How strong is Base Vegetto (Manga)?

[Lionel]

I would estimate Vegetto in base to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku but weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks, probably leaning closer to Gotenks in his own untransformed state after training whom I do have as being above Goku. A Kaioken amplification could probably allow him to take Super Saiyan Gotenks, I feel.

[Hellspawn28]

Probably at least above Mystic Gohan.

[Mireya]

Well, I've a 10x multiplier for SSJ after the Freeza saga, pretty much, so regressing the power Vegetto used to easily outclass Boo-Gohan by a factor of 10, he'd end up in between SSJ2 Gotenks and SSJ3 Gotenks, more or less. So he'd lose to SSJ3 Gotenks and powers above, but would easily defeat SSJ2 Gotenks (post RoSaT, which I believe was briefly shown when Gotenks was about to turn SSJ3) and powers below that, such as SSJ3 Goku, kid Boo, fat Boo.

[Hugo Boss]

The Elder Kaioshin implied Goku and Gohan fused could probably take on Gotenks-Boo without using Super Saiyan. So, I think the same could be inferred from a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, mutatis mutandis. Having said that, maybe Base Vegetto is on par with Gohan-Boo.

[TobyS]

The Elder Kaioshin implied Goku and Gohan fused could probably take on Gotenks-Boo without using Super Saiyan. So, I think the same could be inferred from a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, mutatis mutandis. Having said that, maybe Base Vegetto is on par with Gohan-Boo.

I think that's more because all of half of them would be "ultimate" potential unlocked etc. Vegeta is weaker to start with and doesn't have that.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The Elder Kaioshin implied Goku and Gohan fused could probably take on Gotenks-Boo without using Super Saiyan. So, I think the same could be inferred from a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, mutatis mutandis. Having said that, maybe Base Vegetto is on par with Gohan-Boo.

I think that's more because all of half of them would be "ultimate" potential unlocked etc. Vegeta is weaker to start with and doesn't have that.

Hugo seems to be going with the idea that they come out to around equal because Goku and Vegeta make a better pairing than Goku and Gohan.

[Mireya]

They'd have to fuse with equal power using the Metamorian fusion though. I think with the Potaras, their bodies would be just stuck together without the need for Gohan to power down. Since Gohan has already a very strong base-like state, that could possibly create a Kuhan with amazing strength in his base state, whereas with Potara fusion, their relatively weak base wouldn't produce necessarily a so strong base warrior.

But base Vegetto is totally speculative, I'm ok with the idea of him being up there with Boo-Gohan too, the anime also seems to support that. I just happen to have him as way below that, using the SSJ multiplier, and since he didn't even fight that way in the manga, I'm ok with where I've him.

[ekrolo2]

Impossible to say. In the Manga he only appears for a couple of pages and immediately transforms. The only thing that can conclusively be said on the matter is that he's not strong enough by his own estimate to beat Boohan without SS.

[TobyS]

Stronger than boohan.
Nothing really contradicts the axb multiplier, and he has to be stronger than ssj3 Goku by a good margin at least so ( i know I'll be controversial but i don't care at all) he's stronger than Gohan too since fullpower Goku is too in the first place

Guidebooks say “more like multiplication than addition" but not straight up.

Lol goku is not stronger than gohan stop being silly.

[p-hyvo]

Stronger than boohan.
Nothing really contradicts the axb multiplier, and he has to be stronger than ssj3 Goku by a good margin at least so ( i know I'll be controversial but i don't care at all) he's stronger than Gohan too since fullpower Goku is too in the first place

Guidebooks say “more like multiplication than addition" but not straight up.

Lol goku is not stronger than gohan stop being silly.

Anyway the thing I said about vegito is not contradicted, regardless of multipliers

About Gohan well... There's like a lot , and I mean a lot of guides and interviews from Toriyama in which he verbatim states that Goku is the strongest warrior for him (obviously vegito not included), and are all pre gt/DBS. Now, if you want to ignore multiple guides entries and multiple statements from the author to fuel your bias, please be my guest.

[Kaboom]

Just basic reason contradicts taking the "AxB" thing literally.

Battle power is raw, immaterial ki energy, which has no inherent numerical value until a measurement device assigns it one. But different devices work on different scales and with different units, and we've seen at least two in Dragon Ball: good ol' scouters and Bobbidi's kiri meter. There's an old vaguely-sourced idea that 1 Kiri equals 50,000 scouter points, which also doesn't make much sense but let's roll with it for demonstration.

If Goku and Vegeta have battle powers of 50,000,000 scouter points each, then that converts down to 1,000 kiri. If we take the 'AxB' or 'GOKU x VEGETA' formula for Potara literally, then how do we decide which scale to use? Why would an ancient fusion artifact of the gods work on the same power-unit scale of Tsufrian technology? Would Vegetto really end up a whole 50,000 times weaker if someone happened to be measuring Goku and Vegeta with a kiri meter instead of a scouter when they put on the Potara?

Seems a lot more sensible to me to take it as a figurative "more like multiplication" meaning. Especially since a handful of other actual in-show quotes have noted Potara fusion making the users "many tens of times more powerful" or whatever instead.

[p-hyvo]

Just basic reason contradicts taking the "AxB" thing literally.

Battle power is raw, immaterial ki energy, which has no inherent numerical value until a measurement device assigns it one. But different devices work on different scales and with different units, and we've seen at least two in Dragon Ball: good ol' scouters and Bobbidi's kiri meter. There's an old vaguely-sourced idea that 1 Kiri equals 50,000 scouter points, which also doesn't make much sense but let's roll with it for demonstration.

If Goku and Vegeta have battle powers of 50,000,000 scouter points each, then that converts down to 1,000 kiri. If we take the 'AxB' or 'GOKU x VEGETA' formula for Potara literally, then how do we decide which scale to use? Why would an ancient fusion artifact of the gods work on the same power-unit scale of Tsufrian technology? Would Vegetto really end up a whole 50,000 times weaker if someone happened to be measuring Goku and Vegeta with a kiri meter instead of a scouter when they put on the Potara?

Seems a lot more sensible to me to take it as a figurative "more like multiplication" meaning. Especially since a handful of other actual in-show quotes have noted Potara fusion making the users "many tens of times more powerful" or whatever instead.

Still, the basic "stronger than boohan" take regardless of how you interprete that quote from the guidebook holds up. Just focus on the result and not cherry pick a detail to look more knowledgeable

[Hugo Boss]

The point is that the guidebook is not telling you to believe battle powers literally multiply themselves, because that would be a very idiotic thing to say. It’s merely for you to understand fusions are greater than the sum of the parts.

[Grimlock]

Battle power is raw, immaterial ki energy, which has no inherent numerical value until a measurement device assigns it one. But different devices work on different scales and with different units, and we've seen at least two in Dragon Ball: good ol' scouters and Bobbidi's kiri meter. There's an old vaguely-sourced idea that 1 Kiri equals 50,000 scouter points, which also doesn't make much sense but let's roll with it for demonstration.

If Goku and Vegeta have battle powers of 50,000,000 scouter points each, then that converts down to 1,000 kiri.

Wait... what!? You think "A x B" doesn't work because of different methods of power level readings?

If we take the 'AxB' or 'GOKU x VEGETA' formula for Potara literally, then how do we decide which scale to use? (...) Would Vegetto really end up a whole 50,000 times weaker if someone happened to be measuring Goku and Vegeta with a kiri meter instead of a scouter when they put on the Potara?

The one you like better/feel more comfortable using it (?). We have Celsius and we have Fahrenheit. Celsius says it's "20 ºC" and Fahrenheit says it's "68 °F". Unless I'm missing something, people should feel the same wherever they are under the same temperature.

If "50,000,000" is the power level Goku and Vegeta have with the scouter and "1,000" is their power level via kiri, then:

• "2,500,000,000,000,000" will be the fused's power level by the scouter.
• "1,000,000" will be the fused's power level by the kiri.

That doesn't mean the fused power level by the kiri is weaker, just like it doesn't mean it's warmer in the Fahrenheit method just because it's showing a higher numerical value. Just like you said, we're "converting" numbers, there will be differences but it's the same thing.

Can you elaborate more? I feel I'm hugely misinterpreting you.

[Kaboom]

Okay, let me lay it out more clearly then.

Goku and Vegeta are 1,000 kiri or 50,000,000 scouter points each. If you use "A x B" literally in scouter points then Vegetto becomes a whopping 50 million times stronger than either of them alone. Because you're supposedly literally multiplying Goku's PL by Vegeta's PL. But if you do it with their kiri readings instead, then now he ends up only a thousand times stronger than them. Because even though you're still literally multiplying Goku's power number by Vegeta's power number, the different scale makes it "only" a 1,000-fold increase instead of a much larger 50 million fold increase.

That obviously doesn't make any sense — logically Vegetto's relative strength compared to Goku or Vegeta should be the same regardless of what device and scale you're using to measure them. If Potara Fusion takes Goku and Vegeta from 50 million each on a scouter to, say, 5 billion as Vegetto, then it should likewise take them from 1,000 kiri to 100,000 kiri. The same 100-fold power boost should be reflected by both scales of measurement.

Or scale it down even more. Let's say Goku and Vegeta have been magically weakened down to power levels of 50,000 each in scouter units, which is only 1 kiri. Doing literal "A x B" in scouter units would result in Vegetto still getting a very large proportional boost over either of them, ending up with a PL in the billions. But do it with kiri, and it's only 1 x 1, which equals 1, so... Vegetto somehow isn't any stronger than Goku or Vegeta? Just because they were being measured on a different scale?

Obviously it shouldn't, and doesn't, work that way. From a physical standpoint, it's because Ki itself is not numbers. Numbers are only made-up and assigned by measuring devices. You can do something like "Ki times 50" when someone goes Super Saiyan, but there's no such thing as multiplying "Ki times Ki."

Think of it as some other form of measurement instead... You can use a ruler to measure a stick, either in inches or centimeters. You can find a bigger stick that's twice as long as the first one, which you might express as "stick times 2."

But you can't multiply one stick by another stick. That's nonsense. The sticks themselves aren't numbers, they're just measured with numbers.

[DBZ Expert]

Stronger than boohan.
Nothing really contradicts the axb multiplier, and he has to be stronger than ssj3 Goku by a good margin at least so ( i know I'll be controversial but i don't care at all) he's stronger than Gohan too since fullpower Goku is too in the first place

What?? Ultimate Gohan >>> SSjin 3 Goku.

[miguelnuva1]

Okay, let me lay it out more clearly then.

Goku and Vegeta are 1,000 kiri or 50,000,000 scouter points each. If you use "A x B" literally in scouter points then Vegetto becomes a whopping 50 million times stronger than either of them alone. Because you're supposedly literally multiplying Goku's PL by Vegeta's PL. But if you do it with their kiri readings instead, then now he ends up only a thousand times stronger than them. Because even though you're still literally multiplying Goku's power number by Vegeta's power number, the different scale makes it "only" a 1,000-fold increase instead of a much larger 50 million fold increase.

That obviously doesn't make any sense — logically Vegetto's relative strength compared to Goku or Vegeta should be the same regardless of what device and scale you're using to measure them. If Potara Fusion takes Goku and Vegeta from 50 million each on a scouter to, say, 5 billion as Vegetto, then it should likewise take them from 1,000 kiri to 100,000 kiri. The same 100-fold power boost should be reflected by both scales of measurement.

Or scale it down even more. Let's say Goku and Vegeta have been magically weakened down to power levels of 50,000 each in scouter units, which is only 1 kiri. Doing literal "A x B" in scouter units would result in Vegetto still getting a very large proportional boost over either of them, ending up with a PL in the billions. But do it with kiri, and it's only 1 x 1, which equals 1, so... Vegetto somehow isn't any stronger than Goku or Vegeta? Just because they were being measured on a different scale?

Obviously it shouldn't, and doesn't, work that way. From a physical standpoint, it's because Ki itself is not numbers. Numbers are only made-up and assigned by measuring devices. You can do something like "Ki times 50" when someone goes Super Saiyan, but there's no such thing as multiplying "Ki times Ki."

Think of it as some other form of measurement instead... You can use a ruler to measure a stick, either in inches or centimeters. You can find a bigger stick that's twice as long as the first one, which you might express as "stick times 2."

But you can't multiply one stick by another stick. That's nonsense. The sticks themselves aren't numbers, they're just measured with numbers.

The entire problem here is there is no kiri to scouter conversion that is correct without us guessing and even if Goku was 1 and Vegeta was 1 that is on one scale.

If AxB worked on 3 different scales but kiri assigned them both as a figure of 1 that just means the kiri figure of 1 covers a larger ground.

Goku, Vegeta and Vegito could all be a 1 on a scale that just means 1 on that scale is a huge distance away from 2 on another scale.

[Kamiccolo9]

[They are still very much below the adult saiyan males. This is even supported when the fusion ran out. Buu reverted to the next most powerful form which was Piccolo.

It's a bit more complicated than that. In the manga, there are two "Buuccolos," the one with Piccolo and the kids that you're referring to, and the one with just Piccolo, which everyone forgets. The differences between the two are pretty stark.



From this, we can see that while both forms get Piccolo's cape, the boys give him a thicker and longer head tentacle, a more defined "human" face, and fingers, plus, he loses Piccolo's gi.

With only Piccolo, Buu still has the Super Buu face, mitten-like hands, and the short head tentacle.

From this, we see that while Piccolo influenced Buu's clothing, he doesn't really change Buu's body much when absorbed. The kids, on the other hand, make pretty radical changes to Buu's actual body, plus their influence gets rid of some of the Piccolo clothes.

Furthermore, we know that the South Kaioshin is stronger than the Dai Kaioshin, and yet Fat Buu still has Dai Kaioshin's clothing and appearance, meaning that it's not always the one with the most power who had the greatest influence on Buu's attire.

You can argue that the boys are weaker than Piccolo, but I don't think using Buu's forms is as strong evidence as you think it is.

[Vegetto95]

It's a bit more complicated than that. In the manga, there are two "Buuccolos," the one with Piccolo and the kids that you're referring to, and the one with just Piccolo, which everyone forgets. The differences between the two are pretty stark.



From this, we can see that while both forms get Piccolo's cape, the boys give him a thicker and longer head tentacle, a more defined "human" face, and fingers, plus, he loses Piccolo's gi.

With only Piccolo, Buu still has the Super Buu face, mitten-like hands, and the short head tentacle.

From this, we see that while Piccolo influenced Buu's clothing, he doesn't really change Buu's body much when absorbed. The kids, on the other hand, make pretty radical changes to Buu's actual body, plus their influence gets rid of some of the Piccolo clothes.

Furthermore, we know that the South Kaioshin is stronger than the Dai Kaioshin, and yet Fat Buu still has Dai Kaioshin's clothing and appearance, meaning that it's not always the one with the most power who had the greatest influence on Buu's attire.

You can argue that the boys are weaker than Piccolo, but I don't think using Buu's forms is as strong evidence as you think it is.

What's funny about that is that Dimps paid WAY more attention to that detail when they made Budōkai 3 than Tōei did with the Z anime. In that scene in the anime after Gohan, Goten, and Trunks are cut out of their cocoons, Boo reverts back to having Piccolo's cape, but is colored the same way as he was previously when Gotenks first defused inside him, with white pants, and a skin pink upper body. However, you can tell from the folds that he's wearing a shirt in that shot, and it's clear that it's supposed to be colored purple for Piccolo's shirt, and that Tōei's colorists didn't pay close enough attention to the manga.

And while there is the fact he has five full fingers as opposed to the short index and thumb with the rest being a nub the manga, that's irrelevant as Tōei made that exact same change to super Boo's initial form, pre-absorption of Gotenks and Piccolo, as well (I would assume for the same anti-Yakuza reference reasons that lead to Namekkians receiving an extra finger, and Cell and Dodoria two, in the anime. No aliens can have less than a full five fingers like humans do because that might make kids want to join an organized crime family and get their pinky fingers cut off, apparently... Oh yeah, and that's also why tattoos are still banned in Japan to this day. Fucking sad.)


However, in Budōkai 3, when you use Boo's ultimate move that absorbs a random character, if he happens to absorb Piccolo (and he does absorb Piccolo alone)... he has not only Piccolo's cape, but his purple shirt AND purple pants, which is, as far as I've seen, (and I've seen just about every single thing that's come out of the franchise, games or otherwise) the ONLY time that form has EVER been represented accurately to its depiction in the manga in any official Dragon Ball media! Well, aside from Infinite World, that is... but that goes without saying considering a HUGE percentage of that game is just identical reused assets from B3, and that includes Boo's absorptions, Piccolo or other wise.


Is it too harsh to blame the fact that everyone forgets this on both the anime's coloring mistake and the fact that a large percentage of Dragon Ball fans have never actually read the manga?

[Hugo Boss]

The entire problem here is there is no kiri to scouter conversion that is correct without us guessing and even if Goku was 1 and Vegeta was 1 that is on one scale.

If AxB worked on 3 different scales but kiri assigned them both as a figure of 1 that just means the kiri figure of 1 covers a larger ground.

Goku, Vegeta and Vegito could all be a 1 on a scale that just means 1 on that scale is a huge distance away from 2 on another scale.

I think that’s the point he is making. The AxB factor couldn’t work, because there isn’t an established scale on where it could be calculated. Even if you say that kiri, for example, is what is being used as reference, it would be situational. Super Saiyan factor of 50 works in any situation, making it plausible until this day.

In another hand, if I had to make a situational guess, I think Yakon’s kiri number (800) is a very good reference for Base Goku x Base Vegeta, so much that Base Vegetto would be about twice as strong as SS3 Goku, coincidentally a figure that can’t beat Super Boo + Ultimate Gohan since they are stronger than SS3 Goku on their own, which makes Super Vegetto a necessity.