OG Z vs Kai - Subtitled Version

[Tamagon]

I've been thinking of biting the bullet and actually watching the entire Z saga animated. Most discussions I could find on OG Z vs Kai factors in the dub, which is fine, but I was planning to watch subtitled. Is Kai good? Or should I just watch the OG series and be liberal with my use of the fast forward/skip button?

[MasenkoHA]

Japanese Kai is definitely a bit of downgrade from Japanese Z but its still overall better than Funi Kai

Although I wouldn't recommend Kai in any language.

[Tamagon]

Japanese Kai is definitely a bit of downgrade from Japanese Z but its still overall better than Funi Kai

Although I wouldn't recommend Kai in any language.

What exactly is bad about Kai? I remember reading the manga and thinking it was a bit too fast paced (made a thread on it a long while ago). Does Kai basically maintain that problem?

[MasenkoHA]

It claims to be "The Akira Toriyama Cut" but leaves quite a bit of anime only material in, especially in the Buu arc when entire filler episodes are left in. It even opens up with footage from the anime exclusive Bardock tv special as a prologue.

The music is a mess for the first series. Since Kenji Yamamoto's plagariasm caught up with up Toei hastily and lazily replaced his music with Shunsuke Kikuchi's original score. Which would be fine, except it was a very limited selection of his music like the music from movies 6-9 and the Saiyan saga, I believe, and the music was applied without any concern if it fit the scene or not. And while tv rips of the original Japanese broadcast with the Yamamoto score for episode 1-95 are available online if you want to watch the series legally you can only own the first 52 episodes with the Yamamoto score


A bunch of scenes were redrawn and they stick out a sore thumb. They genuinely look like a third graders fanart got mixed in somehow

It's censored. While some changes are understandable like a lot of flashing strobe light effects had to be toned down to comply with Post-Pokemon Shock standards and the nudity had been edited out we also get any instances of characters giving the middle finger being changed to a fist and some of the gorier scenes were toned down like Goku and Raditz bloody chest holes from Piccolo's Makankosoppo being altered into burnt marks and Vegeta coughing up blood when Freeza murders him being edited out. And more infamously the scene of the two spree criminals, who eventually shoot Bee the dog, shooting the elderly couple being omitted, even though it was in the manga

The infamous green tint in Buu Kai



And yes the pacing is a bit off. I also think the Saiyan saga in the manga moved too fast and Toei improved on the material by focusing on Gohan's growth and developing bond with Piccolo. The sudden switch from crybaby Gohan to Goku jr Gohan was jarring in the manga and it was jarring in Kai.

[ATA]

Japanese Kai is definitely a bit of downgrade from Japanese Z but its still overall better than Funi Kai

Although I wouldn't recommend Kai in any language.

I personally love Kai's English dub. If you're watching DBZ in Japanese then I wouldn’t watch the Kai version of that. It's my opinion but I don't think Japanese Kai is good as it seemed more phoned in. Which I can't blame them as for the most part they're repeating lines they already did decades ago. DBS and the last 2 DBZ movies the Japanese Cast started acting acting again. Like Nozawa's voice was voicing in the Goku Black arc. But I'm going on a tangent sorry.


Tamagon I HIGHLY sugguest watching Z over Kai if you're watching in Japanese. You can manually skip the filler that has zero effect on the plot. Or if you want to sit through it you can as well.

I do wonder if there is any scenes in Japanese Kai that was better than the scene in Z.

[YoungDefender]

Without getting into all the issues with Kai from a quality standpoint (many others can expound on this at length and even a previous commenter covers much of it here) the main thing for me is that even conceptually it is an edited down, largely unnecessary alternative to Dragon Ball Z.

The whole "it's the manga but animated" to me just sounds alarm bells as the manga is the manga and the anime is the anime. Wanting one to be the other is missing the point of both in my view.

Only in this fan base have I ever encountered people wanting LESS classic anime and ascribing that as some kind of selling point when talking about Kai. Who goes to a fancy restaurant and complains that the portions were too big?

So I'm going in a different direction and not telling you that Kai is bad because of the music, the pacing, the redrawn scenes, the censors, the green tint and cropping for the Buu saga or even the minority opinion that the English dub is largely overacted, forced and contrived, because I think all of these things are true. My take is that even if all of these things were good or were corrected Kai would still be a heavily edited, abridged version of a more complete work which is the Dragon Ball Z anime which exists separate and distinct from the original source material/manga.

[Adamant]

I do wonder if there is any scenes in Japanese Kai that was better than the scene in Z.

There are a FEW moments, largely because of the music used. The scene where Freeza impales Kuririn in Kai incorporates Freeza's new theme song to great effect, which really gives the scene a much more chilling feel than it had in Z.

But you can count moments like that on your fingers.

[MasenkoHA]

Japanese Kai is definitely a bit of downgrade from Japanese Z but its still overall better than Funi Kai

Although I wouldn't recommend Kai in any language.

I personally love Kai's English dub. If you're watching DBZ in Japanese then I wouldn’t watch the Kai version of that. It's my opinion but I don't think Japanese Kai is good as it seemed more phoned in..

I know this is the common opinion, but I can't ever get behind it. Is the Japanese cast phoning it in Kai? Yes. Is the Funimation cast at the top of their game in Kai? Yes. Is the Japanese cast still, for the most part, acting circles around the Funimation cast? Also yes.

And it doesn't matter how good the Funimation dub it is, it's still Kai with all of Kai's problems. But if someone insist on watching Kai anyways, I see no reason to watch the dub over the sub aside from a preference for dubs over subs. Which is fine.

[Hellspawn28]

English Funimation dub of Kai still uses most of their old cast and most of them don't fit the characters at all.

[Vegetto95]

There are a FEW moments, largely because of the music used. The scene where Freeza impales Kuririn in Kai incorporates Freeza's new theme song to great effect, which really gives the scene a much more chilling feel than it had in Z.

Tada Kogoeru Elegy? Dude, that song is amazing. I first heard it probably over ten years ago, but it wasn't until three or four years ago that I first started listening to Seikima-II, one of the best metal bands to ever come out of Japan (I've since listened to all their albums, most at least a few times each )... and finding out that their vocalist, Demon Kakka, sang it knocked me on my ass. Made the song just that much more awesome to me lol

It just sucks that that episode ends RIGHT before his kickass vocals actually start once the chanting part is over at the beginning of the song...

[coola]

One of selling points for JPN Kai was sound quality, but now that "broadcast audio" was recovered...

[Vegetto95]

One of selling points for JPN Kai was sound quality, but now that "broadcast audio" was recovered...

Absolutely. As someone who's watched the entire original run of the series (DB, Z, GT, and all movies & specials) both with Tōei's ridiculously muffled official (secondary/backup) audio masters and with the recovered broadcast audio, and done many, many direct comparisons between the two, I gotta tell ya... the difference is fucking NIGHT AND DAY.

Looking at what AB is doing in France with their new Dragon Ball Blu-rays that feature the amazing Japanese broadcast audio along with the BEAUTIFULLY PRISTINE color correction that's accurate to the original intended scale and the crisp line art sharpening (overall it looks even better than the FUNi Level Blu-rays from 12 years ago) gives me hope that maybe one day we might get a full release of the series with GREAT video AND great audio that's as close to a valid reproduction of how it originally looked/was meant to look when it aired as possible.

I know it's pretty unlikely, at least for me, because, being an American fan, any release of it here would obviously have to come from FUNimation, and they... doooooon't exactly have the greatest reputation for physically releasing DB/Z/GT in ways that are actually, well... anything close to being acceptable. Buuuut, they've also done just fine with other series using HD masters that others had already made.

I own many of FUNi's Blu-ray releases of series and movies, not just of DB stuff like Dragon Ball Kai and Battle of Gods (and I used to own Resurrection 'F' that I got as a birthday gift back in 2015, but I got rid of it because, well... that movie sucks lol), but other things like Cowboy Bebop, Burst Angel, Outlaw Star, Summer Wars, Assassination Classroom, Your Name, Last Exile: Fam, the Silver Wing, and MANY others, and they ALL look and sound absolutely buttfucking amazing. (And also in regards to FUNi Dragon Ball Blu-ray releases, while I don't actually own any of the Super Blu-rays, as, like with RoF, I... reeeeally don't like Super much at all, I know that they're perfectly fine in terms of video and audio and had no interference or changes made by FUNi. So it IS possible!)

So maaaaaybeeeee one day once AB is a little farther along in releasing their DB BDs, maaaaaaybeeee FUNimation could just, you know... use the same video and Japanese audio codecs, change absolutely nothing (except obviously adding in their shitty dub audio tracks that I won't ever care about or listen to lmao), slap them on Region A discs, and call it a day? They would make a LOT of DB fans, ESPECIALLY the ones who congregate on here, VEEEEERY happy.

One can only hope and dream, I suppose. It would definitely be an amazing awakening from an over 15-year long nightmare of terrible home video releases of 80s/90s DB by FUNi if they did. Again, I doubt it will ever actually happen because of the horrible way they treat the original era of Dragon Ball... but as someone who really likes physically owning the shows and movies he likes in the best quality possible, I would love for it to happen. Again... I can dream lol

[GhostEmperorX]

Looking at what AB is doing in France...

Funny thing is that this is even more than what Toei themselves have done or would do. Imagine that.
Seems like they themselves deserved the masters for Z far more than FUNimation ever did. At least they learned from their own mistakes (regarding the French and BG dubs).

other things like Cowboy Bebop, Burst Angel, Outlaw Star, Summer Wars, Assassination Classroom, Your Name, Last Exile: Fam, the Silver Wing, and MANY others

And as you mentioned, others made those masters. They've also all got far less baggage than DB/Z has attached to it.
As a plus, none of the studios are Toei.

[Vegetto95]

other things like Cowboy Bebop, Burst Angel, Outlaw Star, Summer Wars, Assassination Classroom, Your Name, Last Exile: Fam, the Silver Wing, and MANY others

And as you mentioned, others made those masters. They've also all got far less baggage than DB/Z has attached to it.
As a plus, none of the studios are Toei.

That's why I said it's POSSIBLE that FUNimation might one day put out an American release using AB's remastered footage and audio since they do have a history doing so with series/movies that have already been remastered in HD by other companies, be it in Japan or otherwise. But again, it's also why I said it's still pretty unlikely due to FUNi's godawful history specifically with their DB/Z/GT home releases since '07.

So we're basically just fully agreeing with each other here lol

I will say this, however... there ARE several examples, very recent in fact, of other companies putting out Tōei-owned series on Blu-ray in America. Just within the past few months, Discotek FINALLY put out the entire Japanese first season of Digimon Adventure (something I've been waiting for for YEARS and am super happy about. They also separately released the first season on Blu-ray dubbed, but I have no interest in that pile of garbage lol), and Viz is also in the middle of rereleasing the original Sailor Moon seasons; they just put out Sailor Moon S less than two months ago (they first released all five seasons in two Blu-ray volumes each like 5-6 years ago, but they looked dreadful. These new releases feature newly remastered transfers that look MUCH better).

Again, obviously, neither of those are licensed in the US by FUNimation, but they ARE owned by Tōei just as Dragon Ball is, and the American Blu-ray releases look pretty damn fine (because Tōei are a bunch of fucking cheapskates, they are upscales originally done by Tōei and not TRUE HD remasters like AB's DB Blu-rays, so they could look a lot better, but they're perfectly serviceable and could look a much, MUCH worse). So there is hope for Dragon Ball. Not much... but it is there.

[GhostEmperorX]

I will say this, however... there ARE several examples, very recent in fact, of other companies putting out Tōei-owned series on Blu-ray in America. Just within the past few months, Discotek FINALLY put out the entire Japanese first season of Digimon Adventure (something I've been waiting for for YEARS and am super happy about. They also separately released the first season on Blu-ray dubbed, but I have no interest in that pile of garbage lol), and Viz is also in the middle of rereleasing the original Sailor Moon seasons; they just put out Sailor Moon S less than two months ago (they first released all five seasons in two Blu-ray volumes each like 5-6 years ago, but they looked dreadful. These new releases feature newly remastered transfers that look MUCH better).

And as everyone knows by now the two bolded series, when initially being imported to the US, also happened to have replacement scores, even though both the original ones were done by the late Takanori Arisawa and had none of the "issues" people would normally bring up with DB/Z's (which is another argument against that whole concept in general). Literally no reason other than potential royalties to "justify" a replacement.

But enough about that for now, Discotek's efforts are commendable for sure. Just don't know why they (as well as the likes of RetroCrush) care so much about initial adaptation-tier dubs like that when they have access to the original material and have a chance to do far better with presentation.
Viz I think at least did a re-dub of the Sailor Moon series.

Again, obviously, neither of those are licensed in the US by FUNimation, but they ARE owned by Tōei just as Dragon Ball is, and the American Blu-ray releases look pretty damn fine (because Tōei are a bunch of fucking cheapskates, they are upscales originally done by Tōei and not TRUE HD remasters like AB's DB Blu-rays, so they could look a lot better, but they're perfectly serviceable and could look a much, MUCH worse). So there is hope for Dragon Ball. Not much... but it is there.

The vexing thing is that if Toei wasn't willing to do any justice to the presentation of what was for a long time their all-star series, then they clearly wouldn't have done it for just about any other older IP in their studio. So I usually wonder if this is the same situation for not only SM or Digimon, but also the likes of Saint Seiya, FoTNS, Kinnikuman, etc.
In general the non-Toei classic anime series of the same era (City Hunter, Urusei Yatsura, etc) tend to have it better on the presentation front (and if not a remaster, then at least the audio), at least from what I've seen.

[MasenkoHA]

And as everyone knows by now the two bolded series, when initially being imported to the US, also happened to have replacement scores, even though both the original ones were done by the late Takanori Arisawa and had none of the "issues" people would normally bring up with DB/Z's (which is another argument against that whole concept in general). Literally no reason other than potential royalties to "justify" a replacement.

Eh, that's not entirely true. One of the big complaints dub fans had about Sailor Moon's Japanese score when Cloverway kept it for the S and SuperS dub was the music was "cheesy and dated" pretty much the same complaints DBZ fans had with Shunsuke Kikuchi's score for Dragon Ball Z when it became the default option for the dub's remaster.
Much like how Kikuchi was invoking 70s kung fu movies, Arisawa was invoking the old Charlie's Angels tv series with his Sailor Moon score.

Digimon, afaik, never had this problem. But that's probably because the dub never backtracked on using a replacement score. Though it would be interesting seeing what complaints dub fans would of had about the Japanese score if Toei USA or Discotek had decided to reinsert it into the old Saban dub since that music was much more modern sounding than Kikuchi's Dragon Ball score or Arisawa's Sailor Moon score.

Of course the "Japanese music sucks lol" complaints from Sailor Moon dub fans pretty much died out, possibly because the old dub has long been out of print and Viz kept the Japanese score for its redub which has been "the dub" since 2014.

But enough about that for now, Discotek's efforts are commendable for sure. Just don't know why they (as well as the likes of RetroCrush) care so much about initial adaptation-tier dubs like that when they have access to the original material and have a chance to do far better with presentation.
Viz I think at least did a re-dub of the Sailor Moon series.

There was a much more greater outcry for Sailor Moon's dub to be fixed than either Dragon Ball or Digimon. The first two series has a total of six missing episodes and the first season had its final two episodes merged into one. Plus the whole turning gay men into women and lesbians into cousins thing. Viz probably thought it worth the effort especially since the final season was undubbed anyways. I remember way back in like 2010ish when Funimation was expressing interest in the Sailor Moon license and most fans assumed they were going to get it, it was pretty much expected they would be doing a redub from the ground up. I think a redub was demanded by Kodansha or Naoko Takeuchi anyways, if I'm not mistaken nearly every country received a redub.

The vexing thing is that if Toei wasn't willing to do any justice to the presentation of what was for a long time their all-star series, then they clearly wouldn't have done it for just about any other older IP in their studio. So I usually wonder if this is the same situation for not only SM or Digimon, but also the likes of Saint Seiya, FoTNS, Kinnikuman, etc.
In general the non-Toei classic anime series of the same era (City Hunter, Urusei Yatsura, etc) tend to have it better on the presentation front (and if not a remaster, then at least the audio), at least from what I've seen.

Worth pointing out ADV's release of Japanese Sailor Moon back in 2003 also had a shitty mono quality because that's how ADV received the masters

[GhostEmperorX]

Wasn't sure about that as I never did see the show (SM) for any considerable length of time, but from the few clips I saw the OST never gave that feeling in the same way as DBZ's did. Definitely wasn't aware of what it may have been channeling either.
Although it still doesn't mean much in the end considering even Saint Seiya got such a replacement to its music in its horribly disfigured adaptation, and that OST is a masterpiece by any standard that no one can seriously argue would need to be tampered with, even by coincidence (I recently saw in a soundtrack CD booklet for one of Kikuchi's late 90's projects that he says he has trouble doing modern [今風] material since he can only make music in his own style, if anyone's interested I can provide the source).

It occurred to me in general that Kunzait's point about these changes only being made because they were marketing the shows to children rings true pretty much all the time. Even for material in the late 2000's and 2010's that still got considerably changed adaptations out the gate rather than after the fact, some of which I saw in my own childhood. They seemed to use that particular change real often.

Interesting to hear what happens when the original creators/license holders are really invested in their work. It was the same with CLAMP too regarding "Cardcaptors". A far cry from Toriyama and Toei basically leaving fans to pick up the slack with proper representations of DB/Z.
True, Toei is by this point notorious for always giving bottom of the barrel quality material for home video releases.

[OmegaRockman]

It really depends on what you want. If you want top-notch acting and music placement, go with Z. Go with Kai if Z's pacing is too slow for you and you're okay with having just pretty good acting and music placement that occasionally gets weird (IMO detractors overblow how bad the Kikuchi replacement score/Sumitomo TFC gets).

Personally, I'm a Kai guy these days. I tried rewatching the first 30 episodes some years ago when the community rewatch started, and I had to tap out because OG Z is so slow for me. Kai, on the other hand, feels just about right. Maybe you'll be more accepting of Z's pacing though, so you'll probably be best off watching the first few episodes of both and making a choice based on what you vibe with the most.

[MasenkoHA]

Replacement scores in anime dubs always seemed to exist for two reasons


1. Profiting off royalties from their own original score- Something Gen Fukanaga freely admitted to being Funimation's motive behind replacing Dragon Ball Z's score.

2. This idea that kids need wall to wall music. I have no idea where this one comes from but Funimation isn't the only company that thought that either

"Music American Kids will respond to better" also gets thrown around by these companies but I didn't know any kid bothered by the all the Japanese music 4Kids kept for their Pokemon dub (or could even distinguish it from the Mickey Mouse American music they came up with to blend with it) or bothered by Shunsuke Kikuchi's score for the original Dragon Ball. The only time an anime's original score ever gets criticized is when its dub fans are used to a replacement score.

[GhostEmperorX]

And these days, when people criticize original scores, they just leave it at said score not being their cup of tea, either due to the composer, their preferences, what kind of music the score is, and all that, they're not calling for "dub replacements" or whatever else if they don't exist (which is the vast majority of anime series). Pretty much the same way a series itself might be reviewed. Generally they'd move on to something else that is in fact to their preference.
And it's quite the interesting double standard with even modern DB media, which is completely a carry-over from those "localization" dark ages. You just don't see it anywhere else.