Toei's fixation on Goku being the strongest

[90sDBZ]

Unlike Toriyama who deliberately made Goku lose fights for story purposes, Toei always seemed to fear him being perceived as anything other than the best. Like they were worried kids would think less of him for losing or being surpassed.

A big example of this is the old Z movies, where he defeats the villain in at least 9 of the 13 movies (10 if you count Gogeta killing Janemba). Compare this to the Z portion of the Manga/Anime were the only main villains he beats are Frieza and Buu.

Then there's the matter of filler constantly making him appear stronger than he should, even when it isn't logical. You have him holding his own against Pikkon who easily took out Cell, and later holding his own against the various forms of Super Buu. The whole mess with Kid Buu being called the strongest Buu stems from Toei wanting to make Goku look more impressive.

The episode were Goku finishes Kid Buu has the line "Goku is the strongest after all!" in the title, even though he wins with the power of everyone else.

This continues into GT, with Goku constantly overshadowing everyone and defeating every villain he comes across.

I don't completely dislike this approach, as he is my favourite character, and it's nice to see him kicking ass. It's just interesting to compare it to Toriyama's approach.

As soon as Toriyama got involved again with Battle of Gods, we immediately saw Goku losing fights again. I actually liked him losing to Beerus in that movie, as it gave him a new goal to aspire to, and also avoided the predictable ending of previous movies.

This continued into Resurrection F and Super. At no point in any of the new material is Goku presented as the strongest character. He's constantly seen struggling against stronger opponents, and often loses the fight.

For all the problems Super has, I actually think this is one thing it does right. The Beerus jokes do overstay their welcome a bit, but seeing Goku as the underdog again isn't a bad thing.

Which approach do you guys prefer and why?

[MasenkoHA]

The Kid Buu thing definitely bothered me because there's no reason to think that's the most powerful Buu. Goku wouldn't even consider fighting Buuhan or Buutenks on his own without trying to fuse but was willing to fight Kid Buu one on one. I'm pretty sure, in the manga at least, when Super Buu showed up inside himself Goku even chastised Vegeta for destroying the potara earring. But no, we are supposed to believe Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and Goku can now keep up with himo with the power of protagonists on his side.

[JulieYBM]

It's an affect of these projects being made ala focus-group-esque approaches to writing. It's typically something pushed by profit-minded producers, and I think that the mentality makes these projects has inflexible stories a lot of the time.

[GhostEmperorX]

Now that you mention it, Movie 13 comes to mind as being the worst instance of this, even baked into its title.
Tapion should have gotten his tragic ending.

Unpopular gripes aside, it generally does seem that Koyama was of a really different mind compared to Toriyama. Even in other areas besides this one.

[Vegetto95]

It's funny how every example you cite comes from Z onward, when it was extremely common in Dragon Ball for Gokū to be incredibly dominant in most of his fights, even in those taken directly from the manga. Sure, he got his ass soundly kicked by Tao Pai Pai and Piccolo Daimaō, but with the aid of bullshit magic water and later magic bullshit water provided by Karin, he came back and defeated them both pretty soundly. And even with said rematch against Daimaō in which he only won very narrowly, he spent the vast majority of the fight having a pretty clear advantage over Piccolo and it only started evening out once Piccolo got a lucky disabling shot in. And his fights against Namu, Giran, Jackie Chun, both against Tenshinhan, and Ma Junior all felt very similar... somewhat close to even, but still with a very tangible sense of Gokū having the edge.

So I feel that Tōei going the route they did wasn't that different from what had already happened. Even though Gokū started to become slightly less omnipresent in the Saiyan arc and character development started focusing a tad more on Gohan, it still always seemed to circle back around to Gokū, and he was almost always the one to come in and save the day from the super duper strong bad guys when the other characters were getting their asses handed to them. So even in cases like him almost always beating the movie villains, he and everyone else were all about to fucking drop before Gokū used the Genki Dama or got Ki from his allies or something along those lines to just barely defeat the ultra-powerful bad guy, which... really isn't that different at all from how things usually went in the manga.

Now, would I like have liked the other characters to have stayed more relevant? ABSOLUTELY. Some of my favorite characters are the supporting ones like Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Kuririn, #18, Mr. Boo etc, all characters who sooner or later faded into complete obscurity in the original manga/DB/Z/GT anime run of the series. GT, for example, started out decently with a lot of focus on Trunks and Pan (though it's another discussion entirely as to whether that was a good thing in the case of Pan, considering the way Tōei wrote her for a good while...) for the first 15ish episodes and Gokū kinda just felt like he was just along for the ride... but then Gokū just kind took over about halfway through the Baby arc, GT never looked back, and no one else really seemed to matter anymore. Which, hey, to be fair... that wasn't really all that far removed from original Dragon Ball.

But... there's also things like how the manga/Z ended off with Oob being built up so much to be Gokū's student and rival and potentially one of the strongest characters in the series... and then GT just did next to nothing with him, in favor of Gokū being the most prominent character again. Unlike a lot of people I've seen, I have NOTHING against Gokū being made into a kid again in GT, and in fact I honestly really like it (having read all of the manga and watched the entire original anime run in Japanese beginning to end, I honestly like Gokū as a kid best. I love him as an adult too, don't get me wrong... but he's so fun and adorable in the first 2/3rds of Dragon Ball and I honestly love that in GT as well), but once he turns Super Saiyan 4 and gets his super stwong adult body back. it does seem like the series becomes ONLY about him. Which, again, isn't exactly different from original DB. And for the most part, it seems Super has kind of followed on that more or less about the same (which, in the case of the Super anime at least, has nooot exactly been good for him, what with the way Tōei writes him nowadays...)

Now, Super has done a little tiny bit to make up for some of that, as it does give a LEEEETTLE bit more screentime to characters that haven't gotten much of it in decades (though they often don't actually really DO anything with that screetime), but it's also done a LOT to make it WAAAAY worse, due to the horribly out-of-character way they write some of the side characters, or when they do include characters like Tenshinhan or #18 only for them to do absolutely nothing of any real value (*cough*Revival of 'F'*cough*Tournament of Power*cough*Super Hero*cough*), writing characters out of stories entirely for no damn good reason they way they CONSTANTLY did with Mr. Boo, Goten, and Trunks, etc. So even with, for example, the recently renewed focus on Piccolo and Gohan in Super Hero (and it yet remains to be seen if that will even stick at all or just go back to being all about Gokū), it still doesn't feel like it's really overwritten the extreme emphasis on Gokū that the Super era has consistently had since 2013.

Like, I do hate things like how Tenshinhan is introduced as this badass rival for Gokū, narrowly wins against him, has a change of heart, trains to defeat Piccolo Daimaō by himself... and then gets his ass kicked and subsequently gets almost completely shoved aside by Toriyama for the rest of the series. I do 100% wish Toriyama had treated his side characters MUCH better than he did and given them some more time to shine aside from five seconds after their introductions. So while I agree that Gokū has always been the star of the show to the point where it often feels detrimental to everyone else... I really don't think that's QUITE as much chiefly Tōei's fault as you do. Tōei definitely added to it a fair bit, but Toriyama had been putting the spotlight almost entirely on Gokū since day 1, making him very clearly stronger than everyone else by a country mile almost the entire time.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t get the impression they’re particularly obsessed with making Goku “the strongest.” Goku defeats the villain in most of the Z movies because he’s the main character of the series, and the movies were meant to be short little representations of what Dragon Ball was all about. Gohan defeats Bojack in Movie 9 for example because that movie was made at a point when the assumption was that Gohan was to be the new lead.

Toei in general seemed pretty onboard with the idea that Gohan was going to replace Goku as the main character. That’s why the opening and ending sequences for the Boo saga clearly position him as the new lead. I think the only time Toei has really been guilty of hyping up Goku at the expense of the other characters was in GT, but that show severely scaled back the cast anyway. I feel like the writers at that point simply didn’t know what to do with the other characters, beyond treating them as fodder.

[ABED]

He wins in the movies bc they're short little bites so why not just send the audience home happy? The last few movies have been in continuity, so it's different from the ones that aren't.

The other answer is Goku is the protagonist.

A big difference in Toei's and Toriyama's approach is that Toei doesn't seem to quite understand that the story is a martial arts story, not a superhero story. It's about Goku's quest to be the best, not save the day.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Unlike Toriyama who deliberately made Goku lose fights for story purposes, Toei always seemed to fear him being perceived as anything other than the best. Like they were worried kids would think less of him for losing or being surpassed.

A big example of this is the old Z movies, where he defeats the villain in at least 9 of the 13 movies (10 if you count Gogeta killing Janemba). Compare this to the Z portion of the Manga/Anime were the only main villains he beats are Frieza and Buu.

Then there's the matter of filler constantly making him appear stronger than he should, even when it isn't logical. You have him holding his own against Pikkon who easily took out Cell, and later holding his own against the various forms of Super Buu. The whole mess with Kid Buu being called the strongest Buu stems from Toei wanting to make Goku look more impressive.

The episode were Goku finishes Kid Buu has the line "Goku is the strongest after all!" in the title, even though he wins with the power of everyone else.

This continues into GT, with Goku constantly overshadowing everyone and defeating every villain he comes across.

I don't completely dislike this approach, as he is my favourite character, and it's nice to see him kicking ass. It's just interesting to compare it to Toriyama's approach.

As soon as Toriyama got involved again with Battle of Gods, we immediately saw Goku losing fights again. I actually liked him losing to Beerus in that movie, as it gave him a new goal to aspire to, and also avoided the predictable ending of previous movies.

This continued into Resurrection F and Super. At no point in any of the new material is Goku presented as the strongest character. He's constantly seen struggling against stronger opponents, and often loses the fight.

For all the problems Super has, I actually think this is one thing it does right. The Beerus jokes do overstay their welcome a bit, but seeing Goku as the underdog again isn't a bad thing.

Which approach do you guys prefer and why?

I prefer Toriyama's above anything else. And I thought this thread misunderstood Goku because this is his desire, he is obsessed with getting stronger. And I am happy to say this thread got Goku right and that it also got the theme of self improvement right.

[GokuHater]

Does he really lose all that much in DB/DBZ though?
Let's review.
In original DB he got his butt kicked royally 2 times:
- From Tao-Tao
- From Piccolo Daimao
He also was beaten by Tambourin at the beginning but this was clearly due to him being tired, hungry and worn out. So for the original series we should count those 2 instances.

Now how does it look in Z section of the story?
- Along with Piccolo he deafeted Raditz - he died but this was his choice and at the end he proved victorious
- He got destroyed by Vegeta but in the end they proved victorious - I know without Krilin and Gohan help, he would be dead but still the story told about their victory
- He got tricked by Ginyu and would have lost indeed
- Frieza nearly destroyed him but, as with Vegeta, ultimately he won
- He lost to Android 19 fair and square
- He gave up to Cell but technically he never was destroyed or defeated
- In Buu saga he NEVER lost - I don't count Majin Vegeta hiting him by surprise, this was a shot clearly meant not to win but to go deal with Buu alone
So clear Goku's failures from that time, I would count as 2 - discussively 3 if you count Cell.

Having said that there wasn't as much of clear defeats of him as we may think. How does it look in Super?
- He lost against Beerus fair and square, at least sort of but it's clear he wouldn't have won
- He got shot during Ressurecton F, this was however very quickly "fixed"
- He gave up his match against Hit
- He got "killed" by Hit but funnily enough this is Toei only
- They all lost against Zamasu but this is more of everyone's failure rather than Goku's, he actually started the actions leading to timeline destruction
- Moro destroyed Goku and Vegeta on Namek - I count this as a clear loss, during the final Battle there were times when Goku struggled just like with Vegeta and Frieza but proved victorious in the end
- He never lost to Granolah or Gas - still struggled many times
So that's 2 loses for Super.

Now let's look at GT at last - the Toei show through and through - still with Toryiama's help
- He absolutely loses to Baby in the beginning
- I would also count Goku's fail during Baby when he got his tail back. While he comes back to the fight, it actually takes some time and bares some resemblance with Tao-Tao or Piccolo Daimao loss. It's only after Goku manages to calm Golden Oozaru and unlocks SSJ4 he starts fighting back
- Against Android 17 he didn't lose - he struggled but that's a norm in Goku's fights
- Against Omega Shenron he was nearly dead at one point - whether you want it count as a failure or not is to discuss.
So I would count 2 loses for GT.
And that's indeed less than in previous series.

Still he does struggle in many fights just like before. These fights (and even those in the movies) aren't a walk in the park for him, on the contrary, often there are times where everything seems lost (Turles, Slug, Cooler, Super Android 13, Broly).

This isn't like in Toryiama's work Goku loses constantly and then comes back and in Toei he always wins without any danger.
That's more of a 2:1 for me. In GT Goku is supposed to be kind of a master - he even was so in Buu saga so we expect him not to go head on into danger and be killed but rather strategize or find a way in battles. In the movies they show his struggle but as this is a movie this can last up for half an hour max and not ~15 episodes

I think the issue you mentioned is a bit different. It isn't about loss or win. It's about Goku's portrayal.
In Toei media he is indeed shown more like a hero. A savior even of sorts. A one punch man sometimes
Meanwhile Toryiama wanted to tell a story about a martial artist who heads for the top, betters himself but also struggles.

I also get the impression in Toryiama's work overcoming odds and villains are more of a comune effort - Goku AND someone else.
In GT/movies that's rather Goku.

[super michael]

True Toei has a fixation in Goku being stronger than Vegeta. An example is U6 vs U7, they gave Goku SSB Kaioken, while Vegeta had nothing to match that. In the ToP Goku had UI, which puts him leaves above everyone else, only downside was when his body exploded.

In the Broly movie somehow Base Goku performs way better than SSG Vegeta.

However Toei seems to think they need to make Goku into a mindless clown in DBS. Even in DBS Super Heroes, his entire scenes is him being clueless on things he should be master.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

The Kid Buu thing definitely bothered me because there's no reason to think that's the most powerful Buu. Goku wouldn't even consider fighting Buuhan or Buutenks on his own without trying to fuse but was willing to fight Kid Buu one on one. I'm pretty sure, in the manga at least, when Super Buu showed up inside himself Goku even chastised Vegeta for destroying the potara earring. But no, we are supposed to believe Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and Goku can now keep up with himo with the power of protagonists on his side.

Toriyama can only write power from a linear perspective.

[Dragon ball master]

Its crazy that in bojack. Goku just breaks the laws of death. He basically just went "screw death" and in BIO BROLY at the end goku had to just showed up and got told that broly has been defeated? Was that really necessary?

[JulieYBM]

Its crazy that in bojack. Goku just breaks the laws of death. He basically just went "screw death" and in BIO BROLY at the end goku had to just showed up and got told that broly has been defeated? Was that really necessary?

Viewer data suggested so, so yes.

[kemuri07]

Toei is merely a reflection of what the audience wants. That's it.

Many people want to see Goku do the thing and save the day, and that's what Toei is going to give then, goddammit.

[MasenkoHA]

" and in BIO BROLY at the end goku had to just showed up and got told that broly has been defeated? Was that really necessary?

They said he was causing trouble in hell, that's why Goku was told in Bio Broly. It wasn't just "Hey Goku, Broly had been defeated.....again"

It probably was meant to lead into a 4th Broli movie before they decided to go with Janemba instead.

[JulieYBM]

" and in BIO BROLY at the end goku had to just showed up and got told that broly has been defeated? Was that really necessary?

They said he was causing trouble in hell, that's why Goku was told in Bio Broly. It wasn't just "Hey Goku, Broly had been defeated.....again"

It probably was meant to lead into a 4th Broli movie before they decided to go with Janemba instead.

Interestingly enough, that film would have been directed by Yamauchi Shigeyasu, too, just like the first two. I wonder if Yamauchi could have included any of his other ideas for the character in the film?

[Hellspawn28]

Does he really lose all that much in DB/DBZ though?
Let's review.
In original DB he got his butt kicked royally 2 times:
- From Tao-Tao
- From Piccolo Daimao
He also was beaten by Tambourin at the beginning but this was clearly due to him being tired, hungry and worn out. So for the original series we should count those 2 instances.

He did lose to Roshi as his major lost. For the old DBZ movies, he lost to Janemba and had to fuse with Vegeta to beat him.

[Koitsukai]

He also was beaten by Tambourin at the beginning but this was clearly due to him being tired, hungry and worn out. So for the original series we should count those 2 instances.


- He got "killed" by Hit but funnily enough this is Toei only
- They all lost against Zamasu but this is more of everyone's failure rather than Goku's, he actually started the actions leading to timeline destruction
- Moro destroyed Goku and Vegeta on Namek - I count this as a clear loss, during the final Battle there were times when Goku struggled just like with Vegeta and Frieza but proved victorious in the end
- He never lost to Granolah or Gas - still struggled many times
So that's 2 loses for Super.


- Against Android 17 he didn't lose - he struggled but that's a norm in Goku's fights
- Against Omega Shenron he was nearly dead at one point - whether you want it count as a failure or not is to discuss.
So I would count 2 loses for GT.
And that's indeed less than in previous series.

I'd argue there are a few losses you are not considering.
He lost to Yamcha, due to being hungry, but he still lost. IIRC, Yamcha steals the DBs?
He loses to Jackie Chun, loses to Tenshinhan, as well.
I'd say 5 losses in DB.

You are right that he never lost in the Buu arc. Although, the anime has him losing to Buutenks and Buuhan. Kinda the opposite of what this thread is claiming.

The DBS anime has Goku losing to Black twice. In the manga, he pretty much loses to Jiren on their one-on-one fight, but I can see that loss not counting due to them still being able to fight each other some more.

I disagree with Goku not losing to Granola or Gas. Granola literally oneshot him, Goku was distracted, Granny seized the perfect opportunity, whatever, but he still put UI Goku to bed. Granny oneshot him twice before when Goku was using lower forms.
Goku beat Adult Gas but then was destroyed by Old Gas, and Zombie Gas as well. Not to mention what Black Freeza did to the saiyans.
He is a jobber in DBS basically lol.

About GT, I disagre vs Super 17. After the struggle, he lost and was saved by 18. We can make a case for Goku losing due to being stupid as ever, but he still lost.
The same vs Omega, apparently he died and came back. He killed him after he was brought back, but he lost his life first.
Also, vs Rildo he lost as well. We can say it was planned that way, but he still lost, the plan involved Goku losing.
At least 5 losses in GT.

I'd say TOEI has him losing plenty of times, even when Toriyama doesn't. However, Toyotaro and Toriyama are going to town with Loser Goku.
With so many losses, I guess the movies having Goku win kinda balances things out

[ABED]

" and in BIO BROLY at the end goku had to just showed up and got told that broly has been defeated? Was that really necessary?

They said he was causing trouble in hell, that's why Goku was told in Bio Broly. It wasn't just "Hey Goku, Broly had been defeated.....again"

It probably was meant to lead into a 4th Broli movie before they decided to go with Janemba instead.

I think it's just meant as a fun little scene at the end of the movie and nothing more.

[MasenkoHA]

" and in BIO BROLY at the end goku had to just showed up and got told that broly has been defeated? Was that really necessary?

They said he was causing trouble in hell, that's why Goku was told in Bio Broly. It wasn't just "Hey Goku, Broly had been defeated.....again"

It probably was meant to lead into a 4th Broli movie before they decided to go with Janemba instead.

I think it's just meant as a fun little scene at the end of the movie and nothing more.

That's also possible, but my main point was Goku wasn't told Broli was defeated just cuz