Dragon Ball Daima (2024)

[JulieYBM]

I'll laugh so hard if Nakatsuru was brought back because he designed Super Saiyan 4 and Daima is going to use it. I doubt that will happen, but I'll take it!

[AliTheZombie13]

I'll laugh so hard if Nakatsuru was brought back because he designed Super Saiyan 4 and Daima is going to use it. I doubt that will happen, but I'll take it!

You know, I really hope this doesn't happen.
I'm pretty sure if Toriyama ever attempted to "Toriyamafy" SSJ4, he would annihilate everything that made it special. Namely, the fact it is unlocked by Goku's character actually developing. I just don't see Toriyama!Goku going, "Hm... Maybe fighting isn't everyting? Maybe I love my loved ones? Maybe I want to protect people instead of fighting all the time?" And then we'd get everyone trashing the old one like "Toriyama's vision of Goku is what matters the most, he isn't Superman!" as if that makes him a better character.

[JulieYBM]

I'll laugh so hard if Nakatsuru was brought back because he designed Super Saiyan 4 and Daima is going to use it. I doubt that will happen, but I'll take it!

You know, I really hope this doesn't happen.
I'm pretty sure if Toriyama ever attempted to "Toriyamafy" SSJ4, he would annihilate everything that made it special. Namely, the fact it is unlocked by Goku's character actually developing. I just don't see Toriyama!Goku going, "Hm... Maybe fighting isn't everyting? Maybe I love my loved ones? Maybe I want to protect people instead of fighting all the time?" And then we'd get everyone trashing the old one like "Toriyama's vision of Goku is what matters the most, he isn't Superman!" as if that makes him a better character.

Yeah, that behavior from Toriyama and fans would suck. Badly. I'm an optimistic bitch, though...

[TobyS]

I'll laugh so hard if Nakatsuru was brought back because he designed Super Saiyan 4 and Daima is going to use it. I doubt that will happen, but I'll take it!

You know, I really hope this doesn't happen.
I'm pretty sure if Toriyama ever attempted to "Toriyamafy" SSJ4, he would annihilate everything that made it special. Namely, the fact it is unlocked by Goku's character actually developing. I just don't see Toriyama!Goku going, "Hm... Maybe fighting isn't everyting? Maybe I love my loved ones? Maybe I want to protect people instead of fighting all the time?" And then we'd get everyone trashing the old one like "Toriyama's vision of Goku is what matters the most, he isn't Superman!" as if that makes him a better character.

Lol he got it cause he stared at the Earth, he shouldn't be able to will himself to mutate in a half monkey man just by having a character breaking epiphany.

Goku not being superman shouldn't be the be all and end all of his character, I'd like some growth too, but turning him into a lesser version of another different character that late in the game is kinda pointless.

He wanting to be a proactive protector also undermines the growth of the second generation in practical terms too.

Meh.

He will redesign it too skinny, but hopefully brown black or gold fur instead of randomass pink and eye shadow and magically appearing pants and growing to adulthood but only while using it and stupid crap like that.

It only looks cool in Hero's it looks goofy af in GT.

[Jord]

I'm really wondering if Nozawa will use child Goku's voice for this character. I really hope not. Recent performances show that she sounds really strained when doing zo. Perhaps she will voice adult Goku and a new VA will voice the smaller Goku.

Getting some GT vibes from that spaceship as well.

While the animation looks good, I'm not really convinced yet.

[MasenkoHA]

Perhaps she will voice adult Goku and a new VA will voice the smaller Goku.

Yeah, there's a 0 percent chance of that happening. The Japanese version has pretty much always just had the same actor voicing the same character as a kid and as an adult.

[sangofe]

I'm really wondering if Nozawa will use child Goku's voice for this character. I really hope not. Recent performances show that she sounds really strained when doing zo. Perhaps she will voice adult Goku and a new VA will voice the smaller Goku.

I really don't hope some other person voice kid Goku.

[Majin Buu]

And then we'd get everyone trashing the old one like "Toriyama's vision of Goku is what matters the most, he isn't Superman!" as if that makes him a better character.

It's not a crime to like something Toriyama did.

I say this because you come off like you think it's just the worst thing ever to like anything about the guy and his work simply because you personally don't like him. I get that you like GT, but would it really be that terrible if Toriyama redesigned SSJ4 and people liked it? I'm sure some of those people would give you reasons for doing so that aren't simply "because Toriyama made it".

I know the types of fans you're referring to exist, and yes, they're annoying. And yes, there's valid criticisms to make of Toriyama and his work (I've made my own share of them), but there's also valid things to like about him and his work too.

It's ok to not like the guy, but it's not fair to paint anyone who does likes him- or at least doesn't outright dislike him, as some kind of unthinking mouth-breather. That's painting with too broad of a brush.

[MasenkoHA]

When he fandom almost universally prefers Koyama's Bardock to Toriyama's Bardock , Super Saiyan 4 to Super Saiyan God/Blue, and a significant amount seem to prefer Toei Messiah Goku to Toriyama Fighting addicted hillbilly Goku (see fans being burned by Goku's actions at the end of Z and calling GT a better ending, even when they didn't like GT as a series), accusing the fandom of having a blind Toriyama worship problem seems...idk...misinformed?

[JulieYBM]

I mean, the accusation against Toriyama's Bardock is that making him 'good' (which I struggle to really think of him as) somehow makes him less unique/less Toriyama-esque than the 'badass' and 'eviler' Koyama Bardock. Now, that being said, I prefer the Toriyama Bardock because I think that Toriyama wound up creating a character who is easier to understand and relatate to. The Bardock we see in Dragon Ball Super: Broli is tired. He's been emulating the life he's been told to emulate since he was born, and now he finds himself wanting something more and something else. That's real, and something that speaks volumes on such a quick notice (less than twenty minutes of screentime). Before Bardock can do much more than dip his toes into 'change' he's snuffed out by Freeza, forever limiting his growth and evolution. It's really sad, and honestly reminds me of a lot of people I know personally.

[Zephyr]

I just don't see Toriyama!Goku going, "Hm... Maybe fighting isn't everyting? Maybe I love my loved ones? Maybe I want to protect people instead of fighting all the time?" And then we'd get everyone trashing the old one like "Toriyama's vision of Goku is what matters the most, he isn't Superman!" as if that makes him a better character.

It's also possible that some people like Toriyama's Goku because he's a fun and interesting character in his own right. I love introspective characters who grow beyond their fighting drives, like Guts and Thorfinn, but I don't need Goku to be a Guts or a Thorfinn to like him. He can just be Goku. Goku is Kenough. I don't need every character in fiction to be the same flavor in order to enjoy them or for them to be good. I don't need every action manga to be a Berserk or a Vinland Saga to think it's good. Like me some variety.

I mean, the accusation against Toriyama's Bardock is that making him 'good' (which I struggle to really think of him as) somehow makes him less unique/less Toriyama-esque than the 'badass' and 'eviler' Koyama Bardock. Now, that being said, I prefer the Toriyama Bardock because I think that Toriyama wound up creating a character who is easier to understand and relatate to. The Bardock we see in Dragon Ball Super: Broli is tired. He's been emulating the life he's been told to emulate since he was born, and now he finds himself wanting something more and something else. That's real, and something that speaks volumes on such a quick notice (less than twenty minutes of screentime). Before Bardock can do much more than dip his toes into 'change' he's snuffed out by Freeza, forever limiting his growth and evolution. It's really sad, and honestly reminds me of a lot of people I know personally.

I thought part of the ire towards Toriyama's Bardock was that they gave the main character, someone who is special among his own kin, a father who, it turns out, was also special among his own kin. Which I think is fair. But also, the critique ignores that Koyama's Bardock was also special among the Saiyans (low ranking warrior who fought enough to get way stronger than even elites like Nappa, had psychic powers, was the last Saiyan to stand against Freeza). The other part of the ire, as I understand it, is that given his psychic powers, Koyama Bardock was in more of a tragic story. He could see his own demise, but could do nothing to stop it. That's neat! That's replaced with him sending Goku away on a random and convenient hunch. Finally, sending Goku away to protect him doesn't have that cool irony that the original had, where he was sent away to kill, but that ended up protecting him and helping him save others.

[Yuji]

I'll laugh so hard if Nakatsuru was brought back because he designed Super Saiyan 4 and Daima is going to use it. I doubt that will happen, but I'll take it!

You know, I really hope this doesn't happen.
I'm pretty sure if Toriyama ever attempted to "Toriyamafy" SSJ4, he would annihilate everything that made it special. Namely, the fact it is unlocked by Goku's character actually developing. I just don't see Toriyama!Goku going, "Hm... Maybe fighting isn't everyting? Maybe I love my loved ones? Maybe I want to protect people instead of fighting all the time?" And then we'd get everyone trashing the old one like "Toriyama's vision of Goku is what matters the most, he isn't Superman!" as if that makes him a better character.

It's almost like Goku wanting to protect his loved ones was the entire reason he went Super Saiyan to begin with. Truly a remarkable achievement of GT character writing to develop Goku into the character he's been from the start of the series.

Anyway, on the topic of SS4, I wouldn't be opposed to it but I quite like the idea of Daima going the entire run transformation-less. Maybe sprinkle some Super Saiyan in there for the climax. If SS4 is reintroduced I can't imagine how it'd be anything more than a one-time thing likely a result of some specific circumstances, much like the universal Blue in Heroes. The series is clearly building toward UI being Goku's ultimate form and has firmly placed Blue as Goku's standard battle form so I'm not sure how they'd handle a competing form in the same role.

[Rafa Fast]

I'm not really aware of the current situation in the fandom
But I've heard about the "hate" towards Toriyama (and even Toyotaro) in recent years, and to me this seems to be just another case of "Old is good, new is bad", I've never seen these people saying that Super did at least one thing better than DB, Z and even GT, but I could be wrong since I don't even see what the fandom is debating.

I like SSJ God and Ultra Instinct more than SSJ4 though, which is why I said I'd like to see those two forms reintroduced in case Daima tries to disregard Super as a continuation of Z, hehe (It doesn't have to be in Daima, since as I said I'm not expecting any transformations in this story)

[AliTheZombie13]

It's not a crime to like something Toriyama did.

I say this because you come off like you think it's just the worst thing ever to like anything about the guy and his work simply because you personally don't like him. I get that you like GT, but would it really be that terrible if Toriyama redesigned SSJ4 and people liked it? I'm sure some of those people would give you reasons for doing so that aren't simply "because Toriyama made it".

I know the types of fans you're referring to exist, and yes, they're annoying. And yes, there's valid criticisms to make of Toriyama and his work (I've made my own share of them), but there's also valid things to like about him and his work too.

It's ok to not like the guy, but it's not fair to paint anyone who does likes him- or at least doesn't outright dislike him, as some kind of unthinking mouth-breather. That's painting with too broad of a brush.

When he fandom almost universally prefers Koyama's Bardock to Toriyama's Bardock , Super Saiyan 4 to Super Saiyan God/Blue, and a significant amount seem to prefer Toei Messiah Goku to Toriyama Fighting addicted hillbilly Goku (see fans being burned by Goku's actions at the end of Z and calling GT a better ending, even when they didn't like GT as a series), accusing the fandom of having a blind Toriyama worship problem seems...idk...misinformed?

Maybe I am spiteful due to years of bad interactions with the ugly side of the DB fandom.
I don't hate Toriyama, as much as I criticize some of the things I think he did terribly wrong in Z and Super.
I recognize he wrote all of pre-Namek Dragon Ball pretty gracefully and I do like his work.

However, Toriyama's recent characterization of Goku is... incredibly problematic, and I see the fandom defending it for no other reason than because "this is what Toriyama wanted all along!" Goku is not supposed to be Superman, but he isn't supposed to be a borderline sociopath either. I have similar issues with Vegeta, ChiChi and a number of other characters who were reduced to caricatures in recent years. Whether this is the fault of Toriyama, or someone at Toei, I don't care, it's bad. And telling me, "But Toriyama did this!" only makes me think Toriyama is a bad writer.

Also, take a look around you.

Actual dead-serious news article:
"Dragon Ball Daima is already avoiding all the mistakes GT did!"

Okay... What "mistakes" are you talking about?
"Turning Goku into a kid. But this time, it's actually good, because Toriyama is behind it, and he turned everyone else into a kid, so it's better, okay? And he will pay more attention to Goku's limbs, because GT never did that, so naturally, because Toriyama, it will be a masterpiece!"

Things like that do leave a sour taste in my mouth.
I don't want Daima to be "the better GT" explicitly to avoid things like that.

[MasenkoHA]

However, Toriyama's recent characterization of Goku is... incredibly problematic, and I see the fandom defending it for no other reason than because "this is what Toriyama wanted all along!" Goku is not supposed to be Superman, but he isn't supposed to be a borderline sociopath either. I have similar issues with Vegeta, ChiChi and a number of other characters who were reduced to caricatures in recent years. Whether this is the fault of Toriyama, or someone at Toei, I don't care, it's bad. And telling me, "But Toriyama did this!" only makes me think Toriyama is a bad writer.

How much of modern Goku is really Toriyama though? He wrote the movies and provides basic outlines for Super's story arcs (except maybe Moro and Granola? That was all Toyo right?) but it seems Toei's staff and Toyotaro fill out the finer details.

I'm not even sure what Goku did that was sociopathic (I also don't read the Super manga and barely keep up with it) he suggested a tournament to Zeno, I guess? And Zeno decided to use that to decide the fate of half the universes instead of just wiping most of them out?

Also, take a look around you.

Actual dead-serious news article:
"Dragon Ball Daima is already avoiding all the mistakes GT did!"

Okay... What "mistakes" are you talking about?
"Turning Goku into a kid. But this time, it's actually good, because Toriyama is behind it, and he turned everyone else into a kid, so it's better, okay? And he will pay more attention to Goku's limbs, because GT never did that, so naturally, because Toriyama, it will be a masterpiece!"

Things like that do leave a sour taste in my mouth.
I don't want Daima to be "the better GT" explicitly to avoid things like that.

[/quote]

To be fair it's a Screenrant article. ScreenRant, CBR, and all tbose clickbait sites are just cancer gaining sentience and shitting out "articles" (in the most liberal use of the word) that seemed AI generated for clicks. I wouldn't call that a dead serious article or indicative of anything but the downfall of journalism.

[AliTheZombie13]

How much of modern Goku is really Toriyama though? He wrote the movies and provides basic outlines for Super's story arcs (except maybe Moro and Granola? That was all Toyo right?) but it seems Toei's staff and Toyotaro fill out the finer details.

That's the thing.
I don't want to believe moronic Super Goku is really Toriyama's brainchild, I'm pretty sure it's more Toei's writers writing him like that.
But just you dare go to, I don't know, Twitter, YouTube, Reddit, and post publicly that you think his character was done dirty. See what happens.

To be fair it's a Screenrant article. ScreenRant, CBR, and all tbose clickbait sites are just cancer gaining sentience and shitting out "articles" (in the most liberal use of the word) that seemed AI generated for clicks. I wouldn't call that a dead serious article or indicative of anything but the downfall of journalism.

I won't drop names, though I have seen moderately-known DB YouTubers and influencers make those arguments.

[Koitsukai]

If SS4 is ever retold, I think it will be on DBS and probably for Broly, and Broly alone. Which wouldn't be a bad thing for me, SS4 always seemed like a legendary form, and who better than Broly to attain it?
I doubt Goku gets SS4 and then UI.

It's extremely soon to say Daima will do something better or worse than another show, but GT was always criticized for being way too Goku-oriented, and Daima apparently is taking the entire cast into account(even if it's just the spell not singling him out), so in that regard I'd say they are not doing something I, personally, always had a problem with.

I gotta say, the villains don't excite me much, the designs I mean. They remind me of Avo and Kado, whom I never liked.

[Jinto]

The biggest factor that made GT unpopular was the art. We went from the colorful setting of DBZ to the horrendous gray filter trend of the anime of those time.
DBGT design also felt like a caricature of DBZ, almost fanfic (it was always considered as such in my country). Toriyama's trademark design was always beauty in simplicity. GT on the other hand, lean toward the edgy side almost like the western vision of what DBZ was ie "serious men with serious face wearing serious outfit striking a serious pose in a serious situation". Then they kind of dropped it in the last arc to give a more balanced concept, yet still felt boring, the dragon were all monster of the week with gimmick power up until nova shenron but many have already dropped it by that point.

All in all painting the picture of a sequel that never knew what it wanted to be, it was just there.

[Xeogran]

GT on the other hand, lean toward the edgy side almost like the western vision of what DBZ was ie "serious men with serious face wearing serious outfit striking a serious pose in a serious situation".

GT wasn't "edgy" at all. It's only the US dubbing that made it feel like so. The original soundtrack, the voice acting and chill slice of life episodes clearly made it be very balanced between serious and humorous. People shouldn't skip through the first 20 episodes and jump straight to Rildo.

And I disagree with the saying that GT is unpopular, when it's still one of the most popular 90s anime series out there despite being short. It's been what, 30 years? And it's still being talked and debated about to this day. Heck, GT is still getting NEW content to this day.

[AliTheZombie13]

GT is pretty unpopular, yes.
It's still getting content, but more in a "We're milking this franchise dry" way rather than genuine interest in its story.
And it's still getting talked about just so people can say how bad it was and how to avoid being as bad as it was.
I don't agree with most of the criticisms towards it, but its unpopularity is undeniable.

I will say though, GT is only edgy if you watch the Funimation dub.
Otherwise, it's pretty goofy and light-hearted.