Dragon Ball and the "It gets good in about 85% of the way!" mentality

[Cure Dragon 255]

A conversation I had with Kunzait inspired this thread. Many fans of certain media expect people to just give their suggest piece of media a test run of about 85% of the media, this gets even worse if its either show with a 52 episode run or even worse with One Piece which has over 1000 episodes and if they drop it any earlier or just give up 65% of the run they will turn snooty and whine about "How you didnt give it a fair chance." This isnt unique to One Piece (Yugioh GX comic anyone?)

I told him I was talking about myself when I said my personal motto is if you dont enjoy something within 3 or 5 episodes you are free to just drop it but he thought I was defending the fandom which I did not mean to do.

But anyway, what I wanted to mention is that Dragon Ball sorta passed through the same ordeal, with Funimation skipping to the Z series and so on.

[Yuji]

I think it's fair to think a good series will captivate you right from the start but we have to remember that most manga work within the context of a serialized narrative where plot beats can be changed around according to week-by-week audience and editor feedback. A series can and often will have a complete change in direction after an arc or two. I think it's fair for fans to prefer the more dramatic and action-oriented tone of the 22nd Budokai onward over the gag-like adventures of previous arcs. The 22nd Budokai is about 100 chapters in, which is 20% into Dragon Ball's run.

With that being said, I agree that if you reach a certain point and you aren't vibing with the series, nobody should get on your case for not investing more time into it. I'm not sure exactly where that point is in terms of chapter count, so I guess it depends on your tolerance.

Luckily both Dragon Ball and One Piece have great starts, and Dragon Ball stays good all the way through - OP unfortunately doesn't.

[GhostEmperorX]

But anyway, what I wanted to mention is that Dragon Ball sorta passed through the same ordeal, with Funimation skipping to the Z series and so on.

Being an amateur Macekre company at the time, it's no surprise that they did this (others in the same lane like Saban, HG, and so on are guilty as well), but let it be known that stuff like this isn't what professional companies do when importing series unless they run into one complication or the other.
(Then again, there's probably very few people here who don't know that.)

As in, this isn't just a matter of dropping a series if you don't like it as an audience member - it's one of a botched, incomplete, and thus subpar presentation of an IP that you possess the license for.

[Majin Buu]

Luckily both Dragon Ball and One Piece have great starts, and Dragon Ball stays good all the way through - OP unfortunately doesn't.

Folks that hate the Buu arc will disagree.

[JulieYBM]

Luckily both Dragon Ball and One Piece have great starts, and Dragon Ball stays good all the way through - OP unfortunately doesn't.

Folks that hate the Buu arc will disagree.

Hell, I think the Namek arc goes to shit after Gokuu arrives on Planet Namek and thge Artificial Humans arc is pretty bad once we hit Piccolo versus #17. Dragon Ball is rarely consistently good, and always inevitably devolves into a boring battle with few if any emotional stakes because Toriyama neither plans nor ever wants to commit to anything weighty.

Also, congratulations on hitting a 1,000 posts after all these days! I'm kind of jealous! lol

[MasenkoHA]

Folks that hate the Buu arc will disagree.

People are entitled to being wrong.


Though I would argue Dragon Ball has its speed bumps rather than being consistently good. Parts of the Red Ribbon arc and Namek arc definitely slog and while the actual meat of the Buu arc is good it sure does take its time making you eat the appetizer before revealing the main course.

[ABED]

While some stories can take time to hit their stride, I'm not waiting too long for it to get good. It's not ridiculous to expect a show to be enjoyable from the start.

[Yuji]

Luckily both Dragon Ball and One Piece have great starts, and Dragon Ball stays good all the way through - OP unfortunately doesn't.

Folks that hate the Buu arc will disagree.

And they'd be wrong. The Boo arc is a top 5 arc in the whole series.

[Adamant]

I think it's fair to think a good series will captivate you right from the start but we have to remember that most manga work within the context of a serialized narrative where plot beats can be changed around according to week-by-week audience and editor feedback. A series can and often will have a complete change in direction after an arc or two.

This is an important point. Another important point is that those that legitimately started following Dragonball way back in the mid 80s starting with episode 1 on TV or chapter 1 in Weekly Shonen Jump knew that this was the new series from the Dr. Slump guy. They weren't going into it expecting action and stakes to begin with.

It can be argued how well Dragonball succeeded in following its Slumpian heritage (according to Torishima, not all THAT well), but if you got into it from day one, you were probably a Dr. Slump fan, and you were probably willing to give it a couple weeks/months to impress you simply because of that. It's not like it was costing you any money, it was running in the magazine you were buying anyway or airing for free on TV in a timeslot you used to watch before it started too.

[GhostEmperorX]

Dragon Ball is rarely consistently good, and always inevitably devolves into a boring battle with few if any emotional stakes because Toriyama neither plans nor ever wants to commit to anything weighty.

In a sense, I think that can be less of an issue than trying to do just that sort of thing in a weekly serial and then falling flat on your face in more areas than one (like a certain post-DB series that took inspiration from it yet tried to be something different altogether).

Another important point is that those that legitimately started following Dragonball way back in the mid 80s starting with episode 1 on TV or chapter 1 in Weekly Shonen Jump knew that this was the new series from the Dr. Slump guy. They weren't going into it expecting action and stakes to begin with.

In general it seems as though the time that one comes to DB (as with most other media really) can have a tangible effect on how they view the series, especially with developments that may or may not have taken place by whatever time. For example I encountered it either at the same time or almost slightly after growing up with later generation Jump series, so that (in addition to the general state of things on the internet concerning the series) would end up skewing the way I viewed it.

[Yuji]

In a sense, I think that can be less of an issue than trying to do just that sort of thing in a weekly serial and then falling flat on your face in more areas than one (like a certain post-DB series that took inspiration from it yet tried to be something different altogether).

You'll have to be more specific. That basically describes all post-DB battle Shounen.

[GhostEmperorX]

You'll have to be more specific. That basically describes all post-DB battle Shounen.

In particular, the series by one Masashi Kishimoto that I knew for a long time more than DBZ.

[Tamagon]

I've heard of the one-fifth rule from MyAnimeList but I've never heard of the 85% rule. That only makes sense for like, a 12 episode anime and nothing more. Even the more conservative one-fifth rule is mainly geared towards shorter anime and not a long-running battle shonen. Most people get into that kind of shonen as kids/teens, not adults. I can't speak for everyone but when I was a kid, I didn't think about things like "how much time should I invest in it before I call it quits?" but rather, I watched DBZ, immediately liked it, and kept going. I think any kind of "rule" for deciding how much time to invest in media is gonna break down when it comes to that kind of shonen, those shows aren't meant for adults who consider these factors.

For me, I'm a bit impulsive with media and tend to go off what my friends say. I'm also more likely to give a manga/comic more chances because my brain can handle reading better than watching something. I still haven't watched most of the DBZ anime, and don't think I will outside of maybe Kai :V

[YoungDefender]

Luckily both Dragon Ball and One Piece have great starts, and Dragon Ball stays good all the way through - OP unfortunately doesn't.

Folks that hate the Buu arc will disagree.

I can understand some people starting to raise eyebrows during the Buu saga but hate? There are people out there that like most of Z but hate the Buu saga? I just don't quite get where the hatred can suddenly come from, it's not like the show/manga went full-on tonal whiplash by going from Saiyan saga to Buu... a lot happened in between to evolve the series in a mostly smooth and natural way.

Yes, the Buu saga started to throw every bit of proverbial gas left in the tank and the kitchen sink for good measure from a writing standpoint and that is fine. It's desirable even because it was intended to be (and in my mind still is) the final big send-off story line for the series and it delivered that in a near masterful way, all things considered.

[Dr. Casey]

The most common perspective amongst the One Piece fandom is that you should wait until Arlong Park and then drop it if you don't enjoy it. That arc begins at episode 30. It's not common for people to suggest waiting any longer than that, even if it happens occasionally (I remember the incident Kunzait's referring to, a few people recommended waiting until Water 7 which starts during the 200s). Though I've never particularly agreed with that common wisdom myself. If you're getting some level of enjoyment out of the story prior to that point, maybe. If you're completely apathetic or even outright hate dragging yourself through it, then it's just not for you. If someone really enjoyed the genre One Piece belongs to and wanted to try it out, I'd probably suggest the third story arc as a litmus test if anything, which begins in episode 9, since that's the story's first attempt at a story arc that features some drama as well as the first that features imposing villains that can be taken seriously.

I think that in the vast majority of cases, you can tell whether a series is for you from very early on. Not necessarily the very first episode, sometimes you just genuinely don't 'get' a series from the very beginning even though you go on to enjoy it, but almost always within the single digits. Usually you'll get at least modest enjoyment from the first episode of any series that you have the potential to really enjoy, but otherwise I think Cure Dragon's 3 to 5 episode rule is a good one; it's rare to go on to enjoy anything that falls completely flat for you within that 3-5 range. Dragon Ball would be a possible exception since the first story arc is essentially a different genre with minimal fighting, but I wouldn't recommend anyone continue who gets zero enjoyment out of the 21st Budokai. It's easy enough to tell whether a story or series has potential from very early on even if it hasn't tapped into it yet. If a story has potential for you, you get a reasonable level of enjoyment from early on, and you can extrapolate from there that it might be something you come to love eventually as more time passes and the story deepens and becomes progressively more exciting and dramatic. If you're completely apathetic to a show's first small handful of episodes or even find them actively repelling, it's probably just not something you'll ever enjoy.

[GhostEmperorX]

I think that in the vast majority of cases, you can tell whether a series is for you from very early on.

It lines up with what I said in the thread that this one is a spin-off from:

It probably shouldn't even be a matter of "when it gets good" in the first place; If it isn't for you, then it isn't, regardless of what the series may or may not become later on.

And then, if it does turn out to be for you, then it's more than likely that you may stick around and see the series through to the end, whether it finishes strong or falls off. Because at that point it's probably too late to quit.

[Soppa Saia People]

I feel like the just general, "Just wait till it gets good" stuff kinda shows how bizzarely a lot of people, especially anime fans, tend to interact with media. Like, with Dragon Ball, even if you only want a serious action story, I wouldn't tell someone that it doesn't get good like that till the Red Ribbon arc, even though yeah that's when the DNA of the later stuff starts to show up. Because I think liking media goes a bit deeper then that, honestly especially manga, because that only stuff still shows a lot that would make Dragon Ball good to someone. The artwork, character writing, sense of humor, paneling, how it handles drama, etc, are all apparent early on in DB, and if you like that stuff, then I think anyone should stick with it, even if they would be more invested in the latter stuff. Same goes for One Piece I imagine, if someone disliked Oda's way of telling stories and stuff, I wouldn't think them sticking with it would be for the best. I've never read OP, and have no interest, so maybe it radically changes, but yeah.

[Yuji]

I think Dragon Ball can be made a special case of because I understand people disliking the pervy and creepy sexual humour in the beginning of the series, which becomes almost entirely absent by the time the 22nd Budokai rolls around.

[Jord]

Luckily both Dragon Ball and One Piece have great starts, and Dragon Ball stays good all the way through - OP unfortunately doesn't.

Folks that hate the Buu arc will disagree.

Hell, I think the Namek arc goes to shit after Gokuu arrives on Planet Namek and thge Artificial Humans arc is pretty bad once we hit Piccolo versus #17. Dragon Ball is rarely consistently good, and always inevitably devolves into a boring battle with few if any emotional stakes because Toriyama neither plans nor ever wants to commit to anything weighty.

Also, congratulations on hitting a 1,000 posts after all these days! I'm kind of jealous! lol

I've heard about people saying it nosedives after Gokuu beats Frieza but never heard about people disliking it from the moment he arrives on Namek.
Why do you feel this way? Do you dislike the Freeza fight? (Which does have emotional stakes)

[Vegard Aune]

I've heard about people saying it nosedives after Gokuu beats Frieza but never heard about people disliking it from the moment he arrives on Namek.
Why do you feel this way? Do you dislike the Freeza fight? (Which does have emotional stakes)

I'm obviously not Julie, but during my most recent re-read of the manga, I found that Namek was really engaging and fun... right up until the moment the Freeza fight started. Why? Because prior to that point it's essentially a game of cat and mouse with like four different cats, with our heroes constantly needing to sneak around to try and stay under the radar of the multiple different people who want to and are more than capable of killing them. It's an extremely unstable situation that's just ever-changing and there is not a boring moment to be found amidst all the double-crossing and twists and turns...
And then the Grand Elder dies, Freeza catches up to our heroes who are all in the same location, and then for the next thirty chapters it's just non-stop "Fight this one guy". There are no other side plots to cut to (though the anime certainly tried...) because basically everyone else on the planet is dead. And for pretty much the entire fight prior to Goku transforming you know full well there's no way Freeza is actually going down any time soon because the Super Saiyan foreshadowing was so thick that you know the arc has to end with said Super Saiyan. Sure, there are still plenty of strong character moments to be found throughout, and near the end you do get Kaio and God's plan to try and get everyone off Namek... But there just isn't enough there to make the fight engaging to me for how long it goes on for. Which I have to wonder if is part of why that fight in particular is so infamous, because, like, nowadays I see people being like "Oh, you thought the Namek arc was long? Luffy's been fighting Kaido for as long as that entire arc!" and far be it from me to claim that One Piece doesn't also have a problem with its climaxes being far, far, far too long... But while Luffy's been fighting Kaido for sixty episodes, there's also been like thirty other plot threads happening at the same time so it's not like it's just been "Luffy VS this one guy", whereas the second half of Namek really is just "Our heroes VS this one guy".