Super and the narutoification of Dragon Ball (or why the meditation line actually matters)

[Faustus]

Have not posted in a blue moon, but I wrote this earlier--thoughts or reactions?

I can’t help but feel that there’s a significant difference in spirit in how modern DB is written, compared to the original manga--and that this change fundamentally has to do with how it sees the relationship between its hero and the world, and particularly as that relationship relates to the hero’s goals. I’ll take two noteworthy DB successors, One Piece and Naruto, as points of comparison to illustrate this. In One Piece, Luffy’s aim is to find a treasure and to become pirate king. Naruto’s is to become the leader of his village. In each of these stories, the hero moves through the medium of a static world, progressing in the direction of a predetermined, worldly goal. Their goals relate to the world as it concretely exists and precedes their arrival onto its stage. And so this world must have a solidity and a determined structure so that it can be (quite literally in One Piece) “navigated” by its characters; thus rules, mechanics, intricacies of world government and chakra “systems” are lengthily rationalized, elaborated, broken down in laborious detail—everything must be established, understood, and accounted for. But, to keep the story from wrapping up too quickly, the hero, while talented and obviously special, still has a lot to learn to cover the absolute distance between themselves and their goal.

What distinguishes the original DB from its epigones to my mind—and makes it richer from an artistic point of view—is a dynamic and mutually determining relationship between hero and world at the level of the story’s very composition. After all, all Goku wants is to perfect himself endlessly as a martial artist; this goal is not only not finite but it attaches to no worldly thing; it is grounded entirely in himself. And so it is not only he who responds to the world around him—the world must also respond to him: it must expand constantly to provide ever greater challenges against which to test his mettle. It grows in response to--to accommodate--his drive. Goku becomes strongest on earth, and look who shows up from outer space; no sooner outer space is conquered than there turn out to be other dimensions in time, and then an ancient monster pops in out of prehistory. Unlike the more recent heroes who have to learn to navigate an established world to progress slowly toward heights they’ve set their sights on from the start, Goku constantly outstrips the strongest guy we know and thus forces the world itself to become ever bigger. His goal is indefinite and always relative, and so must the world also be as his drive carries him continually past the edge of its borders. And no doubt that if DB hadn’t ended in 1995 it would have continued in this way, furnishing him with ever stronger opponents from ever darker corners of the newly discovered universe. It is as if the world gradually took shape according to his wishes. It is as though, magically, it was made for him. And so Goku is, in a deep sense, the creator of Dragon Ball. Goku’s remark at the end of the Cell arc that he “always attracts bad guys” is, as critics of that line like to point out, not literally very true (sure, his brother and Cell, but who else really?), but it does capture a philosophical truth to do with the way the writing itself functions, a truth at the heart of its world-building philosophy.

Cut to Super, where Goku does have a more-or-less determinate goal for the length of its duration: to surpass Beerus. And although this goalpost is in a sense constantly receding, it is nevertheless a goal fixed and foreknown at a distance–with important consequences, I think, both for the world and for its hero. The world, for its part, becomes static as it never was before. Exact explanations of the mechanics of things (e.g. of the otherworldly hierarchy, of different powers, cf. Perfected Blue, etc.) become much more frequent. At the same time, Goku is stuck in the apprentice role, forced to assimilate the mechanics slowly—presumably moving towards his goal, only he can’t reach it, not yet. He, too, is now merely moving, inchmeal, through a static and circumscribed world. And because of this, Dragon Ball as a whole no longer has the distinctive quality it used to have: the expansive, open, world-shaping power of its hero’s drive. And because of this, too, I would argue, Goku as a character is also basically forced to turn into Naruto. Take, for example, the scene in the manga’s Tournament of Power where Goku says he’s always been a bad student. I think folks are right to point out that that doesn’t sound very much like the Goku of the original run—and frankly, what a Naruto thing to say. Or the scene in the latest film, where, absurdly, he comes down on meditation and plays second fiddle to the more perceptive Vegeta. That’s not Goku and Vegeta, that’s Naruto and Sasuke. I’m not normally one to quibble over such throwaway lines, and I wouldn’t here if I did not take them to be problematic symptoms of an important change in writing philosophy. Of course, under the ethos of the old DB—if Battle of Gods, say, had been written in 1995—Goku would have leapfrogged Beerus in the arc after his introduction. But Super’s midquel status enforces a situation in which Goku can’t do what he does best and can no longer, in effect, be written as himself: a character who, thanks to his drive and his talents, is always moving and causing the world to grow. He must struggle with UI as much as conceivably possible; he must overlook the benefits of meditation so that Whis still has something to teach him. As long as Goku hasn’t caught up to Beerus (and this he mustn’t be allowed, seemingly, for as long as Super is stretched), he must remain the bad student, the naive or callow trainee, the perpetual Genin. In the original run, he was rarely, if ever, portrayed this way.

On my revisits of Toriyama’s manga, in fact, I’m regularly struck, rather, by Goku’s general competence—by the more or less subtle ways Toriyama found to portray him as shrewder, more skilled, more perspicacious than everyone else. It’s important that, when Spopovitch and Yamu enter the story, it’s Goku who Toriyama has notice immediately that there’s something odd about the pair through a suggestive combination of reaction panels and dialogue. But one of my favorite examples of this is after Cell turns Perfect. Vegeta remains confident he can win even after they trade blows. Krillin does better and is able to intuitively feel the deep well of power Cell still has hidden just from being kicked with a fraction of that power. But the greatest degree of implied spiritual acuity is reserved, of course, for Goku: when Karin guesses that Cell is still a bit stronger than him, he replies unflappably that it’s just as he’d suspected—an evaluation he was apparently able to make at a distance, in absentia, with so little to go on, having just come out of the information dead-zone that is the Room of Spirit and Time. And it’s inevitable that examples like these, which are quite common in the manga, will add up to an accumulated impression of reliability and expertise; through such subtle means Toriyama manages to invest his central character with a general aura of competence and even, approaching the manga’s end, of wisdom. It all, in short, has the effect of making Goku just seem (and somewhat mysteriously) very cool. There’s something ultimately cooler about these examples, to me, than ostentatious displays like Perfected Blue or UI or even Goku whipping out Destruction in Super, awesome as they may feel in the moment. It’s the way the character is written on a scene-to-scene, or even a line-to-line, basis that matters most to me, it’s the way he reacts, it’s the dialogue he’s given, it’s the things he says. And perhaps the character could still be written that way, if Super’s narrative structure did not have, as I’ve tried to explain that it has, a determining effect on the characterization.

[Yuji]

Monumentous post. It is something I've noticed too and elaborated on other threads. One thing I'd also like to add is that what contributed to this ethereal essence of Goku's wisdom was the fact he was out of commission or absent for almost the entirety of part 2's arcs. Goku is always present now, and not only that, he loses successively. While Goku also lost his fair share of fights during the original series, he would come back with a victory more often than not. It is not uncommon for him to lose two (Beerus), three (Zamasu), four times (Jiren/Moro) to the same antagonist before eventually getting it down. While this displays his determination and tenacity, it also downplays his competency as a martial artist. After all, how many chances do you really need before you get it right? It feels like Luffy constantly going headfirst into a brick wall until he finally breaks it, not the Goku we knew from the original series who'd fail but make up for it next time. These rematches would often be broken up by other characters fighting the villain during the original run who'd often stall for time since when Goku got healthier/came back, everything would be okay.

[Zephyr]

I agree with a lot of what's being said here, but there are a few ideas I want to put some pressure on.

While it's true that Goku generally does have the nebulous and infinite goal of improving himself, in both the original run and in the Super TV anime there were some static goals that acted as temporary roadblocks on this otherwise endless road forward. Under Torishima's editorial oversight, Goku had the goal of winning the Tenkaichi Budokai. He lost in the grand finals twice before finally pulling out a win, and finally winning was one of the ways that he moved forward, and forced the world to expand around him.

So I don't think him taking several arcs to 'leapfrog' Beerus, rather than just one, or him losing to any given antagonist several times before pulling out a win in a single arc, is a serious problem for his character. He does still surpass these fighters eventually, and things continue to grow around him to accommodate this. The main change I see there is that it takes more stories, or more matches against the opponent in question within said stories, to result in this world-expansion. That may be different in pace from how it was handled in the original run, but I think it's the same in spirit.

As for rematches, I don't think they're always necessary. He never does get a rematch with Jackie Chun (Kame Sennin) or Cell, nor a decisive rematch with Vegeta. Getting an actual, successful, rematch from them doesn't ultimately matter because he doesn't need one in order to show that he's grown beyond them. He grows stronger than and/or defeats the people who were stronger than and defeated them. Thus, in the Tournament of Power, he 'leapfrogs' Beerus vicariously through completing the technique of the gods and defeating (albeit not eliminating) Geran, much in the same way he barely loses to Tenshinhan and defeats Piccolo to show that he's grown beyond Jackie Chun/Kame Sennin, much in the same way that he becomes a Super Saiyan, defeats Freeza, finds the better way to improve Super Saiyan, and attains Super Saiyan 3 to show that he's grown beyond Vegeta, much in the same way that he attains Super Saiyan 2 to show that he's grown beyond Cell (Super Saiyan 3 further reinforces this, as well).

[ChronoTwigger]

TL;DR: character driven arc vs plot driven arc.

Anyway, is not that such stuff happen by chance or mistake.
The shift in Super happened as Toriyama just wrote subjects on a call.
TOEI tapped on BoG success and set some border, identifying BoG "best" points. Beerus must be there, one transformation each arc, and other given points.
Toriyama was asked to write inside such frame, using BoG feeble premises (someone appear), some guidelines and no actual plan on lasting, ending or something even similar to a character arc. As Toei wasn't even aware of the serie lasting.
By this guidelines, you cannot produce any horizontal expansion. Every arc is self contained and the main drive (Beerus duel) is feeble as thin air, but can be ported from arc to arc, ideally to infinite.

Is not a matter of a character or plot driven narration. Inciting events are broadly the same. Is a matter that Super just spoil fans, feeding them about whatever can "taste as BoG", with no drive to begin with.
You identified the consequence, but not the cause.

[Faustus]

Thanks, Zephyr, pressure is very much welcome. Let me at least be clear that I don’t think intermediate static goals have no place in DB. But what isn’t static, in any case, is the overall relationship between the protagonist and the world and, as I argue, this elastic relationship between world and hero has conditioning effects on the character as he is written -- on his personality. The Tenkaichi Budokai is a valid point, and I partly accept it. But it is noteworthy that while he officially loses to Jackie Chun, this largely has to do with the mechanics of leg length, and he is quickly on to greater challenges (Tao Pai Pai, Baba’s Tournament, Piccolo…). His “world”—by which I mean not the earth in a physical sense but his horizons as a martial artist—was already rapidly expanding. It’s important that Goku isn’t Kame Sennin’s student until he wins the Tenkaichi Budokai. Original DB is a story that, because of its hero’s needs, was constantly getting bored of itself. Where we may importantly differ is on the significance of Goku taking several arcs to do what he would have once accomplished in one. When I write that Goku’s character is “always moving and causing the world to grow,” I take “always” to be a non-trivial, non-optional part of that. It’s precisely under those conditions of perpetual motion that Goku best discloses his authentic character, I think. And I think what Super accidentally reveals is that it may be an essential part of Goku’s character that he is nobody’s student for very long. I agree actual rematches are rarely necessary---almost never, I would say.

It is true that Super opens up the realm of new gods and new universes as a prospect from the start, but we largely remain in that realm --- conceptually --- for its duration. While Goku finally, seemingly, perhaps (?) surpassing Beerus may be satisfying as a resolution (particularly in the anime, where the story ends), this still doesn’t complete the movement I take to be constant through the original run, like a heartbeat, and to be deeply characteristic of it: its quickly looking past what has come before to set its sights on something new. To me, this movement is an essential part of Goku’s identity as a character, and of DB as a whole. I don’t think it’s accidental that in the versions of Super that have continued (the manga and the movies) we’re still stuck with opponents who are only vaguely, possibly, as strong as the gods. And Goku is still an inadequate student.

[kemuri07]

TO BE FAIR:

Toriyama has also admitted that he was pretty much making things up as he went along during Dragon Ball's best years.

I think OP has it correct: there's been a major tonal shift in regards to shounen, and Goku is in a really weird position. Not only is he a product of a bygon era, but Goku is likely the oldest shonen protaganist today. Which makes his "regression" stand out so much more. The problem is that Toriyama/Toei are attempting to write for an audience that might not have been old enough for Dragon Ball's hey-day, but were around for "The Big 3", where we did see that shift from impenetrable protagonist to characters who are far more uncertain of themselves. With the exception of One Piece, in which its central protagonist is probably the closest to being a Goku archtype, both Naruto and Bleach feature main characters attempting to navigate in a world in which they have no agency. This is because both Naruto and Bleach are written for teenagers who are old enough to know that they are no longer children, but not old enough in which they can actively participate in an adult world. I don't think it's any surprise that some of the more popular shounen out right now (JJK, Chainsaw Man, and Demon Slayer) follow this to a T.

But that's not Goku and tha's not Dragonbal.

There’s something ultimately cooler about these examples, to me, than ostentatious displays like Perfected Blue or UI or even Goku whipping out Destruction in Super, awesome as they may feel in the moment. It’s the way the character is written on a scene-to-scene, or even a line-to-line, basis that matters most to me, it’s the way he reacts, it’s the dialogue he’s given, it’s the things he says. And perhaps the character could still be written that way, if Super’s narrative structure did not have, as I’ve tried to explain that it has, a determining effect on the characterization.

Agree with this wholeheartedly.

[LightBing]

The major problem with Super is being a midquel, which plays as if everyone suddenly gets amnesia at the 26th Tenkaichi Budokai.

Goku was always changing in tandem with his goal of continuous improvement. Yet his most salient trait since the Cell arc, his succession/the next generation, is ignored. We know Goku goes off to train Oob...

While this doesn't need to be a main struggle it's non-existence breaks continuity; with Goku feeling like a cloistered character like most of the cast with the notable exception of Vegeta.

This is all exacerbated by the characters being written by various writers, many which unfortunately don't grasp what makes them be.

You're absolutely correct that Super doesn't feel like Dragon Ball.
Dragon Ball at his core is always moving forward, Super with the exception of BoG just wants to go back, to be an highlight reel.
Super is Trunks constantly getting in his time machine visiting murky timelines; he even got stuck in one.

[theherodjl]

Toriyama is the George Lucas of Shonen manga: His story was clearly based on something prior(Journey To The West, Kung Fu movies) as Lucas' story was(Flash Gordon, samurai films), and they both decided to change things up once their respective revivals(BOG, ROF, DBS/The Prequel Trilogy, The Clone Wars) of their series' happened. I think that Toriyama having a disconnect from how he originally portrayed things was just inevitable, especially since he has never been a lore master and his exact recollection of his 80's/90's creative mindset is probably not up to par.

[Xeogran]

Super with the exception of BoG just wants to go back, to be an highlight reel.

BoG is the story that moved the series back and made us stay there for 10+ years..
Yes it brought new cast and new form, but it could have been done post EoZ and still feel the same, except with actual tension.

[LightBing]

Super with the exception of BoG just wants to go back, to be an highlight reel.

BoG is the story that moved the series back and made us stay there for 10+ years..
Yes it brought new cast and new form, but it could have been done post EoZ and still feel the same, except with actual tension.

The writers made us stay there, not the story.
Having BoG after the timeskip means losing most of the cast, since they're old and retired.

The better solution would have been a re-write of the ending. But putting BoG and a few innocuous stories would have been fine to enrich EoZ while saying our goodbyes to some of the cast.

Anyway, at this point I doubt we'll ever leave this decade.

[Xeogran]

Having BoG after the timeskip means losing most of the cast, since they're old and retired.

Who exactly? Krillin, 18, Tien and Yamcha all can still fight even post EoZ. Bulma would still be a smart scientist, now smarter than ever with age, much like her Future-self.

And we would gain the addition of many new characters too.

[LightBing]

Having BoG after the timeskip means losing most of the cast, since they're old and retired.

Who exactly? Krillin, 18, Tien and Yamcha all can still fight even post EoZ. Bulma would still be a smart scientist, now smarter than ever with age, much like her Future-self.

And we would gain the addition of many new characters too.

It's more about the design, it was a conscious decision to age them. Sure they can all still perform but Toriyama designed them to be in the background.
It's not a coincidence Kuririn went bald again in Super.

[kemuri07]

Having BoG after the timeskip means losing most of the cast, since they're old and retired.

Who exactly? Krillin, 18, Tien and Yamcha all can still fight even post EoZ. Bulma would still be a smart scientist, now smarter than ever with age, much like her Future-self.

And we would gain the addition of many new characters too.

But they’re all significantly older. Like Krillin straight up looking like an elderly Japanese man by the time GT hits. Super gives Toei some leeway to keep the characters as close to their Z counterparts as possible.


This is why Super will never go past EoZ.