from offscreen and with their own power-ups or different techniques so that the story wouldn't feel reliant on one character (or two at best) to drive the plot and create a sense of tedium or stagnation repeatedly stacked on a single character. Dragon Ball Super at this stage feels like an American comic book -- because there is no growth or sense of progression beyond a surface level.

- Man... every new transformation Gas gets is somehow uglier than the previous one.

- The fight is going in circles. Ultra Instinct Sign made Goku stronger than Gas when it’s literally an incomplete and weaker version of Mastered Ultra Instinct which Goku was previously using to fight Gas with and was getting his ass kicked when using it. I'm not really a power scaling guy but... what? This makes no goddamn sense.

- Remember Granolah, guys? Anyone? Anyone? *sigh* That poor fucker. Benched in his own arc.

- In the end... nothing really happened that the last dozen chapters haven't already done before.

Overall thoughts... next chapter, please.

[LightBing]

More of the same.

Start of the chapter with Vegeta gaining time is the same plot point as against Pure Boo. Extra points for the mouth blast which is a copy of Gotenks vs Super Boo.

UI has become so convoluted that it reached contradiction. There's no direction.

This manga has fallen of a cliff since the ToP arc. I'm speculating but that's probably when Toriyama became even more "hands-off".
Toyotarõ isn't doing a good job, the extensive panels and plot points he just copies from the original manga say it all.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I was fine with the Moro arc, I think that did have some good things going for it. It made use of a lot of the characters and did expand the universe by showing more planets that we'd never seen.

This however is the complete opposite. The entire arc has revolved around like four characters and they've been stuck within the same square mile for a year almost.

To be honest, if they did make another anime, I wouldn't be overly bothered if they skipped this entirely. Fights are meant to be exciting. They become exciting when there's build up to them like Goku v Frieza or Goku v Cell or even more recently Goku v Jiren. This however is just non stop fighting, chapter after chapter.

[wertham]

I enjoyed this episode in the vacuum, but overall I only want this saga to end. It began with such an interesting premise and it has been wasted by fighting and more fighting.

About UI in this episode, it's becoming really obvious that Toyo doesn't have a clear idea about where to go with these state / transformation / whatever. I liked the philosophical aspect of Ultra Instinct as an opposite of the rageful Super Saiyan, but now with this new development I don't know what's the purpose of it. Now it seems to be another Super Saiyan form with automatic dodging.

I'm hoping for a more Toriyama supervised saga after this, with less filler fighting and more focus on expanding the lore and a clear direction. I know that Toriyama supposedly wrote the main plot points of this saga, but I'm not really sure if this UI development, for instance, was written by him. I say this because I have the feeling that real developments in characters and world expansion only happens when Toriyama is actively on board.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Thought I'd check this out of curiosity. Goku and Vegeta landed on Cereal in Chapter 72. This is what we've had since then, not counting the flashback stuff.

Goku and Vegeta vs Granolah
Goku vs Granolah
Vegeta vs Granolah
Goku vs Granolah #2
Vegeta vs Granolah #2
Goku and Vegeta vs Gas
Granolah vs Gas
Goku vs Gas
Granolah vs Gas #2
Goku vs Gas #2
Goku and Vegeta vs Gas #2
Vegeta vs Gas
Goku vs Gas #3

I mean Jesus Christ, how repetitive is that?

[wertham]

Thought I'd check this out of curiosity. Goku and Vegeta landed on Cereal in Chapter 72. This is what we've had since then, not counting the flashback stuff.

Goku and Vegeta vs Granolah
Goku vs Granolah
Vegeta vs Granolah
Goku vs Granolah #2
Vegeta vs Granolah #2
Goku and Vegeta vs Gas
Granolah vs Gas
Goku vs Gas
Granolah vs Gas #2
Goku vs Gas #2
Goku and Vegeta vs Gas #2
Vegeta vs Gas
Goku vs Gas #3

I mean Jesus Christ, how repetitive is that?

I was counting the same thing right now

Chapter 72 is the last chapter of Volume 16, and Chapter 85 will be the first chapter of Volume 20. Comparable non-stop battles taking place in one location from the original manga are:

1) The Dragon Team vs Nappa and Vegeta, which lasted from last three chapters of DB Volume 18 to the end of Volume 20 (2 volumes and a quarter).
2) The long battle with Freeza, from the middle of Volume 25 to the end of Volume 27 (2 and a half volumes).
3) The battles between Piccolo, the Androids, Vegeta and Trunks against Cell, from the early middle of Volume 31 to the first quarter of Volume 33 (2 volumes).

All of these examples involved more characters and plot twists than the current saga. This long sequence of battles between Goku, Vegeta, Granola and Gas (with an honorable mention for Bardock) has lasted 3 and a half volumes. And. It's. Not. Over. Yet.

[Xeno Goku Black]

All of these examples involved more characters and plot twists than the current saga. This long sequence of battles between Goku, Vegeta, Granola and Gas (with an honorable mention for Bardock) has lasted 3 and a half volumes. And. It's. Not. Over. Yet.

Even for the same series, the Tournament of Power which consisted of 80 different characters fighting a mega battle royale only lasted 10 chapters or the equivalent of 2 and half volumes.

The entire Goku Black arc was 13 chapters. A whole chapter less than this Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Gas rotation battle....and the chapters were shorter back then too so it wasn't quite three volumes long.

[HeroR]

All of these examples involved more characters and plot twists than the current saga. This long sequence of battles between Goku, Vegeta, Granola and Gas (with an honorable mention for Bardock) has lasted 3 and a half volumes. And. It's. Not. Over. Yet.

Even for the same series, the Tournament of Power which consisted of 80 different characters fighting a mega battle royale only lasted 10 chapters or the equivalent of 2 and half volumes.

The entire Goku Black arc was 13 chapters. A whole chapter less than this Goku, Vegeta, Granolah, Gas rotation battle....and the chapters were shorter back then too so it wasn't quite three volumes long.

Tbf, the Future Trunks Saga (outside of Fusion Zamasu's fights) and USS were rushed in the manga. Kale by herself wiped out 80% of the tournament fighters.

[TKA]

I remember the start of this when my biggest problem was characters could just wish themselves stronger.

Movie stuff:

Spoiler:

Even the new movie shits on the idea that you can do that. Specific spoiler:

Spoiler:

Piccolo doesn't just wish himself stronger. He specifically wishes his potential unlocked. Because being able to just wish to be the strongest is fucking stupid and breaks the story, like I've been saying for over a year.

Now there are so many other problems.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Tbf, the Future Trunks Saga (outside of Fusion Zamasu's fights) and USS were rushed in the manga. Kale by herself wiped out 80% of the tournament fighters.

At this rate I'd prefer it to go back to being rushed a little. At least something was happening, at least we had a story with a beginning, middle and end with multiple characters and locations involved.

Now all we get is the same half dozen characters in the same bit of wasteland.

We haven't so much as seen another Z Fighter in the manga since 2020.

[CashmanX]

This arc has been dragging for so long that the Bra slaughter-fest from Multiverse felt shorter and more engaging than this.

And that's saying a lot.

[HeroR]

This arc has been dragging for so long that the Bra slaughter-fest from Multiverse felt shorter and more engaging than this.

And that's saying a lot.

Probably because Majin Bra was generally more interesting than Gas and I don't even like Bra. That and more than just three people fought.

[Berserker1921]

I think he is letting it drag cause Toriyama prob doesn’t have an idea yet for the next arc after super hero. I hope whatever he and Toyotaro come up with, it will be fun. This arc has its ups and downs. I wish it was a weekly series, it would drag less.