Why Tenshinhan/Tien can, and should get more relevance

[Mr Baggins]

His rivalry with Goku is paramount to his character, with the aforementioned qualities being something of a subsidiary aspect.

Nah, I think you just fundamentally misconstrue the story structure built around these characters.

I'll say it once more: Vegeta's current rivalry with Goku is no more of a "goal" than Goku's constant self-improvement, Piccolo's constant meditating, Gohan's constant studying, etcetera. It's Vegeta's hobby written to specifically underline Vegeta's perfectionism as a fighter, often narratively used to exposit him in Super's various arcs while having either absent or ancillary (at best) bearing on his core growth in those arcs. It is subsidiary in every possible sense of the word. It, too, is in a psychologically healthier place now that Vegeta isn't pursuing it with the same self-destructive tendencies as in the original manga, which also demonstrates how much he's changed.

There isn't a single story arc in Super that puts more emphasis on this rivalry than on Vegeta's development when faced with other characters or personal demons, be it Cabba, Zamasu, the Namekians, Granolah, and so on. Super Hero goes even further and actively mocks it by largely off-screening his match with Goku while the tone and dialogue lampshades his "victory" at the end. That's Toriyama telling you how little it matters.

What a bizarre thing to get hung up on just because T&T are more invested in a character that by far has more dimensionality, nuance, depth, and focus even in the original serialization than... Tien, lol.

The Super Hero story had other characters front and centre, including Gohan and Piccolo.

Yes, and the Super Hero story worked because it uniquely benefited those characters and their development, which, much like Vegeta, also had quite a bit of relevance/involvement from their introduction in Toriyama's manga all the way up until the end of the Boo arc. Quite frankly, it's so much easier to imagine a dedicated story for them that can also stay in keeping with Dragon Ball's tone than those who are vastly more peripheral in the supporting cast. There's just a lot more to work with. It's not even close.

Anyway, again, none of this is to say that writing a story for Tenshinhan is impossible or forbidden. It just doesn't quite have the precedent that you think it does, nor is it some required obligation for a writer that moved him to the backest of backburners after just a couple of arcs in the 80's. As a character, there's really not all that much to him. Maybe they'll expand on him, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Lionel]

His rivalry with Goku is paramount to his character, with the aforementioned qualities being something of a subsidiary aspect.

Nah, I think you just fundamentally misconstrue the story structure built around these characters.

I'll say it once more: Vegeta's current rivalry with Goku is no more of a "goal" than Goku's constant self-improvement, Piccolo's constant meditating, Gohan's constant studying, etcetera. It's Vegeta's hobby written to specifically underline Vegeta's perfectionism as a fighter, often narratively used to exposit him in Super's various arcs while having either absent or ancillary (at best) bearing on his core growth in those arcs. It is subsidiary in every possible sense of the word. It, too, is in a psychologically healthier place now that Vegeta isn't pursuing it with the same self-destructive tendencies as in the original manga, which also demonstrates how much he's changed.

There isn't a single story arc in Super that puts more emphasis on this rivalry than on Vegeta's development when faced with other characters or personal demons, be it Cabba, Zamasu, the Namekians, Granolah, and so on. Super Hero goes even further and actively mocks it by largely off-screening his match with Goku while the tone and dialogue lampshades his "victory" at the end. That's Toriyama telling you how little it matters.

What a bizarre thing to get hung up on just because T&T are more invested in a character that by far has more dimensionality, nuance, depth, and focus even in the original serialization than... Tien, lol.

The Super Hero story had other characters front and centre, including Gohan and Piccolo.

Yes, and the Super Hero story worked because it uniquely benefited those characters and their development, which, much like Vegeta, also had quite a bit of relevance/involvement from their introduction in Toriyama's manga all the way up until the end of the Boo arc. Quite frankly, it's so much easier to imagine a dedicated story for them that can also stay in keeping with Dragon Ball's tone than those who are vastly more peripheral in the supporting cast. There's just a lot more to work with. It's not even close.

Anyway, again, none of this is to say that writing a story for Tenshinhan is impossible or forbidden. It just doesn't quite have the precedent that you think it does, nor is it some required obligation for a writer that moved him to the backest of backburners after just a couple of arcs in the 80's. As a character, there's really not all that much to him. Maybe they'll expand on him, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Vegeta's rivalry is a vital, if not obsessively oriented aspect to his character, not a satellite or tertiary interest. Goku may focus on improving himself, but generally it's contextualised within the broader framework of being confronted with some new challenge. Vegeta seeks to grow stronger as well, but it's more firmly defined by the rivalry he holds with Goku. His 'perfectionism' as a fighter leans into that rivalry. Goku holds such a connection to the on the other side of the dynamic, but not to the same fervent degree as Vegeta. It may not be relevant to expound upon every single minutiae of the rivalry, but it's there -- ever existing and obsolescent, with not much really having shifted in said dynamics since Vegeta's characterisation came full circle back during the Buu arc.

It's not too difficult to derive compelling narratives from other characters, including Tenshinhan. Two possible avenues were acknowledged in a previous post of mine in this topic -- his desire to redeem the Crane School and the weariness he holds or has historically held towards Vegeta, perhaps the latter developmentally leading into a greater want for the world to be able to protect itself without the Saiyans. A hypothetical progression of Tenshinhan's personality and interests, but one that would ironically have roots in attitudes of Goku and even Vegeta when they impressed the idea of Earth defending itself back in the Buu arc via the Spirit Bomb.

The issue with Super Hero is that it hearkened to a concept that's probably just as 'outdated' and detached from the current set up of characters as Tenshinhan's character status -- that is, Gohan's main character status and Piccolo as a competitive force. Sure, there's nuggets of developmental input for them like in the Tournament of Power and Moro arcs, but nothing on the scale of what they were enjoying back during the mid-points of original Dragon Ball Z. They basically had new life breathed into their characters. Something which, if I'm being honest, needn't be relegated to them if the interest was there. Tenshihan is a potential recipient; one whom, if I'm honest, I would enjoy seeing more of, along with the other humans, but that's just me.

[Mr Baggins]

You didn't say anything about the rivalry that I didn't say. It's an elementary drive for Vegeta because he wants to be the best (unlike Goku, who instead constantly wants to be better than before) but it's never framed as something thematically or narratively principal to any arc in Super. It's ever-present in the same way that Gohan's scholarly pursuits are – perhaps introductorily relevant, but usually only subordinately so to their development in the context of the story arc. It's not worth agonizing over. All characters are ultimately metaphorical storytelling devices, not real people.

Anyway, this topic isn't about Vegeta. It's about Tenshinhan, and that "storytelling device" thing I just mentioned applies as strongly here. Super Hero already touches on the Earthlings becoming sufficient enough to protect Earth without assistance from the Saiyans, and even then, that's not what the story is about because that prospect isn't especially engaging on its own. Likewise, I don't think any of the "avenues" mentioned so far ITT are all that compelling, either; stuff about the Crane School or the Mitsume-jin isn't much more than set dressing. It doesn't function as a deeper story premise by itself, and isn't how Dragon Ball's writing operates. There would need to be something more substantive for the character.

There's absolutely nothing inadequate or disgraceful about keeping minor supporting characters in minor supportive roles. Furthering the plot within their own tertiary capacity, if they even appear at all, is the only thing I would argue is truly "required" of them.

[Lionel]

You didn't say anything about the rivalry that I didn't say. It's an elementary drive for Vegeta because he wants to be the best (unlike Goku, who instead constantly wants to be better than before) but it's never framed as something thematically or narratively principal to any arc in Super. It's ever-present in the same way that Gohan's scholarly pursuits are – perhaps introductorily relevant, but usually only subordinately so to their development in the context of the story arc. It's not worth agonizing over. All characters are ultimately metaphorical storytelling devices, not real people.

Anyway, this topic isn't about Vegeta. It's about Tenshinhan, and that "storytelling device" thing I just mentioned applies as strongly here. Super Hero already touches on the Earthlings becoming sufficient enough to protect Earth without assistance from the Saiyans, and even then, that's not what the story is about because that prospect isn't especially engaging on its own. Likewise, I don't think any of the "avenues" mentioned so far ITT are all that compelling, either; stuff about the Crane School or the Mitsume-jin isn't much more than set dressing. It doesn't function as a deeper story premise by itself, and isn't how Dragon Ball's writing operates. There would need to be something more substantive for the character.

There's absolutely nothing inadequate or disgraceful about keeping minor supporting characters in minor supportive roles. Furthering the plot within their own tertiary capacity, if they even appear at all, is the only thing I would argue is truly "required" of them.

The rivalry is propels Vegeta's characterisation to seek ever greater heights. It principally guides who he is more than anything else and generally frames his personality, even to the point of how he conducts himself against threats. Goku might harbour similar prideful notions as a fighter, but he's been shown to have a greater easiness with compromising such ideas and it isn't said rivalry that's chiefly steering the course of his initiative to grow. The rivalry has become very much the foundation of Vegeta's ambitions for power, to the point that he's recognised for it moreso than other qualities he may have. As stated before, it's obsolecent and repetitive with not much change in the dynamics since it took on a friendlier tone during the Buu arc.

Not what the story is about? It was a major thematical point back during the Buu arc and even the late segment of the Cell arc was foundationally leaving the groundwork for the idea that a world without Goku could exist. They took allowances from such a concept and reused it for the Super Hero film, going so far as to incorporate not just bygone characters but even one of the humans, Krillin, and having him participate in spite of what power logic it might fly in the face of for him to be involved. You say that Tenshinhan lacks meaningful avenues? Once again, I feel the exact same way about Vegeta. His narrative more or less came full circle with the end of the Buu arc. But here we are, retreading the same familiar grounds because of expediency and probably popularity to an extent since Vegeta seems to appeal. The fact Bardock and Future Trunks made appearances Super lends credence to the latter observation.

[Mr Baggins]

The rivalry is propels Vegeta's characterisation to seek ever greater heights. It principally guides who he is more than anything else and generally frames his personality, even to the point of how he conducts himself against threats.

Dawg, at this point, you're either not understanding what I'm saying or disingenuously glossing over it.

Idle banter between them included, you can literally browse the entirety of the Super manga right now and add up Vegeta's total panel time, dialogue, and conflicts to see that any amount of focus on his rivalry with Goku is blatantly not in the majority. It's also either nearly or completely immaterial to his underlying character arcs, which, in this series, tends to be more about Vegeta's self-reflection over his past, his subversion of being a lone wolf through his mentorship over (and apprenticeship under) newer characters, him fighting for his family or learning to forgive and accept himself, and whatever comes next. These are obviously not above critique, but this is where you should start if you're going to discuss his actual narrative roles.

Yes, the rivalry is there – and it's a perfectly fine yin-yang dynamic where each character contrasts with yet complements the other in personality and approach – but at no point does it overshadow the narrative. Super Hero goes the extra mile to show how auxiliary it is.

No writer involved in this series is overblowing their relationship to the same exaggerated proportion you are, probably because it is so much friendlier and different now. You're weirdly fixating on a character that isn't even the topic of this discussion thread while ignoring my replies, so there's nothing further to add. We're evidently going in circles here.

Man, what a wild tangent this went into simply because I said Toriyama isn't obligated to a write a separate story about this thread's namesake.

Not what the story is about?

Did I stutter?

Correct, that's not what Super Hero's story is about. We already know a world without Goku can exist. It's a surface level plot point that's barely tangential to the movie's actual themes, and for someone who is apparently so keen on calling out "obsolescence", it sure seems awfully shallow to champion bringing back the same recycled plot point a second time for no other reason than showing off epic moves for a minor character like Tenshinhan.

Instead of doing that, why not instead have Tenshinhan move the story forward? Freeza used him as bait in the Tournament of Power to successfully deceive Frost, already knowing that his power level wouldn't make a difference for their team. That's making use of his weakness by incorporating him into a broader scheme. That's more effective writing than having him show up to, um, *checks notes*... do "cool stuff" against a bunch of no-name henchmen at the expense of slowing the pace of the story to a crawl to appease his fans, like what so frequently happened with all these side protags in the Moro arc. I can play the Budokai Tenkaichi games if I want that fix.

Once again, characters are not real people. They are conveyances for storytelling. Stories don't exist to pander to fictional characters, but characters do exist to enhance the story they're featured in. If there's no good reason to bring Tien into the fray, that's when you (rightfully) bench him. If there is, that's when you give him his justified story/character arc.

Honestly, I see no reason to continue this discussion because I don't think it's being approached in good faith.

[LoganForkHands73]

Tenshinhan is a difficult case. For a Dragon Ball character, he's fairly three-dimensional and his stoic personality is a nice contrast to the wackiness around him, but practically all of his shades revolve around his capacity as a martial artist. PlagueOfGripes covered this better than I can, but Tenshinhan's whole life revolves around his ambition to become the best martial artist, yet he's painfully irrelevant in terms of power levels and his vast arsenal of bizarre techniques is pretty much redundant when he has the Kikoho. Unlike Kuririn, Roshi or even Yamcha, he has no other ambitions in life, nothing else going on besides an ill-fated romance with Launch, but the narrative has forced him into a position where he can literally never achieve his driving goals. He missed his opportunities to surpass Goku decades ago and there's no believable scenario where that can ever change. Sure, they could introduce some new techniques or a unique power-up related to his Three-Eyed Clan status and with enough bullshit they could rationalise that he's now able to scrape Goku's level, but I think we all know that ship has sailed. I mean, ask yourself this, do we really need even more questionable power level bullshit?

I think the only interesting place they can go with Tien is to really delve into his motivations, explore his purpose in life is when he's aware of his own irrelevance, but there needs to be a wider arc that is somehow built around that or at least feeds into it. We know that many Dragon Ball arcs are now formulated by a committee that will dictate a new story has to somehow fit X, Y and Z plot elements. Chances are, an official story about Tien grappling with his insecurities will also be crowded in with some other tangential plot threads, just like how they squeezed a neat arc for Piccolo in between a crisis with Red Ribbon superhero androids.

All that said, I'm also fully willing to acknowledge that Dragon Ball is not some masterclass in tight, artful storytelling. It's an action-adventure comic for kids, so there's always been plenty of room for "rule of cool" to supersede narrative integrity on occasion. As fans, it's easy to lose sight of that sometimes. The entire Ginyu Force battle on Namek didn't really advance the plot forward and the protagonists' situation didn't change much after they were beaten, but it was a fun diversion. Most of the classic tournament arcs had their share of filler battles that only existed to showcase offbeat techniques and tactics. I don't begrudge anyone who just wants an excuse to see some spectacle, so long as there's at least some narrative heft behind it. Reducing Tenshinhan to a card-carrying jobber to progress the plot may make sense, but I can sympathise that it's not the most satisfying use of his character if they've gone to the trouble of including him.

I can't speak on behalf of all fans, but I don't think people need to see Tien as a super relevant character, they just want evidence that his years of dedication haven't been in vain. Making him a Super Saiyan God level warrior out of nowhere wouldn't be satisfying either, but giving him occasional viewtiful wins against lower level opponents perhaps isn't the worst thing in the world.

[Jack Bz]

I always liked Tenshinhan having a long standing grudge against Vegeta and not accepting or forgiving him for killing him and his friends (but having to leave things alone for practical reasons). He felt like he was an actual sane person sometimes.

Would be cool to see a character have that kind of dynamic with some of the truly psychopathic shit everyone else accepts like Zeno destroying multiverses for fun or the fact that Beerus would have destroyed the earth if he didn't get a good fight. Imagine Beerus hanging about on earth and Tenshinhan treats him with the disgust and disdain he deserves for almost killing everyone. I'd like to see that. How would the group dynamic be after Beerus responds with a friendly hakai.

[Civic]

I've never understood Tien's appeal to the point others do. I've heard people say that he's their favourite redemption arc in all of DB, over Piccolo and Vegeta, and I can't help but think 'really?' He was an adversary for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and basically heel-turns after his fight with Roshi to be a good guy. Then he dies trying to seal Demon King Piccolo away and doesn't really do much of note until he hits Semi-Perfect Cell with his Tri-Beam.

He has a lot of story-writing potential, but I don't think we'll ever see that realised. I don't think he pulls enough fans for it to happen.

[Coola Yagami]

Always found it odd that Ten Shin Han didn't want to even step into the Room of Spirit and Time, but I guess it was part of Toriyama slowly phasing out the human characters to make room for the Saiyans.

I liked the anime version giving the humans a final hurrah by having them all try to help take down Cell in the end.

[super michael]

Always found it odd that Ten Shin Han didn't want to even step into the Room of Spirit and Time, but I guess it was part of Toriyama slowly phasing out the human characters to make room for the Saiyans.

I liked the anime version giving the humans a final hurrah by having them all try to help take down Cell in the end.

Tenshinhan also refused to train with Goku, Piccolo and Gohan before the Android Saga. Goku was willing to let anyone train with him.

[Majin Buu]

Tenshinhan's whole life revolves around his ambition to become the best martial artist, yet he's painfully irrelevant in terms of power levels and his vast arsenal of bizarre techniques is pretty much redundant when he has the Kikoho. Unlike Kuririn, Roshi or even Yamcha, he has no other ambitions in life, nothing else going on besides an ill-fated romance with Launch, but the narrative has forced him into a position where he can literally never achieve his driving goals. He missed his opportunities to surpass Goku decades ago and there's no believable scenario where that can ever change.

This. Tenshinhan is a dedicated martial artist and is probably the Dragon Ball character that most conventionally embodies that archetype.

As such, I think starting his own martial arts school is the logical endpoint for him as a character and Super making that happen was one of the things it did do right.

I like to think that at some point he realized that he'll never surpass Goku so instead of obsessing over that (unlike some people) and pursuing strength in service of a goal he'll never achieve, he shifted his focus to teaching others what he knows about fighting- something he can do since the guy is an expert martial artist in his own right. Going from misguided student that needed help to see the light to martial arts master with his own students and the implication that he's a far better (re: moral) teacher than his own master was? Seems like things have already come full circle for him- which is more closure than the likes of Yamcha or Chiaouzu got.

So I agree with those saying that doing anything with Tenshinhan at this point amounts to giving him something to do just for the sake of it since his journey as a martial artist already seems to be complete (or as complete as its gonna get).

[Koitsukai]

Funnily enough, and taking into account Tenshinhan doesn't exist and he is a product of somebody's imagination, he is the least interested in being in the spotlight.
Unlike Piccolo who is also a loner, this guy kinda moved on from the put-your-life-on-the-line lifestyle and from the gang as well. After the Cell arc he basically stopped hanging out with the Z crew. I think he even said "we won't be seeing each other anymore", and only came back to help Gohan. Originally, this was kept for GT, he is only seen genking up vs Omega, he literally fucked off and got enganged to Chaozu or something.

And sure, DBS brought him back with him being there in most gatherings and for the ToP (although he needed to be convinced), but he seems to be going the natural route of a human being pushing 50.
Quieting down a bit, passing the torch with his dojo and all, only coming out of retirement when he is needed, so him coming back better than ever... I don't know, it'd be something that he hasn't been wanting to do for a long time, and I don't think it's just because he was left behind, powerwise. Or maybe it is, but by now, and understanding it's fiction and a wuxia character might have a longer useful life, it would seem like a reach.
It should've happened a long time ago, if at all, by now his ship should've not only sailed but reached its destination.

If somebody else would get the out-of-universe wish of becoming relevant again, like Piccolo just did, then I'd think Krilin is better suited for that. He is still putting his ass on the line, he has a family to protect, a wife to impress, and is still a good friend to the crew... while Tenshinhan is so empty to me(he doesn't even have a cell phone ), his only motivation is that mime of his.