unpopular opinion: kenji yammoto should have never got fired

[SelfTrainedNamekian]

i heard all the samples of the so called "stealing" yes there is slight resembles. but not enough to consider it stealing. not at all. yammamoto is a very talented composer and his music was amazing. both in kai and the video games also. i dont get why toei fired him. maybe toei were afraid of a lawsuit? anyway. yes i've heard all the samples. some inspiration from those songs maybe but you telling me nobody in the music indostry doing that? a lot of musicians doing the same thing. it wasent "plagarized" (dont know what that word means) his themes were different enough to considerd original in my opinion.

thats a damm shame they fired him. his kai themes were amazing. i dont like watching kai with dbz ost. dont get me wrong. i love kikuchi. but this is kai. not z.

also. sorry for my english. i am not a native english speaker and i type fast

[GhostEmperorX]

yammamoto is a very talented composer

and his music was amazing

All of his credits are arranger credits.

No, seriously, where there's smoke, there's fire, and 20 years right from the original Z series is a long time to be getting away with that sort of activity.
His position was high enough to the point where, out of everyone else doing DB game soundtracks, his were the only ones to get regular, standalone commercial soundtrack releases (this came to a halt upon his axing and everything else since then has been either an enclosure or limited edition-type of release, or just not released altogether).
He also got the best treatment when it came to budgets.

But all of that was built upon 20 years of indisputable plagiarism, so the fact that he fell from that position and his works were erased from the whole franchise wherever possible couldn't be a more fitting consequence.

[Vegetto95]

i heard all the samples of the so called "stealing" yes there is slight resembles. but not enough to consider it stealing. not at all. yammamoto is a very talented composer and his music was amazing. both in kai and the video games also. i dont get why toei fired him. maybe toei were afraid of a lawsuit? anyway. yes i've heard all the samples. some inspiration from those songs maybe but you telling me nobody in the music indostry doing that? a lot of musicians doing the same thing. it wasent "plagarized" (dont know what that word means) his themes were different enough to considerd original in my opinion.

So first of all... plagiarism is when you copy something copyrighted, like a book, movie, song, etc., whether in whole or in part, and claim it as your own original work rather than give credit to the original work you copied and, in cases like this, pay for royalties to copy someone else's creation. Which is EXACTLY what Yamamoto Kenji did for two whole decades. And probably the ONLY reason he got away with it with for as ridiculously long as he actually did was because, for the majority of that time, he stole mostly from lesser known foreign bands (mostly European). But as soon as he started copying music from MAJOR American films like Avatar and Terminator... his goose was cooked. That kind of thing does NOT go unnoticed for long.

And like, I get that different people interpret things with their ears different ways, but seriously? You're really gonna sit there and tell me that you can't hear things like how Battle Point Unlimited sounds nearly IDENTICAL to "The Murder of Love" by Propaganda? Or how extremely similar that one Kai track (I forget what it was named, if it was at all.. many Kai tracks were never released and therefore never named) sounds to the track "War" by James Horner on Avatar's soundtrack? Or how incredibly close "Chōsenshitachi"/"Challengers" from Dragon Ball Z: Budōkai sounds to (the amazing) "Hunting High and Low" by (the amazing) Stratovarius? Along with all the other examples you said you listened to??

And even if that is 100% the case... even if you really, truly can't hear how immorally close Yamamoto's "songs" are to the songs he stole from... I can tell you for a fact that thousands of other people can. Because even in my own limited experience alone, everyone else I've heard from on the matter (easily dozens of people, possibly hundreds), even the ones who still like his music despite the plagiarism, still readily admit that he very clearly copied from other songs. It's just not something that's up for debate, especially now well over a decade after his firing... he 100% broke the fucking law.

So you saying that it's "your opinion" that he shouldn't have gotten fired for stealing other people's work is like saying someone shouldn't get fired from their job at the grocery store because they were caught shoplifting, a.k.a. committing a crime. When put like that, can you see how asinine it is to say that he shouldn't have gotten fired? I'm not saying you can't like the tracks he "made", I like a lot of them too. But I am saying that Tōei was absolutely, 100% totally justified in getting rid of him. People who are caught BLATANTLY committing crimes at their workplace should absolutely be fired from said workplace. That's not an opinion... that's the goddamn, motherfucking LAW lol

And the fact that you don't get why Tōei fired him proves you don't know how copyright laws work, specifically in music industry. There are DOZENS of tracks that Yamamoto "made" that he CLEARLY copied from multiple sources, and he claimed ALL of them as his own work. Those tracks are MORE than close enough that they would legally be subject to paying royalties for use of the original music, which not only did he not do, but he didn't even credit "his" tracks as being based on the songs he copied in any way. And that's 100% fucking illegal. THAT is why Tōei fired his talentless, soulless ass.

There is a HUUUUGE difference between doing that, and stuff like artists covering other artists or making similar tunes but giving due credit , which indeed is something that does happen very frequently in the music industry and is PERFECTLY legal. That's probably the kind of thing you were referring to, but do NOT get it twisted... that is NOT the same thing as what Yamamoto did whatsoever, not by a long shot. Other musicians who do what he did very often get justifiably sued and punished because, again... that's illegal.

[GhostEmperorX]

And probably the ONLY reason he actually got away with it with as ridiculously long as he actually did was because, for the majority of that time, he stole mostly from lesser known foreign bands (mostly European)... but as soon as he started copying music from MAJOR American films like Avatar and Terminator... his goose was cooked. That kind of thing does NOT go unnoticed.

On a separate occasion from DBZ, in 1992, he put Jerry Goldsmith's theme for "Total Recall" in the Zyuranger OP, all throughout the background instrumental rather than just the first portion that wasn't ever heard on TV, and he was only the arranger for that song instead of the composer (Gouji Tsuno).

And like, I get that people interpret things with their ears different ways, but seriously? You're really gonna sit there and tell me that you can't hear things like how Battle Point Unlimited sounds nearly IDENTICAL to "Propaganda" by Murder of Love?

Just want to mention, you have the two switched :p

But besides Murder of Love, there were like 2-4 other songs from Propaganda's A Secret Wish album that he incorporated into that track (like "P:Machinery" and "The Chase"), while bringing them all into the most commonly heard key in DBZ's BGM (F minor) and cutting off a beat to make it all 7/8 instead of 4/4 (common time). I even hear from someone that he basically plagiarized bits and pieces from every song in that album rather than just those ones too.

[TheGreatness25]

Truthfully, it's not like he was really hiding the fact that he was "inspired" (for lack of a better word) by existing music. He took "inspiration" from very mainstream, well-known music.

I guess the only real thing I can compare this to is wrestling. There have been countless instances of wrestlers leaving one company to go to another and having that new company recreate the wrestler's entrance music. This has also been done in wrestling video games. Quite frankly, I don't see the difference between my example and what Kenji Yamamoto did. Does this bring his creativity into question? Of course. But this whole thing kind of torpedoed his career and that might have been overkill. His music being replaced in Kai and the PS2 video games was a bit too far, in my opinion. Was the that of a lawsuit hanging over Toei? Sure. But is that that not still there? It still happened, whether they replaced the music or not. Well, at this point, its unlikely that there would be a lawsuit.

Anyway, I liked Yamamoto's work, particularly on the older video games (before the PS2 era). And his work on Kai was pretty good. While we're on the subject, does anyone know if Brave Warriors Challenging the Mighty (from Kai) was lifted off of an existing song?

[GhostEmperorX]

While we're on the subject, does anyone know if Brave Warriors Challenging the Mighty (from Kai) was lifted off of an existing song?

The General Yamamoto Rip-off Thread might be of use, give or take a few broken links here & there :p

Truthfully, it's not like he was really hiding the fact that he was "inspired" (for lack of a better word) by existing music. He took "inspiration" from very mainstream, well-known music.

Not only that but even anime soundtracks and even other such works from media composers in his own country.

His music being replaced in Kai and the PS2 video games was a bit too far, in my opinion. Was the that of a lawsuit hanging over Toei? Sure. But is that that not still there? It still happened, whether they replaced the music or not. Well, at this point, its unlikely that there would be a lawsuit.

It's most likely that they caught on to his 20 year track record and decided to erase everything he's ever done from the franchise altogether.
Of course, those were the only things in the game realm to get CD releases, so who knows what's been done on that front?

[ThunderPX]

Related unpopular take: Yamamoto improved a lot of the stuff he swiped, especially that Avatar track that supposedly got him caught. It's really made me reconsider how much copyright law as it exists even makes any sense. Hell knows the human race got along fine without it for a long, long time.

[JulieYBM]

Copyright law, as is the way with most if not all laws, exists to protect the wealthiest above all else. Yamamoto Kenji's crime wasn't harming the average Jane, it was 'harming' those with more money than him, and for that he was judged and excommunicated.

[GhostEmperorX]

Can't really ignore how some of those he copied were also people working in the same soundtrack field he was in (video games and even anime), not to mention how he got to be the only person working on DB game soundtrack projects (till date) to have them released on CD with all the usual bells & whistles.
So it's not exactly like he had specific targets for his arrangements.
He made quite a name for himself, even getting to work with some of those famous artists for a few sessions (Toto and Tower of Power). His friend (Hideki Matsutake) was even one of YMO's assistants.

Fact is, he flew too close to the sun.

[coola]

Different times, before 2010's copyright system seemed to be way less tight overall, it was around 2009 when Youtube first purge, that hit reviewers who used clips from movies/games started. And in 1980's/1990's so many creators "borrowed" music, characters etc. even from popular movies. I recently watched Project A-Ko from 1986, and in audio commentary director said, he would never be allowed to make such movie today.

[GhostEmperorX]

Well, well, what do you know, it looks like he's been completely unpersoned on an official level.

――It's not American rock, that's for sure.

Kageyama: No, it isn't. The bass riff has a swing to it, and the song has a distinct '80s pop vibe. As opposed to screeching guitar chords, there are high-pitched tones coming through from the keyboard. It's totally different from the mainstream rock aesthetic of the time, and there just weren't any composers out there putting together that type of arrangement. So it was the overall sound, as well as the lyrics, that were all-new and original. Since I'd been singing rock up until that point, to me, it was a complete revelation.

The producer in charge of the song's final arrangement was a huge lover of club music, and they were doing something like what's now called "step recording" since way back then.

――Returning to our original conversation, it sounds like "CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA" really was born out of Yukinojo Mori's unique talent and the tendency of the song's producer to always be on the lookout for the newest trends in music. Can you tell us about your experience of recording the song?

――All that singing was surely tough, but making that many songs can't have been easy either! Can you tell us a bit about all the staff who were involved in creating the music for "Dragon Ball Z"?

Kageyama: Back then, the music producer at Columbia was Mr. Uchida. He formed a special team that focused specifically on music for "Dragon Ball Z" called PROJECT "MONOLITH".

There were four main singers. The male singers were me and Shinichi Ishihara, and the female singers were KUKO (who performs with the stage name "Ikuko" these days) from the band Waffle, and YUKA. Then there was the composer of "CHA-LA HEAD-CHA-LA", Chiho Kiyooka, and the synth programmer from Yellow Magic Orchestra, Hideki Matsutake[Aren't they missing one more person here?]. Finally, Sakiko Iwamuro and Dai Sato were in charge of the lyrics.

Source: https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_528.html (dated 2021-09-28, 10 years after what went down with Kai)
(Take out "en." to access the JP version, it's around the same lines.)

No better way to confirm that he's persona non grata even beyond the removal of all his works from everything he did before.

[JulieYBM]

"Stop existing and we won't sue you into oblivion" is insane lol.

[WittyUsername]

So Kenji Yamamoto got blacklisted for copying other people’s music, but people like Nobuhiro Watsuki were allowed to resume business as usual?

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I had a weird experience when I first listened to the album "Dragon's Kiss" by Marty Friedman (killer guitar album by the way) and I noticed that a riff that Friedman wrote sounded identical to a track from one of the cutscenes from the first PS2 Budokai game. I thought I had heard all of the examples, and yet I'm still finding some to this day.
I fully believe that he deserved to lose his job. He broke the rules and had to face the music. Now does he deserve to have his identity fully erased from history? No, probably not. But, I think that Yamamoto should act as a cautionary tale for any musicians here on the website.
Side note: People in this thread have mentioned copyright law and what should/shouldn't be changed. Yes, copyright law is confusing as hell, is abused by executive's in horrible ways to screw over actual creators, (see Jerry Siegel, Joe Shuster, and Bill Finger) and there's plenty of rules that need to be updated or completely re-written, but we all have to follow the law until we can change it.

[coola]

So Kenji Yamamoto got blacklisted for copying other people’s music, but people like Nobuhiro Watsuki were allowed to resume business as usual?

Like in Polish saying "Big can do more" Koichi Sugiyama was never fired as well https://www.videogameschronicle.com/new ... -has-died/

[Xeogran]

As a fan of Kenji Yamamoto's contributions to the franchise, one can't deny that he is a very good remixer. It is unethical to take someone else's work and claim it as your own, but as for example with Battle Point Unlimited, he did fuse a few pieces into a single enjoyable one.

It's a fact that when it comes to Budokai games, the lack of his BGMs in the HD Collection was noticed by most of it's players, because they were really memorable. Of course it is thanks to the originals, but Kenji's pleasant way of converting them into an anime style helped a lot.

This franchise would feel completely different now if he still stayed, for one I don't think we would get Sumitomo for Super, or that "Ultimate Battle" would be a thing. But on the good side, most of the new games wouldn't reuse Chala as it's opening either, because with Yamamoto around the games were almost always getting new OPs.

It really makes you think how much firing him changed the landscape of modern DB.

[GhostEmperorX]

Like in Polish saying "Big can do more" Koichi Sugiyama was never fired as well https://www.videogameschronicle.com/new ... -has-died/

Big & small controversies aside (from objectionable views on more than one critical subject to copyright abuse with MIDI-only in-game soundtracks), what reason would there have been to fire someone who was not only a renowned composer, but also a JASRAC bigwig?
Between all that though, the man practically tanked his reputation on his own.
Perhaps if the society he lived in was better, they may have distanced themselves from him and his views (and actions), but even Toriyama and Horii didn't cut him off after he died.

No matter the controversy, it's an entirely different area that I'm not too sure where the grounds for comparison even is.

[coola]

Like in Polish saying "Big can do more" Koichi Sugiyama was never fired as well https://www.videogameschronicle.com/new ... -has-died/

Big & small controversies aside (from objectionable views on more than one critical subject to copyright abuse with MIDI-only in-game soundtracks), what reason would there have been to fire someone who was not only a renowned composer, but also a JASRAC bigwig?
Between all that though, the man practically tanked his reputation on his own.
Perhaps if the society he lived in was better, they may have distanced themselves from him and his views (and actions), but even Toriyama and Horii didn't cut him off after he died.

No matter the controversy, it's an entirely different area that I'm not too sure where the grounds for comparison even is.

Well, having someone around who openly deny Japan2nd WW atrocities (And even send open letter to US press about it) and had done stuff like this https://kotaku.com/politician-made-anti ... 1827885043 should be enough to fire him, or at least have serious talk and tell him to either stop, or he is gonna "retire"

[GhostEmperorX]

Well, having someone around who openly deny Japan2nd WW atrocities (And even send open letter to US press about it) and had done stuff like this https://kotaku.com/politician-made-anti ... 1827885043 should be enough to fire him, or at least have serious talk and tell him to either stop, or he is gonna "retire"

I've already seen those. No excuse can be made for him either, even on the basis of era considering who a lot of his contemporaries in the same field were. What he was advocating is even bad for regional relations over there (which weren't all that good since Sengoku, honestly).
But I guess their priorities must be in the wrong place. Remember what happened to one Hideki Taniuchi?

EDIT: Also, if you want to talk about actually similar circumstances with different outcomes... there's always Yoko Kanno.

[WittyUsername]

The basic impression I’m getting is that that entertainment industries in Japan seem to have rather skewed priorities (from a Western perspective) when it comes to what is considered an unforgivable/fireable offense. If an artist has abhorrent views or commits a serious sex crime, it will often be brushed off as a personal matter that’s no one else’s business, since Japan is a country that places a lot of emphasis on privacy, even when it comes to celebrities. Meanwhile, Japan has a very strict stance on copyright laws, and if an artist infringes on that, then God have mercy on them.

If I’m oversimplifying things then feel free to correct me. That’s just what I’ve gathered from all this.