Do you think 18 was holding back fighting Mighty Mask?

[super michael]

C18 used a ki blast against Mighty Mask, therefore C18 knew that wasn't a regular human. C18 doesn't use ki blast against regular humans.
I do believe she held back her powers.

Once C18 saw Mighty Mask suppressed ki blast from SSJ1 Trunks, she saw his ki was powerful and fast, therefore C18 wanted to DQ them.

I believe Goten and Trunks are stronger than C18, the only thing is they were at a huge disadvantage for these reasons:

- Unable to see properly, which is a huge disadvantage against a opponent they can sense her ki.
- Unable to move
- Unable to attack, block and dodge
- Unable to dodge properly

Things to consider

- All base saiyans are weaker than Freeza according to battle of gods film.

-Trunks and Goten cannot access the higher grades of SSJ (pre-rosat)

-SSJ Trunks considers himself inferior to SSJ Vegeta, who in turn is still weaker than Majin Vegeta. Trunks was outright defeated from one punch from SSJ vegeta.

-Trunks and Goten are inferior to Piccolo as evident by Buu reverting to Piccolo once the fusion had worn off.

-Piccolo is inferior by a wide margin to Dabura, who is equal to perfect cell.

-SSJ Trunks and goten were effortlessly defeated by majin vgeta (who was severely injured) and not trying.

- Base Saiyan being weaker than Freeza I have no problem.

- I agree they can't use the Grade forms or SSJ2.

- Trunks doesn't know how strong Vegeta used to be against against C18. Vegeta in the Buu Saga is way stronger than Cell Saga Vegeta, who can 1 shot C18. Cell Saga Vegeta is way stronger than Android Saga Vegeta. It is no surprise that Vegeta can 1 hit defeat Trunks.
However that doesn't mean that Trunks is weaker than C18.

- Goten and Trunks were in their base form. They fused while in their base form, therefore they returned to their base form.
We know Base Goten and Trunks are weaker than Freeza, so it is no surprise that they would be weaker than Piccolo.
However SSJ1 Trunks and SSJ1 Goten is more than possible.

- Majin Vegeta is stronger than Goten and Trunks that is no surprise.

I have SSJ1 Goten and SSJ1 around Imperfect Cell level to Android 16.

[Goku9001]

I did address. My point was this.

- Stronger fighters have complimented weaker fighters on their strength even when said fighter is of no concern to them. This was shown several times throughout he series.

-Android 18 was fairly confident she could win. She was holding back her strength because mighty mask was for all intent and purpose a human fighter. Android 18 lives with krillin and knows that there are humans who can be stronger than average. Android 18 ends the fight very quickly when she realizes that mighty mask is goten and trunks.

The first point has already been addressed. Jiren only acknowledged him and yet stated he would win with certainty. The only thing Android 18 did was claim that Mighty Mask was unusually strong after being miffed that he hadn't gone down so easily. There's literally no comparison between the two to be had.

And 18 also stated she would win decisively against trunks and goten even though she initially complimented mighty mask. So your point?

Her avenue to victory was by exposing their identity. It was not power related. Prior, Android 18 isn't shown to be completely confident in winning.

My point would be that Jiren's statement was "You're strong by defeating Toppo, but..." whereas Android 18's statement was "This guy's unusually strong." Jiren's statement serves to undermine Vegeta whereas Android 18 does not revocation. She simply says he's unusually strong or so strong (in the Viz) by clashing with him multiple times.

Also, the Super Saiyan kids are definitely above Piccolo.

[Seekeroftruth]

C18 used a ki blast against Mighty Mask, therefore C18 knew that wasn't a regular human. C18 doesn't use ki blast against regular humans.
I do believe she held back her powers.

Once C18 saw Mighty Mask suppressed ki blast from SSJ1 Trunks, she saw his ki was powerful and fast, therefore C18 wanted to DQ them.

I believe Goten and Trunks are stronger than C18, the only thing is they were at a huge disadvantage for these reasons:

- Unable to see properly, which is a huge disadvantage against a opponent they can sense her ki.
- Unable to move
- Unable to attack, block and dodge
- Unable to dodge properly

Things to consider

- All base saiyans are weaker than Freeza according to battle of gods film.

-Trunks and Goten cannot access the higher grades of SSJ (pre-rosat)

-SSJ Trunks considers himself inferior to SSJ Vegeta, who in turn is still weaker than Majin Vegeta. Trunks was outright defeated from one punch from SSJ vegeta.

-Trunks and Goten are inferior to Piccolo as evident by Buu reverting to Piccolo once the fusion had worn off.

-Piccolo is inferior by a wide margin to Dabura, who is equal to perfect cell.

-SSJ Trunks and goten were effortlessly defeated by majin vgeta (who was severely injured) and not trying.

- Base Saiyan being weaker than Freeza I have no problem.

- I agree they can't use the Grade forms or SSJ2.

- Trunks doesn't know how strong Vegeta used to be against against C18. Vegeta in the Buu Saga is way stronger than Cell Saga Vegeta, who can 1 shot C18. Cell Saga Vegeta is way stronger than Android Saga Vegeta. It is no surprise that Vegeta can 1 hit defeat Trunks.
However that doesn't mean that Trunks is weaker than C18.

- Goten and Trunks were in their base form. They fused while in their base form, therefore they returned to their base form.
We know Base Goten and Trunks are weaker than Freeza, so it is no surprise that they would be weaker than Piccolo.
However SSJ1 Trunks and SSJ1 Goten is more than possible.

- Majin Vegeta is stronger than Goten and Trunks that is no surprise.

I have SSJ1 Goten and SSJ1 around Imperfect Cell level to Android 16.

-Trunks actually does know how strong veget used to be against 18. He tells goten not to underestimate 18 since she use to be stronger than their dads not too long ago.



I think people overestimate the amount of progress these fighters make during 7 year gap. Vegeta did improve during 7 year gap but it was not by leaps and bounds. Their progression was largely slow. This is why buu arc SSJ goku still has the same pl as his Freeza arc self and vegeta, goku and most fighters prior to buu arrival are all roughly cell tier or lower.



-Gotenks was actually in SSJ 3 when they were absorbed by majin buu.

[super michael]

Things to consider

- All base saiyans are weaker than Freeza according to battle of gods film.

-Trunks and Goten cannot access the higher grades of SSJ (pre-rosat)

-SSJ Trunks considers himself inferior to SSJ Vegeta, who in turn is still weaker than Majin Vegeta. Trunks was outright defeated from one punch from SSJ vegeta.

-Trunks and Goten are inferior to Piccolo as evident by Buu reverting to Piccolo once the fusion had worn off.

-Piccolo is inferior by a wide margin to Dabura, who is equal to perfect cell.

-SSJ Trunks and goten were effortlessly defeated by majin vgeta (who was severely injured) and not trying.

- Base Saiyan being weaker than Freeza I have no problem.

- I agree they can't use the Grade forms or SSJ2.

- Trunks doesn't know how strong Vegeta used to be against against C18. Vegeta in the Buu Saga is way stronger than Cell Saga Vegeta, who can 1 shot C18. Cell Saga Vegeta is way stronger than Android Saga Vegeta. It is no surprise that Vegeta can 1 hit defeat Trunks.
However that doesn't mean that Trunks is weaker than C18.

- Goten and Trunks were in their base form. They fused while in their base form, therefore they returned to their base form.
We know Base Goten and Trunks are weaker than Freeza, so it is no surprise that they would be weaker than Piccolo.
However SSJ1 Trunks and SSJ1 Goten is more than possible.

- Majin Vegeta is stronger than Goten and Trunks that is no surprise.

I have SSJ1 Goten and SSJ1 around Imperfect Cell level to Android 16.

-Trunks actually does know how strong veget used to be against 18. He tells goten not to underestimate 18 since she use to be stronger than their dads not too long ago.

<Image Snipped>

I think people overestimate the amount of progress these fighters make during 7 year gap. Vegeta did improve during 7 year gap but it was not by leaps and bounds. Their progression was largely slow. This is why buu arc SSJ goku still has the same pl as his Freeza arc self and vegeta, goku and most fighters prior to buu arrival are all roughly cell tier or lower.

<Image Snipped>


-Gotenks was actually in SSJ 3 when they were absorbed by majin buu.

<Image Snipped>

Goku and Vegeta says that someone as strong as Cell would have been a problem 7 years ago, however now that isn't a problem. Therefore they got stronger.

Future Trunks could kill Freeza like nothing, while C18 defeated Future Trunks like nothing. So there was many power increase.
Kaioshin states that he can kill Freeza 1 shot, but can't kill Dabra/Dabura.

Gotenks got absorbed as a SSJ3, but once their fusion runs out, they revert back to Base Goten and Base Trunks, since that is how they fused into Gotenks. That is what happened when SSJ3 Gotenks battled Super Buu, they didn't revert into SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks.
The only time Gotenks reverts into SSJ1 Goten and SSJ1 Trunks is when they fuse into Gotenks as SSJ1.


Trunks can know how C18 was stronger than Vegeta, but doesn't mean he knows their powers accurately. Originally Vegeta lost against C18 easy, then Vegeta gained enough power to beat Semi Perfect Cell easy, who Semi Perfect Cell has his own powers plus C18 combined along with all the people Cell absorbed.

And 18 also stated she would win decisively against trunks and goten even though she initially complimented mighty mask. So your point?

Her avenue to victory was by exposing their identity. It was not power related. Prior, Android 18 isn't shown to be completely confident in winning.

My point would be that Jiren's statement was "You're strong by defeating Toppo, but..." whereas Android 18's statement was "This guy's unusually strong." Jiren's statement serves to undermine Vegeta whereas Android 18 does not revocation. She simply says he's unusually strong or so strong (in the Viz) by clashing with him multiple times.

Also, the Super Saiyan kids are definitely above Piccolo.

Her avenue of victory was exposing their identity to end the match quickly since they were firing off ki blast recklessly without a care for collateral damage.

Android 18 statement serves to clue the reader into the fact that she is slowly catching on to who she is fighting. She then pieces everything together when they turn SSJ.

Trunks didn't fire ki blast recklessly, he didn't put anyone in danger. That is complete headcanon.
C18 only comments on Trunks speed and power, there is nothing more to it.

There is no indication that Trunks was going to attack recklessly after that 1 suppressed ki attack.

If C18 was stronger than Mighty Mask, then she would be able to counter or tank it, just like how Goku countered against Nappa or when he countered against Vegeta.

[Goku9001]

And 18 also stated she would win decisively against trunks and goten even though she initially complimented mighty mask. So your point?

Her avenue to victory was by exposing their identity. It was not power related. Prior, Android 18 isn't shown to be completely confident in winning.

My point would be that Jiren's statement was "You're strong by defeating Toppo, but..." whereas Android 18's statement was "This guy's unusually strong." Jiren's statement serves to undermine Vegeta whereas Android 18 does not revocation. She simply says he's unusually strong or so strong (in the Viz) by clashing with him multiple times.

Also, the Super Saiyan kids are definitely above Piccolo.

Her avenue of victory was exposing their identity to end the match quickly since they were firing off ki blast recklessly without a care for collateral damage.

Android 18 statement serves to clue the reader into the fact that she is slowly catching on to who she is fighting. She then pieces everything together when they turn SSJ.

I like how you felt the need to go into detail as to why Android 18 felt it was necessary to end the battle immediately as if that is completely relevant to the point.

Android 18 presented no caveats in her assessment of the kids making the Jiren example irrelevant. A more appropriate example would be Super Buu vs. Gotenks where Piccolo promised him that he would get to fight a strong opponent and then claimed Base Gotenks was weak when he was ultimately a pushover. No caveats. Just a straightforward assessment.

We already have Piccolo shitting bricks at Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks powering up at the Lookout so it's clear that the kids surpassed Piccolo.

[ZombieVito]

Yes. All base Saiyans are weaker than Namek Freeza until BoG.

[Seekeroftruth]

- Base Saiyan being weaker than Freeza I have no problem.

- I agree they can't use the Grade forms or SSJ2.

- Trunks doesn't know how strong Vegeta used to be against against C18. Vegeta in the Buu Saga is way stronger than Cell Saga Vegeta, who can 1 shot C18. Cell Saga Vegeta is way stronger than Android Saga Vegeta. It is no surprise that Vegeta can 1 hit defeat Trunks.
However that doesn't mean that Trunks is weaker than C18.

- Goten and Trunks were in their base form. They fused while in their base form, therefore they returned to their base form.
We know Base Goten and Trunks are weaker than Freeza, so it is no surprise that they would be weaker than Piccolo.
However SSJ1 Trunks and SSJ1 Goten is more than possible.

- Majin Vegeta is stronger than Goten and Trunks that is no surprise.

I have SSJ1 Goten and SSJ1 around Imperfect Cell level to Android 16.

-Trunks actually does know how strong veget used to be against 18. He tells goten not to underestimate 18 since she use to be stronger than their dads not too long ago.

<Image Snipped>

I think people overestimate the amount of progress these fighters make during 7 year gap. Vegeta did improve during 7 year gap but it was not by leaps and bounds. Their progression was largely slow. This is why buu arc SSJ goku still has the same pl as his Freeza arc self and vegeta, goku and most fighters prior to buu arrival are all roughly cell tier or lower.

<Image Snipped>


-Gotenks was actually in SSJ 3 when they were absorbed by majin buu.

<Image Snipped>

Goku and Vegeta says that someone as strong as Cell would have been a problem 7 years ago, however now that isn't a problem. Therefore they got stronger.

Future Trunks could kill Freeza like nothing, while C18 defeated Future Trunks like nothing. So there was many power increase.
Kaioshin states that he can kill Freeza 1 shot, but can't kill Dabra/Dabura.

Gotenks got absorbed as a SSJ3, but once their fusion runs out, they revert back to Base Goten and Base Trunks, since that is how they fused into Gotenks. That is what happened when SSJ3 Gotenks battled Super Buu, they didn't revert into SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks.
The only time Gotenks reverts into SSJ1 Goten and SSJ1 Trunks is when they fuse into Gotenks as SSJ1.


Trunks can know how C18 was stronger than Vegeta, but doesn't mean he knows their powers accurately. Originally Vegeta lost against C18 easy, then Vegeta gained enough power to beat Semi Perfect Cell easy, who Semi Perfect Cell has his own powers plus C18 combined along with all the people Cell absorbed.

Her avenue to victory was by exposing their identity. It was not power related. Prior, Android 18 isn't shown to be completely confident in winning.

My point would be that Jiren's statement was "You're strong by defeating Toppo, but..." whereas Android 18's statement was "This guy's unusually strong." Jiren's statement serves to undermine Vegeta whereas Android 18 does not revocation. She simply says he's unusually strong or so strong (in the Viz) by clashing with him multiple times.

Also, the Super Saiyan kids are definitely above Piccolo.

Her avenue of victory was exposing their identity to end the match quickly since they were firing off ki blast recklessly without a care for collateral damage.

Android 18 statement serves to clue the reader into the fact that she is slowly catching on to who she is fighting. She then pieces everything together when they turn SSJ.

Trunks didn't fire ki blast recklessly, he didn't put anyone in danger. That is complete headcanon.
C18 only comments on Trunks speed and power, there is nothing more to it.

There is no indication that Trunks was going to attack recklessly after that 1 suppressed ki attack.

If C18 was stronger than Mighty Mask, then she would be able to counter or tank it, just like how Goku countered against Nappa or when he countered against Vegeta.

-They got stronger but not at a level where cell is a walk in the park for them. Point still stands that people overestimate the progress made during those 7 years. The fighters there are all still cell saga level fighters with the only exception being goku.

-The power difference to kill someone like nothing is not huge to do in this series. Recall, vegeta with a PL of 24k was able to effortlessly kill cui, who has a BP of 18k. The same vegeta with a PL of 24k was also able to kill Dodoria who has a bp of 22k.

-Your interpretation and excuse of trunks not knowing veget'a strength during android arc is head cannon. The author is clearly conveying through the use of said line that trunks knows how powerful both 18 and vegeta were.

-Trunks ki blast was fired half hazardly and It hit the edge of the city. 18 was also present during goten and trunks match and know they did not have full control of their ki attacks.

C18 comments on the strength and speed of the attack as well.

Your last line of reasoning is also faulty. Fighters don't need to tank attacks to show their are superior. Similar to how real world boxers don't always need to take a punch from their opponent. And 18 did counter when she threw her destructo disc at the boys disqualifying them.

The boys at best are slightly stronger than android arc goku and vegeta.

I like how you felt the need to go into detail as to why Android 18 felt it was necessary to end the battle immediately as if that is completely relevant to the point.

Android 18 presented no caveats in her assessment of the kids making the Jiren example irrelevant. A more appropriate example would be Super Buu vs. Gotenks where Piccolo promised him that he would get to fight a strong opponent and then claimed Base Gotenks was weak when he was ultimately a pushover. No caveats. Just a straightforward assessment.

We already have Piccolo shitting bricks at Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks powering up at the Lookout so it's clear that the kids surpassed Piccolo.

It is relevant for the following reasons:

1. We know that mighty mask clothing is a non-factor weight wise since it's normal human clothing. It would have no effect on the boys speed, reflexes and strength and only hinder movements and eye sight.

2. If SSJ Boys>>>> 18, like so many of you guys head cannon then the boys would have been able to effortlessly dodge the destructo disc. See for example, how 120 million frieza vs 150 million son goku still could not hit him with a destructo disc thrown in his direction. Yet, we saw the boys panic (indicating the attack was at a speed they could not dodge smoothly) and they were disqualified.

Android 18 throughout her match with mighty mask has never once presented that mighty mask was a threat to her. She never once mention her being pushed or being fatigued by his attack. She made comment to his body structure being weird and him being unusually strong.

[Goku9001]

Her avenue of victory was exposing their identity to end the match quickly since they were firing off ki blast recklessly without a care for collateral damage.

Android 18 statement serves to clue the reader into the fact that she is slowly catching on to who she is fighting. She then pieces everything together when they turn SSJ.

I like how you felt the need to go into detail as to why Android 18 felt it was necessary to end the battle immediately as if that is completely relevant to the point.

Android 18 presented no caveats in her assessment of the kids making the Jiren example irrelevant. A more appropriate example would be Super Buu vs. Gotenks where Piccolo promised him that he would get to fight a strong opponent and then claimed Base Gotenks was weak when he was ultimately a pushover. No caveats. Just a straightforward assessment.

We already have Piccolo shitting bricks at Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks powering up at the Lookout so it's clear that the kids surpassed Piccolo.

It is relevant for the following reasons:

1. We know that mighty mask clothing is a non-factor weight wise since it's normal human clothing. It would have no effect on the boys speed, reflexes and strength and only hinder movements and eye sight.

2. If SSJ Boys>>>> 18, like so many of you guys head cannon then the boys would have been able to effortlessly dodge the destructo disc. See for example, how 120 million frieza vs 150 million son goku still could not hit him with a destructo disc thrown in his direction. Yet, we saw the boys panic (indicating the attack was at a speed they could not dodge smoothly) and they were disqualified.

Android 18 throughout her match with mighty mask has never once presented that mighty mask was a threat to her. She never once mention her being pushed or being fatigued by his attack. She made comment to his body structure being weird and him being unusually strong.

It's not relevant. Android 18 claimed they were strong before Super Saiyan entered the picture. There were no caveats presented to undermine Mighty Mask's strength. When Piccolo promised Super Buu a strong opponent, it was with the implication that Gotenks could challenge him. This is very straightforward. You seem to agree that Android 18 called him "unusually strong" which means that Android 18 found him to be a strong opponent.

Considering how Trunks and Goten constantly complain about the costume and Trunks constantly has to tell Goten what to do, I would disagree with the notion that the costume was irrelevant. Absolutely no basis for that.

[Seekeroftruth]

I like how you felt the need to go into detail as to why Android 18 felt it was necessary to end the battle immediately as if that is completely relevant to the point.

Android 18 presented no caveats in her assessment of the kids making the Jiren example irrelevant. A more appropriate example would be Super Buu vs. Gotenks where Piccolo promised him that he would get to fight a strong opponent and then claimed Base Gotenks was weak when he was ultimately a pushover. No caveats. Just a straightforward assessment.

We already have Piccolo shitting bricks at Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks powering up at the Lookout so it's clear that the kids surpassed Piccolo.

It is relevant for the following reasons:

1. We know that mighty mask clothing is a non-factor weight wise since it's normal human clothing. It would have no effect on the boys speed, reflexes and strength and only hinder movements and eye sight.

2. If SSJ Boys>>>> 18, like so many of you guys head cannon then the boys would have been able to effortlessly dodge the destructo disc. See for example, how 120 million frieza vs 150 million son goku still could not hit him with a destructo disc thrown in his direction. Yet, we saw the boys panic (indicating the attack was at a speed they could not dodge smoothly) and they were disqualified.

Android 18 throughout her match with mighty mask has never once presented that mighty mask was a threat to her. She never once mention her being pushed or being fatigued by his attack. She made comment to his body structure being weird and him being unusually strong.

It's not relevant. Android 18 claimed they were strong before Super Saiyan entered the picture. There were no caveats presented to undermine Mighty Mask's strength. When Piccolo promised Super Buu a strong opponent, it was with the implication that Gotenks could challenge him. This is very straightforward. You seem to agree that Android 18 called him "unusually strong" which means that Android 18 found him to be a strong opponent.

Considering how Trunks and Goten constantly complain about the costume and Trunks constantly has to tell Goten what to do, I would disagree with the notion that the costume was irrelevant. Absolutely no basis for that.

Android 18 claimed that his body was unusually strong. We have no idea in what she is referencing to. She could mean strong for a human fighter (which is most likely interpretation since mighty mask was human by her account).

There was plenty of caveats, such as Android 18 casually dodging and pressing mighty mask and causing the boys frustration, with them admitting they can't win like this.

If you think base boys are near 18's strength then you would have to overlook BoG film where it was stated that none of the base saiyans ever surpass frieza. In addition, in the buu arc, SSJ goku's bp was measured via kili units and was found to be the same as he had during the frieza saga.

So it makes more sense that android 18 reference to mighty mask just being strong for a human.

Gotenks has no relevance to goten and trunks strength. Gotenks is a fused character, which we've seen are often multiple times more powerful than the sum of it's two parts. So this is irrelevant.

No one is saying that the boys are weak. We are just saying they are not as strong as people make them to to be.

[Seekeroftruth]

I like how you felt the need to go into detail as to why Android 18 felt it was necessary to end the battle immediately as if that is completely relevant to the point.

Android 18 presented no caveats in her assessment of the kids making the Jiren example irrelevant. A more appropriate example would be Super Buu vs. Gotenks where Piccolo promised him that he would get to fight a strong opponent and then claimed Base Gotenks was weak when he was ultimately a pushover. No caveats. Just a straightforward assessment.

We already have Piccolo shitting bricks at Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks powering up at the Lookout so it's clear that the kids surpassed Piccolo.

It is relevant for the following reasons:

1. We know that mighty mask clothing is a non-factor weight wise since it's normal human clothing. It would have no effect on the boys speed, reflexes and strength and only hinder movements and eye sight.

2. If SSJ Boys>>>> 18, like so many of you guys head cannon then the boys would have been able to effortlessly dodge the destructo disc. See for example, how 120 million frieza vs 150 million son goku still could not hit him with a destructo disc thrown in his direction. Yet, we saw the boys panic (indicating the attack was at a speed they could not dodge smoothly) and they were disqualified.

Android 18 throughout her match with mighty mask has never once presented that mighty mask was a threat to her. She never once mention her being pushed or being fatigued by his attack. She made comment to his body structure being weird and him being unusually strong.

It's not relevant. Android 18 claimed they were strong before Super Saiyan entered the picture. There were no caveats presented to undermine Mighty Mask's strength. When Piccolo promised Super Buu a strong opponent, it was with the implication that Gotenks could challenge him. This is very straightforward. You seem to agree that Android 18 called him "unusually strong" which means that Android 18 found him to be a strong opponent.

Considering how Trunks and Goten constantly complain about the costume and Trunks constantly has to tell Goten what to do, I would disagree with the notion that the costume was irrelevant. Absolutely no basis for that.

Android 18 claimed that his body was unusually strong. We have no idea in what she is referencing to. She could mean strong for a human fighter (which is most likely interpretation since mighty mask was human by her account).

There was plenty of caveats, such as Android 18 casually dodging and pressing mighty mask and causing the boys frustration, with them admitting they can't win like this.

If you think base boys are near 18's strength then you would have to overlook BoG film where it was stated that none of the base saiyans ever surpassed frieza. In addition, in the buu arc, SSJ goku's bp was measured via kili units and was found to be the same as he had during the frieza saga.

So it makes more sense that android 18 reference to mighty mask just being strong for a human.

Android 18>> Future trunks> mecha frieza> Frieza namek > ALL BASE SAIYANS in Buu arc.

Gotenks has no relevance to goten and trunks strength. Gotenks is a fused character, which we've seen are often multiple times more powerful than the sum of it's two parts. So this is irrelevant.

No one is saying that the boys are weak. We are just saying they are not as strong as people make them to to be.

[Goku9001]

It is relevant for the following reasons:

1. We know that mighty mask clothing is a non-factor weight wise since it's normal human clothing. It would have no effect on the boys speed, reflexes and strength and only hinder movements and eye sight.

2. If SSJ Boys>>>> 18, like so many of you guys head cannon then the boys would have been able to effortlessly dodge the destructo disc. See for example, how 120 million frieza vs 150 million son goku still could not hit him with a destructo disc thrown in his direction. Yet, we saw the boys panic (indicating the attack was at a speed they could not dodge smoothly) and they were disqualified.

Android 18 throughout her match with mighty mask has never once presented that mighty mask was a threat to her. She never once mention her being pushed or being fatigued by his attack. She made comment to his body structure being weird and him being unusually strong.

It's not relevant. Android 18 claimed they were strong before Super Saiyan entered the picture. There were no caveats presented to undermine Mighty Mask's strength. When Piccolo promised Super Buu a strong opponent, it was with the implication that Gotenks could challenge him. This is very straightforward. You seem to agree that Android 18 called him "unusually strong" which means that Android 18 found him to be a strong opponent.

Considering how Trunks and Goten constantly complain about the costume and Trunks constantly has to tell Goten what to do, I would disagree with the notion that the costume was irrelevant. Absolutely no basis for that.

Android 18 claimed that his body was unusually strong. We have no idea in what she is referencing to. She could mean strong for a human fighter (which is most likely interpretation since mighty mask was human by her account).

There was plenty of caveats, such as Android 18 casually dodging and pressing mighty mask and causing the boys frustration, with them admitting they can't win like this.

If you think base boys are near 18's strength then you would have to overlook BoG film where it was stated that none of the base saiyans ever surpassed frieza. In addition, in the buu arc, SSJ goku's bp was measured via kili units and was found to be the same as he had during the frieza saga.

So it makes more sense that android 18 reference to mighty mask just being strong for a human.

Android 18>> Future trunks> mecha frieza> Frieza namek > ALL BASE SAIYANS in Buu arc.

Gotenks has no relevance to goten and trunks strength. Gotenks is a fused character, which we've seen are often multiple times more powerful than the sum of it's two parts. So this is irrelevant.

No one is saying that the boys are weak. We are just saying they are not as strong as people make them to to be.

Yeah, I don't really care about Battle of Gods. It wasn't on his mind when he created the scene.

[Seekeroftruth]

It's not relevant. Android 18 claimed they were strong before Super Saiyan entered the picture. There were no caveats presented to undermine Mighty Mask's strength. When Piccolo promised Super Buu a strong opponent, it was with the implication that Gotenks could challenge him. This is very straightforward. You seem to agree that Android 18 called him "unusually strong" which means that Android 18 found him to be a strong opponent.

Considering how Trunks and Goten constantly complain about the costume and Trunks constantly has to tell Goten what to do, I would disagree with the notion that the costume was irrelevant. Absolutely no basis for that.

Android 18 claimed that his body was unusually strong. We have no idea in what she is referencing to. She could mean strong for a human fighter (which is most likely interpretation since mighty mask was human by her account).

There was plenty of caveats, such as Android 18 casually dodging and pressing mighty mask and causing the boys frustration, with them admitting they can't win like this.

If you think base boys are near 18's strength then you would have to overlook BoG film where it was stated that none of the base saiyans ever surpassed frieza. In addition, in the buu arc, SSJ goku's bp was measured via kili units and was found to be the same as he had during the frieza saga.

So it makes more sense that android 18 reference to mighty mask just being strong for a human.

Android 18>> Future trunks> mecha frieza> Frieza namek > ALL BASE SAIYANS in Buu arc.

Gotenks has no relevance to goten and trunks strength. Gotenks is a fused character, which we've seen are often multiple times more powerful than the sum of it's two parts. So this is irrelevant.

No one is saying that the boys are weak. We are just saying they are not as strong as people make them to to be.

Yeah, I don't really care about Battle of Gods. It wasn't on his mind when he created the scene.

Battle of gods is one of the movies toriyama did not too long after finishing Z. So we have an idea of his frame of reference of where we place the characters. This is further supported by him giving SSJ Goku (Buu saga) the same battle power he had during frieza saga.

Author's intent/evidence from manga>> Subjective fan cannon.

[Goku9001]

Android 18 claimed that his body was unusually strong. We have no idea in what she is referencing to. She could mean strong for a human fighter (which is most likely interpretation since mighty mask was human by her account).

There was plenty of caveats, such as Android 18 casually dodging and pressing mighty mask and causing the boys frustration, with them admitting they can't win like this.

If you think base boys are near 18's strength then you would have to overlook BoG film where it was stated that none of the base saiyans ever surpassed frieza. In addition, in the buu arc, SSJ goku's bp was measured via kili units and was found to be the same as he had during the frieza saga.

So it makes more sense that android 18 reference to mighty mask just being strong for a human.

Android 18>> Future trunks> mecha frieza> Frieza namek > ALL BASE SAIYANS in Buu arc.

Gotenks has no relevance to goten and trunks strength. Gotenks is a fused character, which we've seen are often multiple times more powerful than the sum of it's two parts. So this is irrelevant.

No one is saying that the boys are weak. We are just saying they are not as strong as people make them to to be.

Yeah, I don't really care about Battle of Gods. It wasn't on his mind when he created the scene.

Battle of gods is one of the movies toriyama did not too long after finishing Z. So we have an idea of his frame of reference of where we place the characters. This is further supported by him giving SSJ Goku (Buu saga) the same battle power he had during frieza saga.

Author's intent/evidence from manga>> Subjective fan cannon.

You're right. Almost 20 years isn't that long of a timeframe.

[Seekeroftruth]

Yeah, I don't really care about Battle of Gods. It wasn't on his mind when he created the scene.

Battle of gods is one of the movies toriyama did not too long after finishing Z. So we have an idea of his frame of reference of where we place the characters. This is further supported by him giving SSJ Goku (Buu saga) the same battle power he had during frieza saga.

Author's intent/evidence from manga>> Subjective fan cannon.

You're right. Almost 20 years isn't that long of a timeframe.

good thing he read through his manga before making the film.

[Goku9001]

Battle of gods is one of the movies toriyama did not too long after finishing Z. So we have an idea of his frame of reference of where we place the characters. This is further supported by him giving SSJ Goku (Buu saga) the same battle power he had during frieza saga.

Author's intent/evidence from manga>> Subjective fan cannon.

You're right. Almost 20 years isn't that long of a timeframe.

good thing he read through his manga before making the film.

Like how he had to be reminded of Ultimate Gohan?

[TobyS]

You're right. Almost 20 years isn't that long of a timeframe.

good thing he read through his manga before making the film.

Like how he had to be reminded of Ultimate Gohan?

I don't think there is evidence of that. He conflated ss2 and 3 , and that's what caused him to reread the manga.

We don't know exactly if toriyama scripted gohan being in ss other than presumably being so on the god ritual. He wrote the bog script but probably didn't choreograph the fights.

[Goku9001]

good thing he read through his manga before making the film.

Like how he had to be reminded of Ultimate Gohan?

I don't think there is evidence of that. He conflated ss2 and 3 , and that's what caused him to reread the manga.

We don't know exactly if toriyama scripted gohan being in ss other than presumably being so on the god ritual. He wrote the bog script but probably didn't choreograph the fights.

We do. It was only until it was brought to his attention by fans that Gohan was reverted back to his "Ultimate" form.

[TobyS]

Like how he had to be reminded of Ultimate Gohan?

I don't think there is evidence of that. He conflated ss2 and 3 , and that's what caused him to reread the manga.

We don't know exactly if toriyama scripted gohan being in ss other than presumably being so on the god ritual. He wrote the bog script but probably didn't choreograph the fights.

We do. It was only until it was brought to his attention by fans that Gohan was reverted back to his "Ultimate" form.

Source? That was people reacting to the BOG trailer. Toriyamas involvement with the film was over at that point. He wrote “everyone attacks and gets owned" in his script most likely and toei had him go SS

[Mireya]

The costume was obviously a very huge drawback as Trunks still thought they were at a disadvantage even after he saw how they could fend off 18 for a while and that her slam didn't cause them any damage. If even after observing that the weight of her power wasn't enough to damage them in their base states, or at least cause heavy damage, he still thinks going SSJ wouldn't give them a leeway in h2h, then obviously the story placed a lot of emphasis on how restrictive the costume was. Just a suppressed blast from Trunks filled her eyes with shock... They're way stronger than her as unhindered SSJs. The lack of coordination was the big factor in terms of them fighting as SSJ.

[Goku9001]

I don't think there is evidence of that. He conflated ss2 and 3 , and that's what caused him to reread the manga.

We don't know exactly if toriyama scripted gohan being in ss other than presumably being so on the god ritual. He wrote the bog script but probably didn't choreograph the fights.

We do. It was only until it was brought to his attention by fans that Gohan was reverted back to his "Ultimate" form.

Source? That was people reacting to the BOG trailer. Toriyamas involvement with the film was over at that point. He wrote “everyone attacks and gets owned" in his script most likely and toei had him go SS

Toriyama still wrote the script, no?