If faced with the choice of sacrificing the franchise's massive popularity

[GhostEmperorX]

In exchange for the following:
-Proper official restorations of the series with original quality audio
-Accurate translations being the standard proliferated throughout
-Actually good & reasonable BGM releases
-Massively reduced streams of misinformation
-Competent handling across the board (including sensible decisions about who to give the license to)
-More focus on the original series
-Not constantly trying to re-package and present the "Z" anime in particular or elements thereof as being "new" rather than being of its time period
And the list goes on...

How many (barring one particular user who's mentioned it before) would take it?

After quite a while of considering it, as well as from what I've seen elsewhere, I would pretty much go for it. Because it fits the description of a monkey's paw situation, and one I don't think I've seen most anything else approaching.

(Also, what would be included in the sacrifice is any new installments of the franchise post-90's.)

[Kaboom]

(Also, what would be included in the sacrifice is any new installments of the franchise post-90's.)

Just point me to the magic button that makes this happen and I'll slam it with the force of a thousand moon-wrecking Kamehamehas.

[JulieYBM]

Shueisha doesn't pay me enough to care about the franchise's popularity.

[90sDBZ]

I for one wouldn't sacrifice the popularity of the franchise. Its had such a positive impact on the lives of the many fans, which obviously wouldn't have been as widespread had it not become popular.

There's been stories of people who literally turned their lives around after watching DB. That's not something to be undervalued.

Plus it just feels good seeing others getting hyped over the same stuff I like.

[Shaddy]

Popular culture is plastic. It comes and goes with the will of the wind and is in no way a thing worth "protecting", as if there's even a way to do that. If Dragon Ball wasn't the success it was, other properties would be. It's just inevitable that people are going to make stuff, because people like making stuff regardless of whether they know it will succeed.

What's hilarious is that you throw every post-GT followup in there at the end like it's a tiny side-note. The question of "would you sacrifice most of modern Dragon Ball in exchange for a better preservation and presentation of the original series" is WAY more interesting than a "popularity" that is entirely socially-constructed. Hell, there's an argument to be made that the problems the series face exist in part because of its popularity, and paradoxically, doing things right from the start may have actually improved its overall success.

There's just a lot of assumptions being made here about what fan priorities are, I'm afraid

[Yuji]

What's hilarious is that you throw every post-GT followup in there at the end like it's a tiny side-note. The question of "would you sacrifice most of modern Dragon Ball in exchange for a better preservation and presentation of the original series" is WAY more interesting than a "popularity" that is entirely socially-constructed.

This is basically the question being asked here and my answer would have to be no. Fans are already doing a great job of preserving the series with unofficial releases and translations. A big and dedicated fanbase will treat a series better than most official shareholders would.

I wouldn't want to lose out on modern releases, or even some fan projects that have come as a result no doubt of the series' popularity. This would also have to encompass removing all the merchandise and videogames that exist only because Dragon Ball is the biggest anime IP.

[Shaddy]

This is basically the question being asked here and my answer would have to be no. Fans are already doing a great job of preserving the series with unofficial releases and translations. A big and dedicated fanbase will treat a series better than most official shareholders would.

Are you serious? It was a total fluke that the broadcast audio was ever recovered, there still isn't a good color correction for Z, all of the localizations still have a myriad of problems and the show has been over for 27 years. Everything we've got has been the result of clawing and scrambling to squeeze even a modicum of competence from any of DB's corporate owners. The damn site we're talking about this on exists in large part due to how bad the disconnect between Japanese DB and the west was for a really long time, and even now there's still a ton of mistakes.

Whether that's worth the post-90s Dragon Ball franchise not existing, I dunno. But if something never existed, I'm not going to have missed it. The only reason that the series got even a shred of the preservation it did from fans was because the corporate handlers of the franchise did such a bad job.

[goku the krump dancer]

Believe it or not I think I like things the way they are, in particular in regards to the massive popularity. With Dragon Ball being one of my favorite things ever, I take pride in it being multi-generationaly (is that a word?) popular amongst people and not just in the US and Japan either but Latin America and Eastern Europe as well and MANY many other places i'm sure.

I've had instances where I spoke with people from other countries about DB and when they referred to certain things they said it in how it was pronounced in their specific dub of the show. One of my old coworkers was from Turkey and he mentioned how he was a big fan of "San Goku" or how I had an old business partner from Mexico who said "Ve-geh-ta" was an asshole lol.

Things like that make me smile a little more on the inside and I dont think i'm willing to sacrifice that just so we can get a home release where the sky is the right shade of blue, the edges of Goku's hair are in full view and we get next episode previews.

[Majin Buu]

In exchange for the following:
-Proper official restorations of the series with original quality audio
-Accurate translations being the standard proliferated throughout
-Actually good & reasonable BGM releases
-Massively reduced streams of misinformation
-Competent handling across the board (including sensible decisions about who to give the license to)
-More focus on the original series
-Not constantly trying to re-package and present the "Z" anime in particular or elements thereof as being "new" rather than being of its time period

I like to think that in some alternate universe the franchise became popular with all of this stuff in place- Because an actually competent English dubbing company scored the rights based on merit instead of a no-name company with zero dubbing experience getting it because of nepotism- And because the Japanese IP holders actually gave a damn about the English version being faithful to the original Japanese version and about preserving the series in general.

That being said, I would gladly sacrifice the franchise's massive popularity in a heartbeat for a new status quo based around all of that since all of that implies we would live in a world where there was no radically altered English dub to massively fracture the Western fanbase. Yeah, there would likely still be complaints about Nozawa's Goku from dub only folks and arguments over which voice cast in general is better would still happen; but there wouldn't be these massive disconnects over stuff that pertains to the series' very nature (tone, characterization, story, etc.).

[MasenkoHA]

Would I sacrifice the series popularity for a quality affordable home video release with broadcast Japanes audio, proper aspect ratio, restoration that doesn't ruin the footage? (Quality bgm release and a good translated English dub would just be a bonus) Yes absolutely but also

Shueisha doesn't pay me enough to care about the franchise's popularity.

This is the quote. None of Dragon Ball's IP holders pays me to care if the series is popular or not. It does nothing for me if its global kids anime phenomenon or anime cult classic.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

It's a great question, kinda reminds me of that time someone asked would the series have been as successful as it was if the Faulconer Productions score was the original and Shunsuke Kikuchi was the replacement soundtrack for the English dub, as the likelihood of both scenarios happening would have been incredibly slim.

The way I see it the popularity of Dragon Ball Z in particular is a big reason Crunchyroll and Funimation before them didn't think they needed to try give it the respect it needed because people ended up buying the existing home releases anyway. Ditto Viz and the manga, although their adaptation practices were more faithful. On the other hand the series is so relatable, easy to follow and marketable it's probably inevitable it was going to have the massive worldwide success it had. I don't think it's likely the series would have ever been a niche property with a cult following because the characters, action and world are all so likeable and charming. I'd imagine more accurate dubs, manga translations and releases would have only helped it's popularity.

Having said that if I could have the choice to live in a world where Dragon Ball somehow didn't have the success it had, I'd probably say no, for the reasons 90sDBZ outlined. It helped me in my darkest times when I was bullied and gave me hope to believe in myself enough to carry on no matter what the obstacle, and I'd hate for anyone who became a fan and had a similar experience to have been deprived of that.

[Adamant]

Hell, there's an argument to be made that the problems the series face exist in part because of its popularity

A hundred times this.

I don't see a single downside to this "sacrifice".

[GhostEmperorX]

Interesting replies, I decided to wait and think carefully before coming back with some of my own responses to them.
To get this out of the way though, some of the replies certainly put into perspective why I chose to refer to it as a sacrifice, since it involves giving up something of value, but this time in exchange for another.
I also mentioned the subject in such a way that would cover just about everything that has come about as a result of the popularity and dominance of the series, hence the example of giving up modern DB post-90's (not even Kai or anything else).

And critically, I made sure to only cover the official side of things, as they (Toei, Nippon Columbia, etc) are the primary reason that the problems I listed are even problems in the first place (where they would not ordinarily be given other companies or IP's). Some of this even being independent of (and predating) the US side.

If Dragon Ball wasn't the success it was, other properties would be.

This in particular is what I think whenever the prospect of its positive impact on the lives of others is mentioned, as among some of the replies here. It's possible that some other media property may have filled that void in some way, and while I don't seek to diminish said impact, I say a lot of this knowing that there aren't really any 100% positive or negative situations for almost anything in life.

What's hilarious is that you throw every post-GT followup in there at the end like it's a tiny side-note. The question of "would you sacrifice most of modern Dragon Ball in exchange for a better preservation and presentation of the original series" is WAY more interesting than a "popularity" that is entirely socially-constructed.

Mostly to give some perspective on what would have to be given up along with it, since it led to modern DB being a thing for the most part, as well as sustaining it.

A big and dedicated fanbase will treat a series better than most official shareholders would.

I mean, when you do have official companies treating IP's properly (aka just about everyone in the same field who isn't Toei past a certain point), fans usually don't have to lift a finger. Whether that's with audio, colour correction, etc. The broadcast audio is ultimately second hand and has its own issues that wouldn't exist with official releases containing original audio masters.

I like to think that in some alternate universe the franchise became popular with all of this stuff in place- Because an actually competent English dubbing company scored the rights based on merit instead of a no-name company with zero dubbing experience getting it because of nepotism- And because the Japanese IP holders actually gave a damn about the English version being faithful to the original Japanese version and about preserving the series in general.

That by proxy was what I was implying as well, its effects on other areas like the state of the fanbase. Though some of these issues happened even before the greatest mistake of 1995 so they're all on Toei & others on that side of things too (such as Harmony Gold of all people being the first ones to get the license).

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know it is frustrating to see Dragon Ball treated in such a subpar manner... but I think this way of thinking is INCREDIBLY selfish. People here are saying "Oh the people who want Dragon Ball to be popular are just atention whores who want THEIR franchise to be the most popular thing.The franchise not being popular is no harm at all." What about the people it made happy? What about the people it inspired? What about the people who suffered and pulled through because of it? They are cheap collateral damage done by Funimation that should be done away with? They dont matter?

To be honest, I think the premise isnt actually so bad, give one thing for another. This is sound. But this is a false binary. In Latin America Dragon Ball was dubbed well, respectfully, other than some mistakes and mistranslations its one the best dubs for the franchise. The idea that's either Funimation whoring out the show or more "respectful and principled obscurity". No. Dragon Ball would have been just as succesful had it been dubbed respectfully.

And before you say "Oh I didnt say that! That's a strawman!" I admit. It is. It is a showing of what happens when you take your argument to the extreme, I am hoping people see this and examine if they REALLY want to think that way.

And if you want to actually give Dragon Ball the treatment it deserves you should try and do it. AB Groupe used to be "French 4Kids" and now the make the best releases of the show. How? The company got taken over by actual fans.

[Majin Buu]

What about the people it made happy? What about the people it inspired? What about the people who suffered and pulled through because of it? They are cheap collateral damage done by Funimation that should be done away with? They dont matter?

Like Shaddy said: If it wasn't Dragon Ball, some other massively successful property would have come along to fill the void for those people.

Who's to say those people wouldn't have found some other series that ended up leaving an impression on them? Or hell, who's to say they wouldn't have still discovered Dragon Ball anyway? I think it's silly to act like those people not getting the help they needed through media is the only possible outcome of this scenario when it's a hypothetical situation (And acting like those who would prefer that hypothetical status quo are somehow in the wrong for wanting that is a bit extreme).

To be honest, I think the premise isnt actually so bad, give one thing for another. This is sound. But this is a false binary. In Latin America Dragon Ball was dubbed well, respectfully, other than some mistakes and mistranslations its one the best dubs for the franchise. The idea that's either Funimation whoring out the show or more "respectful and principled obscurity". No. Dragon Ball would have been just as succesful had it been dubbed respectfully.

The way I see it, the Spanish dub would more or less exist in the same state in this hypothetical alternate world since it actually was a good dub.

And before you say "Oh I didnt say that! That's a strawman!" I admit. It is. It is a showing of what happens when you take your argument to the extreme, I am hoping people see this and examine if they REALLY want to think that way.

I think you're taking a simple thought experiment way too seriously.

[Cure Dragon 255]

What about the people it made happy? What about the people it inspired? What about the people who suffered and pulled through because of it? They are cheap collateral damage done by Funimation that should be done away with? They dont matter?

Like Shaddy said: If it wasn't Dragon Ball, some other anime property (or some other property in general) would have come along to fill the void for those people.

Who's to say those people wouldn't have found some other series that ended up leaving an impression on them? Or who's to say they wouldn't have still discovered Dragon Ball anyway? I think it's silly to act like those people not getting the help they needed through media is the only possible outcome of this scenario when it's a hypothetical situation (And acting like those who would prefer that hypothetical status quo are somehow in the wrong for wanting that isn't any better).



I think you're taking a simple thought experiment way too seriously.

Sure, but the premise of the thread is PRECISELY doing away with this popularity and reach Dragon Ball had. The very premise of the thread is to wonder if these NEVER got into Dragon Ball. It's not "Would a faithful dub be as popular." but rather doing away with the popularity.
I know this is just a simple thought experiment and I know people hate when this way of thinking gets called out as "Gatekeeping" but if this isnt then nothing is.

I know the Latin American Spanish dub would probably have been the same. But this "Get rid of the undesirable fanbase" sounds a REALLY wrong note.

And if I am extreme then so is this desire to get rid of a fanbase just because one feels Dragon Ball should be in "respectful and principled obscurity".

[Majin Buu]

Sure, but the premise of the thread is PRECISELY doing away with this popularity and reach Dragon Ball had. The very premise of the thread is to wonder if these NEVER got into Dragon Ball.It's not "Would a faithful dub be as popular." but rather doing away with the popularity.

I didn't say anything about a faithful dub being popular in my response to your post so I'm not sure what you're responding to here. The closest I got to anything like that was saying the Spanish dub would be largely the same in this hypothetical situation since it was an actual good dub.

I know the Latin American Spanish dub would probably have been the same. But this "Get rid of the undesirable fanbase" sounds a REALLY wrong note.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about wanting to get rid of "undesirable" fanbases.

And if I am extreme then so is this desire to get rid of a fanbase just because one feels Dragon Ball should be in "respectful and principled obscurity".

You are being extreme, because again, I never said anything about wanting to get rid of fanbases.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

If it wasn't Dragon Ball, some other massively successful property would have come along to fill the void for those people.

We don't know that though. Dragon Ball appeals to people the way it does for specific reasons - the artstyle (unique to Japan), the theme of never giving up (sure you can find it in other media but I would argue its not as profound as it is in battle shounen, and it was Dragon Ball that inspired generations of anime and manga like it) and the iconic moments (again other media may have it, but I'd struggle to think of much in animation that compares to Goku punching through Piccolo Daimao, the first Super Saiyan transformation, the Father-Son-Kamehameha, etc).

And sure you can say as a huge Dragon Ball fan I'm biased, but we can say quite confidently a large portion of anime fans credit Dragon Ball as their introduction to the medium, so there's probably a high chance a lot of them wouldn't have got into it if they weren't exposed to Dragon Ball. Would a certain percentage have got into anime through other series? Sure, but it's unlikely as many people would have got into Dragon Ball through other anime, because, again Dragon Ball inspired many of its contemporaries like Naruto, Bleach, etc that were other peoples introductions.

who's to say they wouldn't have still discovered Dragon Ball anyway?

I think most fans still would have. Kai had a faithful English dub and it was successful on Nicktoons. Granted it didn't do as well as Z did on Toonami with a less accurate dub, but that's because the novelty was gone and it was far easier for people to discover online or through cheap DVD sets in the 2010s than it was in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Back to the thread question we'd never have to sacrifice the franchises popularity. Things would have likely been the same, albeit with perhaps a bit less misinformation, and people would have still been touched by Dragon Ball either way.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Sure, but the premise of the thread is PRECISELY doing away with this popularity and reach Dragon Ball had. The very premise of the thread is to wonder if these NEVER got into Dragon Ball.It's not "Would a faithful dub be as popular." but rather doing away with the popularity.

I didn't say anything about a faithful dub being popular in my response to your post so I'm not sure what you're responding to here. The closest I got to anything like that was saying the Spanish dub would be largely the same in this hypothetical situation since it was an actual good dub.

I know the Latin American Spanish dub would probably have been the same. But this "Get rid of the undesirable fanbase" sounds a REALLY wrong note.

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about wanting to get rid of "undesirable" fanbases.

And if I am extreme then so is this desire to get rid of a fanbase just because one feels Dragon Ball should be in "respectful and principled obscurity".

You are being extreme, because again, I never said anything about wanting to get rid of fanbases.

Okay I am glad you arent. I just wanted to point to the dangers of these way of thinking when people dont realize what they are saying. Not you in particular but others.

[GhostEmperorX]

But this "Get rid of the undesirable fanbase" sounds a REALLY wrong note.

And if I am extreme then so is this desire to get rid of a fanbase just because one feels Dragon Ball should be in "respectful and principled obscurity".

To be clear, as the fanbase really has no actual impact on the initial production level and didn't actually have one during the revival period (minus, of course, supporting the content that was put out), a lot of my points referred to what it is the main heads of the franchise are typically up to, like all the post-GT series, installments, and other content.

One example is the Kai recut (something that hasn't happened for anything else at all), where it seems like it's one of those things that got in the way of a possible proper remaster effort for the series (since they were deriving footage from the Z series itself along with some redraws here & there). And we've seen the effects of that unwillingness to go through with it even in the Daima trailer, where they really didn't have any good footage of OG DB to display.
That's one of the main points that really needed correction.

Ultimately the premise concerns the series itself first & foremost, and I posited the question as a "sacrifice" because, as mentioned in the OP, the popularity & success of the franchise and just about everything else that came along as a result of that seems to have come at the cost of other objectively good & significant aspects (consistent, orderly presentation not least among these). And a lot of these issues were completely avoidable even taking into account the time period it was made in.

It's also generally not being treated in a manner that acknowledges that it's part of said time period unlike material of the same era.

Dragon Ball inspired many of its contemporaries like Naruto, Bleach, etc that were other peoples introductions.

In the interest of accuracy it would be good to note that contemporaries would be the likes of Saint Seiya or FoTNS (in terms of Shonen manga/anime series), then YYH which came out a while after the Z series began. One Piece, Naruto, etc would be the next gen series (made by people who got into DB at a young age).