How skilled are Dragon ball characters as martial artist?

[dbs fanboy]

So yesterday i got in... a pretty annoying debate against Batman fans (never doing that again) about how would Goku's skills compare against the Dark Knight, both as a fighter and a Martial artist.

Which lead to an incredibly annoying discussion in which i noticed and realized that a lot of people nowadays really underestimate the skills of characters like Goku and seriously think that without powers they are just brawlers (which proves to me that they haven't watched the show, at all )

But that left me thinking, what total of skills do db characters consistently show? And i don't mean just feats (like Goku countering Hit's pressure points and time skip), but real artial arts moves identfiable on the hand to hand portions of Dragon Ball fights.

I've heard people mention Kick Boxin, Xiaoling Kung Fu, and Muay Thai, so i wondered hey, dragon ball fans, specially those more versed in martial arts, what is your opinion on the subject?

And what would you think would be the real life equivalents of Ultra Instinct? without reducing the concept (since i've seen people say it's just muscle memory and forget the entire state of mind the characters have to be in).

[FoolsGil]

In the OG manga, Goku and Krillin as kids were already close to superhuman as early as the 21st Budokai. And that's as basic as you get when it comes to skills. Whereas In the DC universe Bruce is basically peak humanity. The strongest, fastest, most agile, most intelligent, yet technically still a normal human being.

So strip Bruce of his gadgets and put him in a room with Goku at 12 years old. I'd probably give it to Bruce. After that, no contest. By the 22nd Budokai, the characters are past superhuman abilities. Bruce wouldn't be able to keep up without prep time, a lot of money, Superman, or just a good ol deus ex machina.

[Zephyr]

The question in the title is tricky because Dragon Ball is a fantasy martial arts story pulling from East Asian mythology, in which the "powers" are simply high level martial arts. From the Wuxia Thread:

...the martial arts skills detailed and displayed in Wuxia fiction is ANYTHING but rooted in reality. Rather its all derived from very ancient myths and folktales about the concept of Qi and Qigong. Or Chi and Chi Kung. Or Ki and Kikou.

Kikou is of course a real life martial arts concept, and in real world terms it is simply a form of breathing/meditative exercise that allows one better control and balance of their body, movement, and muscles. In the martial arts fantasy genre of Wuxia however, it is the source of most of the characters sky-splitting, earth-rending kung fu abilities.

In both Wuxia and real life kung fu, martial arts exercises and techniques can generally be broken down into two main categories: external (Wai, represented by Yang) and internal (Nei, represented by Yin).

External kung fu is about what you'd expect: it focuses primarily on the tangibly physical (building/improving muscles, tendons, reflexes, flexibility, etc) and concerns itself with techniques such as basic punches and kicks, grappling, etc. Things that any martial artist of any school or any skill level is bound to learn about right off the bat. This sort of training builds a fighter's personal power (or Li).

Internal however, is where the real meat lies. Internal martial arts is the training and honing of a fighter's focus, breathing, awareness, and things of that nature. In real life martial arts, internal martial arts training helps improve a fighter's psychology, patience, understanding of their surroundings in the heat of a fight, and can even help with SOME physical attributes (to an extent), particularly stamina and resistance to pain.

In the fantasy genre of Wuxia however, internal martial arts training is something profoundly more spiritual and the key to unlocking the (often literal) power of a god. In Wuxia, internal martial arts training is the primary means (shy of some sort of plot-specific magical ability-granting weapon/artifact/MacGuffin) by which the fighters of the Wulin community build their Ki (spiritual power).

In the opening post the "hand to hand" portions of fights is specified, so in light of the above quote, I guess we could rephrase the question as "how good are Dragon Ball characters' external kung fu?" From there the best I can answer is "pretty good I think?", but I wouldn't know which panels to point to in order to settle a Vs. Debate. I also don't know how easy it is to simply decouple the quality of their external kung fu from the quality of their internal kung fu, since they would appear to support one another, but I'm not a martial artist, so I can't say for sure.

As for Ultra Instinct, it seems to be based on "Mushin".

[theherodjl]

Fro what I know, the actual fighting styles of DB characters are just a myriad of moves & techniques taken from martial arts films, not surprising as Akira Toriyama is a fan of the genre. They could be seen as a hybrid of Kung Fu, Karate, Muay Thai, and some others depending on the situation; "Space MMA" if you will. IMO, Batman probably would be a better martial artist than most DB characters(except UI users/Roshi with his style similar to UI), purely in the sense of hand-to-hand combat as he doesn't have any superpowers and has spent his free time learning virtually every fighting style he can.

[Zephyr]

This actually has me thinking. I'm not well versed in deeper metaphysical and cosmic fabric of the DC universe. Is there anything resembling "qi/chi/ki" in the sense that East Asian mythology shows martial artists as being able to tap into and weaponize for superhuman feats? Are there any martial artist characters in DC whose abilities would show this to be the case?

I'm assuming there aren't. Because if there were, then the most skilled martial artists would be able to use their ki for flight and the like. Since Batman is an insanely gifted martial artist, I take it that his inability to perform bukujutsu suggests that it's not possible to do in DC's universe. Yet, in Dragon Ball's universe it is. Were Bruce Wayne raised in the Dragon World, perhaps he would have been able to master internal kung fu to the degree that the various Earthlings in Dragon Ball had. Likewise, were Son Goku raised in DC's universe, it wouldn't have been possible for him to fly and fire ki blasts, as the fabric of reality there simply doesn't allow for people to tap into the life force of the cosmos in such a way.

[theherodjl]

In DC, there is Karate Kid, a human from the future who has mastered every conceivable martial art(including alien ones) and was able to actually physically tangle with Superboy in sparring matches. I do believe that this is the concept of Chi/Ki in DC's universe, allowing even an ordinary human to reach Kryptonian levels from martial arts mastery.

[Zephyr]

In DC, there is Karate Kid, a human from the future who has mastered every conceivable martial art(including alien ones) and was able to actually physically tangle with Superboy in sparring matches. I do believe that this is the concept of Chi/Ki in DC's universe, allowing even an ordinary human to reach Kryptonian levels from martial arts mastery.

If that's the case, then Batman has no excuse.

[Kamiccolo9]

This actually has me thinking. I'm not well versed in deeper metaphysical and cosmic fabric of the DC universe. Is there anything resembling "qi/chi/ki" in the sense that East Asian mythology shows martial artists as being able to tap into and weaponize for superhuman feats? Are there any martial artist characters in DC whose abilities would show this to be the case?

I'm assuming there aren't. Because if there were, then the most skilled martial artists would be able to use their ki for flight and the like. Since Batman is an insanely gifted martial artist, I take it that his inability to perform bukujutsu suggests that it's not possible to do in DC's universe. Yet, in Dragon Ball's universe it is. Were Bruce Wayne raised in the Dragon World, perhaps he would have been able to master internal kung fu to the degree that the various Earthlings in Dragon Ball had. Likewise, were Son Goku raised in DC's universe, it wouldn't have been possible for him to fly and fire ki blasts, as the fabric of reality there simply doesn't allow for people to tap into the life force of the cosmos in such a way.

Dunno about DC, but Marvel has Iron Fist, which is basically wuxia film-style chi distilled into an American comic book.

[LoganForkHands73]

With either the Marvel or DC Universes, if you ever ask the question "does *concept X* exist in some form", the answer will almost always be "yes".

[Kunzait_83]

This actually has me thinking. I'm not well versed in deeper metaphysical and cosmic fabric of the DC universe. Is there anything resembling "qi/chi/ki" in the sense that East Asian mythology shows martial artists as being able to tap into and weaponize for superhuman feats? Are there any martial artist characters in DC whose abilities would show this to be the case?

I'm assuming there aren't. Because if there were, then the most skilled martial artists would be able to use their ki for flight and the like. Since Batman is an insanely gifted martial artist, I take it that his inability to perform bukujutsu suggests that it's not possible to do in DC's universe. Yet, in Dragon Ball's universe it is. Were Bruce Wayne raised in the Dragon World, perhaps he would have been able to master internal kung fu to the degree that the various Earthlings in Dragon Ball had. Likewise, were Son Goku raised in DC's universe, it wouldn't have been possible for him to fly and fire ki blasts, as the fabric of reality there simply doesn't allow for people to tap into the life force of the cosmos in such a way.

Believe it or not, there is a character in DC named Kong Kenan, who is, I shit you not, the Chinese Superman of the DCU.



His powers are in large part traditional Qi/Ki/Chi Manipulation used in such a way as to mimic the powers of Kal-El/Superman. Apparently he was given some of Superman's Qi/Ki/Chi, and as such now has the ability to tap into Kryptonian Qi/Ki/Chi, which he uses to fight a never-ending battle for Truth, Justice and... the Daoist Way I suppose?

But yeah, insofar as I know of, Kenan is probably the most notable DC Comics character who uses just straight up Wuxia-tier levels of Chi manipulation to superhuman levels.

And as noted, Marvel of course has always had Iron Fist, as well as Shang Chi.

If Western DB fandom more broadly had any remote interest in DB's Chinese/Wuxia/Daoist roots, all the Goku vs Superman discourse would instead revolve around Goku vs Kong Kenan's Superman.

Also worth noting that a lot of DC characters who are very martial arts-heavy - such as Lady Shiva, Kirigi, Cassandra Cain, and yes, even good old Batman himself - do technically use Chi/Qi/Ki manipulation, and are noted in numerous comics explicitly as using it... except they use it in the "grounded/real world" context of deep breath control to increase their strength, speed, and stamina to peak regular human/non-supernatural degrees. So nothing that would even remotely enable any of them to go toe to toe with the likes of Goku and co.

[Zephyr]

Dunno about DC, but Marvel has Iron Fist, which is basically wuxia film-style chi distilled into an American comic book.

Yeah I knew about Iron Fist, which made me wonder if DC had an equivalent. And it apparently has multiple!

Also worth noting that a lot of DC characters who are very martial arts-heavy - such as Lady Shiva, Kirigi, Cassandra Cain, and yes, even good old Batman himself - do technically use Chi/Qi/Ki manipulation, and are noted in numerous comics explicitly as using it... except they use it in the "grounded/real world" context of deep breath control to increase their strength, speed, and stamina to peak regular human/non-supernatural degrees. So nothing that would even remotely enable any of them to go toe to toe with the likes of Goku and co.

Which I guess is my point. If it's possible in the DC universe for an otherwise normal human to, with enough training, discipline, and skill, use Chi/Qi/Ki manipulation in a way that transcends the usual "grounded/real world" deep breathing stuff, then Batman's overall not as great of a martial artist as he could be or is often made out to be. A very skilled one, to be sure, but he could transcend "peak humanity" if only he would.....well, this actually raises another question: if it's logistically possible for someone like Batman to train in such a way as to perform superhuman feats, what's actually stopping him? Is it a lack of knowledge? A lack of requisite spiritual beliefs? A "skill issue"?

[Lionel]

Isn't it mentioned somewhere that Bruce, at some point during this training, went to a monastery out in Korea to learn about martial arts? He's probably been all over the world, learning, however. I would imagine the concept of Nei and the internal aspect of martial arts isn't lost on him; this is a man who thrives on using the environment and psychological tactics to unnerve his opponents when he can, environmental awareness being a trait of Nei, right? Everything sans the Ultra Instinct state would likely be familiar to him and I imagine he's someone who could learn UI or devise a counter to it if push came to shove.

[Kunzait_83]

Isn't it mentioned somewhere that Bruce, at some point during this training, went to a monastery out in Korea to learn about martial arts? He's probably been all over the world, learning, however. I would imagine the concept of Nei and the internal aspect of martial arts isn't lost on him; this is a man who thrives on using the environment and psychological tactics to unnerve his opponents when he can, environmental awareness being a trait of Nei, right? Everything sans the Ultra Instinct state would likely be familiar to him and I imagine he's someone who could learn UI or devise a counter to it if push came to shove.

Yes, I mentioned this earlier, that its long been Bat-canon that Bruce Wayne learned about Qigong/Ki Control during his globe-trotting martial arts training: albeit he learned it on a "real world" level (i.e. utilizing deep breathing control to exercise his internal muscles, which heightens his overall endurance, strength, agility, etc to a high but decidedly non-supernatural degree), rather than a supernatural/fantasy level (i.e. tapping into metaphysical spiritual energy to move like The Flash, hit and fly like Superman, and fire laser beams from his hands, etc).

Zephyr's question is WHY didn't Bruce Wayne ever learn about how to utilize Chi/Ki/Qi on a supernatural/fantasy level if its possible to do so in the DC Universe.

So my answer to that is:

Which I guess is my point. If it's possible in the DC universe for an otherwise normal human to, with enough training, discipline, and skill, use Chi/Qi/Ki manipulation in a way that transcends the usual "grounded/real world" deep breathing stuff, then Batman's overall not as great of a martial artist as he could be or is often made out to be. A very skilled one, to be sure, but he could transcend "peak humanity" if only he would.....well, this actually raises another question: if it's logistically possible for someone like Batman to train in such a way as to perform superhuman feats, what's actually stopping him? Is it a lack of knowledge? A lack of requisite spiritual beliefs? A "skill issue"?

As I said earlier: the only DC Universe character that I'm aware of who utilizes Qigong/Ki control to supernatural/superpowered degrees is the "Chinese Superman" Kong Kenan: and he acquired those abilities not through training or diligence, but simply because he was given some of Superman's Kryptonian Ki.

Not to say that there AREN'T any DC Universe characters out there who utilize supernatural Ki control and attained it through actual training... but if there are, I'm at least not aware of them.

So I have two possible answers to this question:

1) There as of yet has not been a DC Universe character who has achieved supernatural Ki manipulation through martial arts training

or 2) If there has been such characters, then it may well be - knowing Batman/Bruce Wayne's character - simply a lack of spiritual belief on Batman's part

Marvel, for its own part, definitely has far more notable characters than DC does who are trained martial arts superheroes who can use supernatural Ki control/Qigong to tap into traditional Wuxia superhuman fighting abilities.

[theherodjl]

When it comes down to it, I think Bruce's application of martial arts is not to build his Chi/Ki like other fighters do in fiction, but to just learn the actual fighting moves and use them whenever he needs to fight. That's sorta the philosophy that Roshi literally spat at in early DB, when Krillin asked if he could just teach them "moves"...and it instantly brought out Roshi's ire. Characters in DB and other martial arts stories don't just learn moves, they learn the power within that allows them to use such moves with the strength, speed, efficiency, and precision that they do. They learn the discipline, patience, and the endurance that is needed to overcome their limits through improving their Ki. Batman, on the other hand, doesn't really need to improve himself that way as he has about a dozen or more allies with all the superpowers that anyone could ever need to help him take on wickedness. It might be interesting if Batman actually did choose to improve himself in that way, but that's probably something for an Elseworld story.

[Bloodthroe]

I actually got into that same argument with a Batman fan 10 years ago. "Batman has learned more martial arts styles, therefore he is more skilled," I believe he said. To that, I replied Goku was said to have displayed the most skillful martial arts the World tournament had ever seen and he has learned martial arts styles, from gods, that don't even exist on Earth.

I am reminded, though, of what Roshi said to Goku and Krillin as kids. He told them he had no fancy moves to teach them. He explained that the basic moves required for fighting were hones through their exercises.

I'm also reminded of a quote from Bruce Lee, who said he is not afraid of the man who has learned 1000 kicks. He is afraid of the man who trained the same kick 1000 times. These repetitive maneuvers hone precision and instinct, and reduce the time wasted through thinking.

So if we describe fighting skill as not being about knowledge accumulated, but being about time spent hone technique, I think we can argue that Goku is more skilled and spends more time training his technique than Batman does.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I'm also reminded of a quote from Bruce Lee, who said he is not afraid of the man who has learned 1000 kicks. He is afraid of the man who trained the same kick 1000 times. These repetitive maneuvers hone precision and instinct, and reduce the time wasted through thinking.

So if we describe fighting skill as not being about knowledge accumulated, but being about time spent hone technique, I think we can argue that Goku is more skilled and spends more time training his technique than Batman does.

I think in the mainline comics it's said that Batman has "mastered" every martial art know to man. So while Batman would have more options to work with you make a good argument about Goku actually honing his technique more, because Goku is a martial artist before anything else. Batman on the other hand is a superhero first and a fighter second. (Or maybe third since he also has to act as a public figure as Bruce Wayne.)

[Zephyr]

As I said earlier: the only DC Universe character that I'm aware of who utilizes Qigong/Ki control to supernatural/superpowered degrees is the "Chinese Superman" Kong Kenan: and he acquired those abilities not through training or diligence, but simply because he was given some of Superman's Kryptonian Ki.

Not to say that there AREN'T any DC Universe characters out there who utilize supernatural Ki control and attained it through actual training... but if there are, I'm at least not aware of them.

So I have two possible answers to this question:

1) There as of yet has not been a DC Universe character who has achieved supernatural Ki manipulation through martial arts training

or 2) If there has been such characters, then it may well be - knowing Batman/Bruce Wayne's character - simply a lack of spiritual belief on Batman's part

Well, theherodjl mentioned Karate Kid earlier in the thread, a character I'd never heard of prior, but seems to qualify:

In DC, there is Karate Kid, a human from the future who has mastered every conceivable martial art(including alien ones) and was able to actually physically tangle with Superboy in sparring matches. I do believe that this is the concept of Chi/Ki in DC's universe, allowing even an ordinary human to reach Kryptonian levels from martial arts mastery.

[ChronoTwigger]

"More versed in martial art" am I.
And to spell the truth, Batman can't survive a good brazilian jujitsu fighter. Comics and manga supersede reality. A single Joker grunt that close a Mata Leao on Batman neck put an end to the adventures of the dark knight. MMA fights usually stop the moment a Mata Leao is closed.
Now: a Mata Leao is not cool to see, is "cheap", dirty and unfair. By the way, is the most powerful move human beings came to.
Second to this you own, in order:
-Kyokushin Karate Gyakutsuki, that is nothing (on sight) but a direct punch
-Capoeira Chapeu de Couro, a kick that use pratically everything (rotation, push, speed) but look quite... normal?
But usually easier stuff like boxing jabs and Full Contact kicks are more prone to be seen, as *easier* to deliver. In fact the goal of martial arts is to win a fight. They are called "arts" as they own a codified canon. Not 'cause they are fancy to see. That's mean as long Goku win against Batman, Goku *IS* a better martial artist. Goku can deliver a single attack so fast on Batman that the masked hero have no chance to react to, that imply a sudden KO.
Even if you humanize Goku and all of his opponents, the sheer number of actual field training make Goku a Batman killer. The fighting experience of Batman conclude into punching The Penguin gang. Mumble.

The above should hint you also there's nothing in this world like Dragon Ball. I've just seen once Tien using a KungFu style projection (but it was traced from a Shaolin movie) and Zamasu a WingChun parry. That's all I can spot. Toriyama wasn't a martial arts fan and probably know near nothing about.
No, nothing like UI. The only thing that barely compare on a far distance is the "Chi control sphere" of Aikido, but is conceptual, your body doesn't move automatically. Now mind that the "mindless punch" is something you learn quite immediatedly in many oriental martial arts: "the winning punch is the one you wasn't aware you delivered" as one of the training early goals. So, it's not strange that Goku was told about mindless movements - it's strange he was told so late!
This again tell that Toriyama wasn't a martial art fan, so to himself "Goku deliver so many attacks in a flurry" was enough as "martial art", despite it can look an hyperspeed rumble alone. Anyway, by the premise, that still qualify Goku as an exceptional martial artist (cause, well, he does win!).

[Kazuya Mishima]

Goku was skilled enough to fight against Hit who in the manga was said to be fighting evenly against him by predicting dozens of his moves in an instant.

I remember in The Batman, the animated show, Batman fought against some regular dude who had some device that allowed him to travel forward or back a few seconds which allowed him to dodge a couple of his punches and landed a couple of his own.

[Kunzait_83]

Well, theherodjl mentioned Karate Kid earlier in the thread, a character I'd never heard of prior, but seems to qualify:

In DC, there is Karate Kid, a human from the future who has mastered every conceivable martial art(including alien ones) and was able to actually physically tangle with Superboy in sparring matches. I do believe that this is the concept of Chi/Ki in DC's universe, allowing even an ordinary human to reach Kryptonian levels from martial arts mastery.

I'm familiar-ish with Karate Kid (god help me), but I didn't remember him achieving mastery of supernatural/wuxia levels of ki/qi/chi mastery. Makes sense that they'd eventually get him to that point though (since mastery over every form of martial art is his whole shtick).