Why is "new" mainline Dragon Ball so stuck in the past?

[Jord]

Ever since the Yo Goku-special, most of new DB seems stuck in the 90's. Everything is played extremely safe and nostalgia is a huge factor in what projects get approved. Other franchises such as Naruto and One Piece evolved and changed up the characters but DB doesn't seem to want to escape that 90's time void.

The Yo Goku special was clearly just nostalgia. Nothing wrong with that if it occurs sporadically. However, looking at Super:
They recycle classic villains like Freeza, Broly and Cell instead of designing new ones. Gogeta was a blue rehash as well.

Characters seem stuck in their classic looks. Whenever characters seem to get new looks they quickly revert to their old looks, like a kneejerk reaction. Take a look at resurrection F's cool Gohan look for example. Or even Goku and Vegeta's different outfits.

They also don't seem to take any risks with transformations. It's basically hair dye. SSB is just the DBS variant of SSJ. It lost all it's meaning after a while.

Any sense of logic or believability gets thrown out of the window just to have nostalgic fights. Frieze getting an immense power up making him suddenly mega strong. The human characters being able to find in the ToP, while Roshi himself stated in one of the first eps of DBZ that he was too old to fight.

Since it takes places basically at the end of Z, most of the character's journeys are

Part of these problems are due to it being a midquel, but that was also a deliberate choice.

While FighterZ did include a new character, even she was retconned into the past.
Kakarot is basically 90's nostalgia on current consoles.

[Zephyr]

This is always a weird complaint to me. Dragon Ball itself is something that ended in the 90's. Some (myself included) believe that it went on about as long as it realistically could have under its then-current creative process. Some others (myself not included) believe it was already well past its expiration date even when it did finally end. It hit (if not surpassed) its natural end-point nearly 30 years ago. The very thought of trying to bring it back is already an exercise in nostalgia, and a symptom of being "stuck in the past".

The comparisons to Naruto and One Piece don't work. Dragon Ball did continue to evolve and change up the characters, when the original story was still going. One Piece hasn't ended yet, and the 18 month gap between Naruto's ending and the beginning of its sequel is microscopic compared to the gap between Dragon Ball's ending and the beginning of the revival (whether we're talking about the gap between the manga's ending and Battle of Gods, or the gap between GT's ending and the JSAT). Naruto and One Piece haven't been 'dormant' long enough (if at all) to cultivate nostalgia for the works themselves, the way Dragon Ball was and did.

Modern Dragon Ball unarguably has one foot stuck in the past (in part because Dragon Ball is from the past), but it's not like it's doing nothing new either. For every "they brought back Freeza" we get a Beerus and Whis. For every "they brought back Trunks" we get an evil Kaioshin and a god who can delete entire universes. For every "remember when Roshi and Tenshinhan were relevant?" we get a battle royale tournament. For every "transformation that recolors an iconic hair shape" we get super skinny physique, super bulky physique, or obscenely long hair. For every reimagining of Broli and Cell we get character development from someone like Freeza.

[ClutchBangstrip]

I honestly think It's telling a timeless tale. Something no anime/manga is capable of, these days. Dragon Ball is "The Legend". The Forerunner isn't stuck in the past; it's timeless...

The crowds of people in Latin America gathered in public squares to watch Goku and Jiren do battle answers this question. Some might not like that answer, but that's what other franchises are for. Do you want to enjoy a soap opera or do you want to attend an event? You're questions ignore Dragon Ball's purpose. The purpose answers the question.

As much as I love something like The Full Metal Alchemist, there's a reason it's nearly forgotten. Are Naruto and One Piece stories or are they timeless tales? Z ended with Goku flying off into more adventures, not with his dreams finally coming true.

[MasenkoHA]

I agree with Zephyr that the nostalgia pandering criticism is overblown.

If the manga originally ended at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc and Z came out 2 decades later we'd be hearing about how the Cell saga is Red Ribbon nostalgia, and how the Buu saga being kicked off with a Tenkaichi Tournament is nostalgia for the original manga's tournament arcs, and how Gohan and later Goten were trying to recapture the nostalgia of Goku as a kid.

There's definitely a lot of fanservice throwbacks in Super but there's also plenty of new content, both good and bad

[Skar]

We did have Toriyama's reasoning for why he chose for it to be a midquel. I think it's also as a way to revisit the series without changing the status quo of the ending. I remember a comment from VegettoEX that it's more the twilight years of DB while something like Boruto is a direct sequel continuing after Naruto's ending so it's difficult to compare them.

[Hellspawn28]

If it's not broken, don't fix it. Dragon Ball doesn't need to be like other Shonen series like One Piece, Naruto, MHA, etc.

[jjgp1112]

The entire existence of Dragon Ball in 2023 is stuck in the past, welcome to the orgy.

[LoganForkHands73]

In most cases, I would agree that a series being stuck in the past is a bad thing, though with Dragon Ball, I can see the value in how it stays firmly connected to its halcyon years. Both the fans and creators know when it peaked. Dragon Ball has reached that enviable point of pop culture ubiquity (up there with Star Wars, Godzilla, James Bond, Gundam, etc) where it can afford to be somewhat safe and familiar because audiences get pleasure out of knowing the formula. Despite that, the series can still subvert expectations in major ways. For all the nostalgic trappings, we get thrown through a loop in almost every movie and arc.


Goku's godly power-up fails to defeat Beerus, though he convinces the immovable God of Destruction to spare Earth.


Zamasu effectively wins until Zeno steps in to erase him and the entire timeline.


This entire alliance.


Broly being rewritten as a sympathetic character, enough for audiences to root for his survival in the final battle.

Older fans more familiar with Toriyama's writing style may be able to see some of them coming, but to casual fans, there's always something surprising and it's rare for plots to be repeated beat for beat like in some other franchise resurrections. That's what keeps the obvious nostalgia tours from being completely overbearing, for the most part anyway.

[Yuji]

Ultimately for now it's Toriyama's story and Toriyama seems comfortable with the status quo.

However, Dragon Ball at this point will outlive Toriyama. There will be for sure someone else taking the reigns eventually and I don't doubt we'll go beyond the original series in the future - this may already happen with Toriyama at the helm considering how near we are to EoZ.

[WittyUsername]

Much of modern entertainment in general is stuck in the past. Just look at Star Wars and all these other franchises that have received legacy sequels. Even superhero movies have been doing it lately with the multiverse storylines.

[Skar]

However, Dragon Ball at this point will outlive Toriyama. There will be for sure someone else taking the reigns eventually and I don't doubt we'll go beyond the original series in the future - this may already happen with Toriyama at the helm considering how near we are to EoZ.

I'm curious how long that would last since a major selling point is the original author being involved. A lot of legacy sequels have flopped or underperformed in the last few years. I think it shows that milking a franchise has its limits and eventually enough fans decide it's not worth supporting.

This revival has lasted ten years and almost as long as the original series run but less content released. I'm pretty sure that in Japan more series have ended while still being profitable compared to the Hollywood approach of milking a popular franchise until it loses money. It's the saddest way for a series to go since it's usually not a proper ending and just whatever the last release was before being canceled.

[Majin Buu]

Dragon Ball was inspired by stuff from the past (old kung fu films) and started out as a parody of something from the distant past (an ancient Chinese legend).

Looking to the past has been part of Dragon Ball's DNA since its inception.

[GhostEmperorX]

Dragon Ball was inspired by stuff from the past (old kung fu films) and started out as a parody of something from the distant past (an ancient Chinese legend).

Looking to the past has been part of Dragon Ball's DNA since its inception.

Hence this excerpt of a post from the insightful Wuxia thread:

Of course even throughout the Dragon Ball/Z anime's ENTIRE run (up through and including the more gonzo early 90s sci fi stuff) the franchise keeps one foot planted squarely in the past with Shinsuke Kikuchi's heavily, and I do mean HEAVILY classic Shaw Brothers-inspired musical score. This score, apart from just being kickass all unto itself, effectively does a LOT just on its own to ensure that the series' tone stays always firmly rooted in its Wuxia heritage, no matter what weirdo early 90s nonsense Toriyama or the Toei staff decides to throw in there.

[Jord]

However, Dragon Ball at this point will outlive Toriyama. There will be for sure someone else taking the reigns eventually and I don't doubt we'll go beyond the original series in the future - this may already happen with Toriyama at the helm considering how near we are to EoZ.

I'm curious how long that would last since a major selling point is the original author being involved. A lot of legacy sequels have flopped or underperformed in the last few years. I think it shows that milking a franchise has its limits and eventually enough fans decide it's not worth supporting.

This revival has lasted ten years and almost as long as the original series run but less content released. I'm pretty sure that in Japan more series have ended while still being profitable compared to the Hollywood approach of milking a popular franchise until it loses money. It's the saddest way for a series to go since it's usually not a proper ending and just whatever the last release was before being canceled.

You would have to have someone at the helm that is both passionate about the property and at the same time would be willing to take chances in order to let the franchise grow. Quality is quality, regardless if the original author's involved or not. If TOEI would bring out a quality DB product, say a movie, without Toriyama's involvement, the boycott would be minimal. Especially since it's a global brand now.

[MasenkoHA]

You would have to have someone at the helm that is both passionate about the property and at the same time would be willing to take chances in order to let the franchise grow. Quality is quality, regardless if the original author's involved or not. If TOEI would bring out a quality DB product, say a movie, without Toriyama's involvement, the boycott would be minimal. Especially since it's a global brand now.

Toei's pre-Toriyama vision of Battle of Gods was going to have a plot centered around a plague of hate, for the third fucking time in this franchise and reveal the Saiyans were never really evil but infected by the hate plague. I wouldn't trust Toei to do much without Toriyama

[Cure Dragon 255]

You would have to have someone at the helm that is both passionate about the property and at the same time would be willing to take chances in order to let the franchise grow. Quality is quality, regardless if the original author's involved or not. If TOEI would bring out a quality DB product, say a movie, without Toriyama's involvement, the boycott would be minimal. Especially since it's a global brand now.

Toei's pre-Toriyama vision of Battle of Gods was going to have a plot centered around a plague of hate, for the third fucking time in this franchise and reveal the Saiyans were never really evil but infected by the hate plague. I wouldn't trust Toei to do much without Toriyama

I agree that the Toei movie would have been utterly mediocre but I have to say Toriyama IS ALSO a fan of doing things for the umpteenth time.

[MasenkoHA]

You would have to have someone at the helm that is both passionate about the property and at the same time would be willing to take chances in order to let the franchise grow. Quality is quality, regardless if the original author's involved or not. If TOEI would bring out a quality DB product, say a movie, without Toriyama's involvement, the boycott would be minimal. Especially since it's a global brand now.

Toei's pre-Toriyama vision of Battle of Gods was going to have a plot centered around a plague of hate, for the third fucking time in this franchise and reveal the Saiyans were never really evil but infected by the hate plague. I wouldn't trust Toei to do much without Toriyama

I agree that the Toei movie would have been utterly mediocre but I have to say Toriyama IS ALSO a fan of doing things for the umpteenth time.

I dunno, I feel like there's a difference between formula and a very specific plot.


Goku gets taken out of comission, evil villain gets even stronger, and Goku comes back stronger than ever is a formula Toriyama relied on. Hate plague spreads across the earth is a specific plot that Toei did twice and attempted thrice

[Zephyr]

It's not like a post-Toriyama world would see DB in Toei's hands specifically. There's that whole "Dragon Ball Room" thing at Shueisha, which (I'm guessing) is the committee who has been suggesting things like Future Trunks, Broli, etc.

Toei's original Battle of Gods script came about in a pre-Dragon Ball Room world.

[Jord]

You would have to have someone at the helm that is both passionate about the property and at the same time would be willing to take chances in order to let the franchise grow. Quality is quality, regardless if the original author's involved or not. If TOEI would bring out a quality DB product, say a movie, without Toriyama's involvement, the boycott would be minimal. Especially since it's a global brand now.

Toei's pre-Toriyama vision of Battle of Gods was going to have a plot centered around a plague of hate, for the third fucking time in this franchise and reveal the Saiyans were never really evil but infected by the hate plague. I wouldn't trust Toei to do much without Toriyama

If it ends with Goku opening the Matrix of Leadership I'm all for it!

I am curious about this outline though. It may sound cliched but it's all about the execution.

[Yuji]

"Toei" is a vague identity. They've produced bad Dragon Ball, and they've produced some of the best Dragon Ball, like the two TV specials. I don't think Toriyama is necessary for good Dragon Ball to exist.