How would you prevent characters from reviving?

[Rafa Fast]

When it comes to DB I can't really think of many things that I personally consider as a bad decision, well, there's one
The characters constantly being revived or escaping death, or even the restoration of entire places or planets

Someone dies? We can use the DBs to revive them
Planet Earth been destroyed? We can use the DBs to restore it
Someone is next to death? Let's give him a hermit bean and everything's fine

Z made it worse by presenting Porunga and making it possible for Shenlong to accomplish 3 wishes.

Super also made things worse by giving Whis (and the Angels in general) powers to do these kind of stuff
The Earth exploded? We can go back in time
Someone's dead? Let's use Whis scepter so we can revive him (there's also Daishinkan doing that stuff with Merus)

We really got to the point that no one can really die if it's not a Android (16 and Gamma 2 died permanently) or a Villain (leave out Freeza)

Super's biggest problem with that subject is that all the Sagas so far take place prior to the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, it wouldn't matter if one of the Z Senshi died in one of these sagas, because we know all of them are going to be alive and fine due to their presence in the End of Z

But now we're getting really close to End of Z in Super, with the next saga maybe taking place after it, that means, no more restrictions for being a Saga that takes place before EoZ.
If Toriyama and Toyotaro had interest, I would like to see how would them avoid the revival and restoration stuff from happening again.

So what would you do to prevent characters from reviving, escaping death and planets be restored?
Is there anything in the series that has been shown or established before that could serve as a reason for the Dragon Balls not being able to resurrect people anymore?
Make a GT Black Star DBs-esque concept?
Make Karin somehow unable to create any more Hermit beans?
Forbid the angels from doing those stuff?
Or create a whole new concept that could serve as the trigger for the defunction of these script solutions?

I'm curious, let me know what you guys think.

[Grimlock]

So what would you do to prevent characters from reviving, escaping death and planets be restored?

Have Dende deactivate or weaken the Dragon Balls.

Is there anything in the series that has been shown or established before that could serve as a reason for the Dragon Balls not being able to resurrect people anymore?

Yep. The aforementioned deactivation and weakening comes from Dragon Ball Online.

[Yuji]

Ultimately Dragon Ball is a fun, light-hearted story and I think most fans would be bummed out at this point if one of the characters they've known for 40 years dies, especially when most of their arcs have already concluded. I don't see much benefit in retrospect that a certain character's permanent death would have added - the deaths we do see are emotional enough, and the revival gives the story its characteristic optimism.

I also disagree with the premise that the dragon balls or other death-negating abilities remove the series of tension. Many other series have fakeout deaths where it seems a character died only to be fine 5 chapters later. Dragon Ball at least does away with this middle man and kills the character off immediately, there's not a lot of fakeout deaths in the series since the Daimao arc. The tension instead comes from whether or not anyone will survive the battle and manage to revive their friends, which I think is adequate enough. There's still tension in Goku's fight against Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Buu and so on even though we know the fallen can be revived, because we know if he loses, everything is done for.

But to the topic's question, I think an easy way would be to just do isolated stories with new characters from other universes where dragon balls don't exist, or they're hard to acquire. Focusing on new environments, or with new, weaker characters, would be a way to achieve this.

[ChronoTwigger]

But to the topic's question, I think an easy way would be to just do isolated stories with new characters from other universes where dragon balls don't exist, or they're hard to acquire. Focusing on new environments, or with new, weaker characters, would be a way to achieve this.

Another universe, different characters, no Dragon Balls to use. Practically... not Dragon Ball XD.

HOW WOULD YOU PREVENT CHARACTERS FROM REVIVING?
DBS shown four methods of permadeath, but not even them are really solid:
Zamasu (supposedly)
Beerus and any other God of Destruction (supposedly)
Zeno (retconned in other media, but so far the only *real* permadeath shown in DB history)
Virtually speaking, Cereal spheres could had permadeath someone by the wrong wish.

Anyway, tension is missing just cause TOEI doesn't want for it. Not 'cause of features and assets *in universe*. It's not Toriyama writing whatever is cool, is TOEI asking please to jot down subjects that fit a schoolkid timeslot. You can't see Vegeta make people implode or have someone really risking his life. You'll see good willed people arguing that Moro did bad things so it's better if he doesn't anymore, that naughty boy. Anyway give him a chance to repent. Even Frieza, having the chance, can do good.

You can remove spheres, senzu, Whis and every revive factor. They'll write happy happy joy joy arcs were such stuff will be not used anyway.

[Grimlock]

Zeno (retconned in other media, but so far the only *real* permadeath shown in DB history)

I assume you're talking about Merged Zamasu? If so, then it's not a "retcon". Every time a villain comes back in Dragon Ball Heroes (and in Xenoverse) is because they were taken out ("saved", if you will) of their timeline before their deaths.

Mira, Towa and Fu don't have the Dragon Balls and they also don't have the ability to ressurect people, so the most likely answer as to how they can summon villains that were supposed to be dead is that they pulled them out right before they are killed. After all, they can travel through time, space and dimension.

[sunsetshimmer]

Shadow Dragons arc prevented anyone from being revived (at least until they beat bad guys) as dragon balls couldn't be used and entire planet was separated from rest of universe, so namekian dragon balls couldn't be used either and not even gods could help them in any way as they couldn't each earth either. It would probably work the same for DBS and Whis wouldn't be able to reach Earth. Maybe super dragon balls could help them as they kinda exist outside of universes but that's a theory.

So while this arc didn't grant a permament death to anyone, they still couldn't fix things mid-arc like they did with a lot of arcs previously.

[ChronoTwigger]

Zeno (retconned in other media, but so far the only *real* permadeath shown in DB history)

I assume you're talking about Merged Zamasu? If so, then it's not a "retcon". Every time a villain comes back in Dragon Ball Heroes (and in Xenoverse) is because they were taken out ("saved", if you will) of their timeline before their deaths.

Mira, Towa and Fu don't have the Dragon Balls and they also don't have the ability to ressurect people, so the most likely answer as to how they can summon villains that were supposed to be dead is that they pulled them out right before they are killed. After all, they can travel through time, space and dimension.

If you mind a bit, Zeno destroyed the ring along the Zamasuverse, so there's no way to move back and forth again in such timeline were Merged Zamasu, well, merge. Past and future will be totally erased, so you don't have any "past" to move to.
If Fu came back in time to retrieve MZ before being erased, nothing after such event will collimate with consequences, one of it is having two Zeno. As the second Zeno is still there, that mean no one traveled back in time to nullify the erasing of that timeline.

I've told of a retcon for this reason: there was *no absolute way* Zamasu could have been bringed back if not by a retcon of time rings. Whis move into a new sixth timeline were Beerus will kick Black ass long way before any merging. So, de facto, no merging will ever happen in no timeline left.

I know that DBSH is not canon, and come with strange stuff the whole time, so I specified "other media", where probably the ring evidence get retconned. Thank you for the chance to add an indepth.

[Grimlock]

If you mind a bit, Zeno destroyed the ring along the Zamasuverse, so there's no way to move back and forth again in such timeline were Merged Zamasu, well, merge. Past and future will be totally erased, so you don't have any "past" to move to.

But if that was the case, Super Shenlong would not be able to bring back the Universes. Zeno's erasure is not absolute, as if someone or something had never existed in the first place. It's more like "death". History still acknowledges that, at some point, they existed. And if that's the case, time travel allows what existed at some point to come back.

You seem to put a lot of stock in Time Rings, but let's remember those are just objects that allow Kaioshins to travel to the future. If Time Rings are destroyed or vanished, then the only thing affected here is the possibility of Kaioshins to continue traveling. But other methods are still available and at the disposal of those who know and have them.

By the way, in case of Merged Zamasu, I don't think whoever saved him did while he turned into sky. I think he was saved right before Trunks struck him with the Genki-Sword. Either that, or let's also remember the timeline where Cell kills Trunks, there's still a Zamasu in there and we don't know what happened to him.

(I just remembered, the Time Ring vanishing is only in the manga, right? The anime doesn't show any ring vanishing, isn't that right?).

I know that DBSH is not canon,

Says who?

[ChronoTwigger]

If you mind a bit, Zeno destroyed the ring along the Zamasuverse, so there's no way to move back and forth again in such timeline were Merged Zamasu, well, merge. Past and future will be totally erased, so you don't have any "past" to move to.

But if that was the case, Super Shenlong would not be able to bring back the Universes. Zeno's erasure is not absolute, as if someone or something had never existed in the first place. It's more like "death". History still acknowledges that, at some point, they existed. And if that's the case, time travel allows what existed at some point to come back.

You seem to put a lot of stock in Time Rings, but let's remember those are just objects that allow Kaioshins to travel to the future. If Time Rings are destroyed or vanished, then the only thing affected here is the possibility of Kaioshins to continue traveling. But other methods are still available and at the disposal of those who know and have them.

By the way, in case of Merged Zamasu, I don't think whoever saved him did while he turned into sky. I think he was saved right before Trunks struck him with the Genki-Sword. Either that, or let's also remember the timeline where Cell kills Trunks, there's still a Zamasu in there and we don't know what happened to him.

(I just remembered, the Time Ring vanishing is only in the manga, right? The anime doesn't show any ring vanishing, isn't that right?).

I know that DBSH is not canon,

Says who?

You are misspelling "timeline" and "universe". The Timeline is another parallel dimension. That's why you have two Zeno. The entire cosmology is doubled.
An "universe", in DB terms, is equal our actual theory of bubble multiverses: "different places in space", parted by an overliminal distance, so informations cannot be shared.
Destroying an Universe is equal destroying a "galaxies amass". You don't erase the timeline of anything. The timeline evidently belonging to the whole cosmology.
You have a proof of it, by being Zamasu a being of another Universe, but moving thru a shared Timeline between those Universes.
That's why they can restore Universes... (restoring NOT a time rewind) but nothing is told about recreating Timelines. Is way possible that, once the timeline is gone, nothing can be done about (Zeno is moved to another timeline and do nothing about his previous one, telling how boring was that void).

The rings are created when someone generate a new timeline. They aren't created by the Kaioshins. And rings disappear when the timeline is erased. I never told the opposite (rings doesn't make timelines, timelines make the rings). That's what Gowasu said in both media.
The ring testify the existance of a timeline. No timeline no ring. So, if that ring cease to exist, is the proof that timeline doesn't exist anymore. I don't need the manga to tell me again the rules and consequences it stated, even more if the other canon source tell me so.

Merged Zamasu happen as a reaction of failed Mafuba. Without Goku around, Black will not fuse. In Dead Trunks timeline, no Merged Zamasu, just Black destroying Earth way sooner and Zero Ningen plan succeeding.

Consider also how Zamasu is erased again in DBH and nothing match with a possible travel in time.

My conclusion is not that Zamasu cannot be bringed back somehow, but when they did *that way*, they had to ignore stated facts, and ignoring stated facts is a retcon.
Zeno is the only character that shown a totally permadeath that cannot be inversed not even by time travel.
Adding a time travel to justify a rebirth, is a serious retcon - a retcon of the entire cosmology so far (that can be tllerad in a non canon product anyway).

Sorry.!!!!! Super Dragon Ball Heroes is not canon. I made a mistake in the lettering. Read it as "SDBH", "DBSH" is used for the movie.
I supposed it was cristalline I was referencing the show we were debating so far. Anyway, my bad.

[Grimlock]

My conclusion is not that Zamasu cannot be bringed back somehow, but when they did *that way*, they had to ignore stated facts, and ignoring stated facts is a retcon.

But what way? I said one way villains are generally brought back (based on other occasions), but that was never stated. It's possible something else was done for him, if you turn out to be right about this.

Like I also said, there's a future timeline where Zamasu is alive (the one where Bulma is still alive) and there's a present timeline where Zamasu (the one who becomes Goku Black) is alive too (the one where the Trunks who is killed by Cell goes to). It's possible that these two are the ones who appeared in Dragon Ball Heroes. Off the top of my head, I don't recall Merged Zamasu acknowledging the events of Future Trunks saga, so there'd be that, but I could be wrong.

Sorry.!!!!! Super Dragon Ball Heroes is not canon.

You're still saying that. That's the mistake.

[Zephyr]

I know that DBSH is not canon

We can't know what is and isn't canon, because nobody has ever said what is and is not canon. We can't just make straightforward inferences. We can't know if Dragon Ball SD is canon or not. We can't know if Dragon Ball Evolution is canon or not. We can't know if Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 2's story mode is canon or not.

[Grimlock]

We can't even know if Dragon Ball is canonical (I mean "canon". Grammar, am I right!?). I don't think church has said something about it.

[ClutchBangstrip]

I don't care about the characters staying dead, anymore. I've come to accept that's not the story the franchise is trying to tell. And that's okay.

[BWri]

Easy, I'd officially add demon ki to the mix. It would retcon that ability that demon aligned fighters like Piccolo Daimou have that allows them to keep the souls of those they kill from the afterlife. That would be an aspect of demon ki, but mastery of demon ki would also prevent the soul from being resurrected.

I think there would still be methods to purify the lost soul so they aren't miserable forever but bringing them back into the physical realm would be impossible.