Why Tenshinhan/Tien can, and should get more relevance

[CascadeIllusion]

With Piccolo having gained a transformation to put him up to modern power levels in the Super Hero movie, the avenue for other characters to regain the spotlight has opened up significantly. But while there's multiple approaches for different characters, I think Tien is the one that could easily be the most interesting to expand upon.

Tien is a member of the Three-Eyed Clan, something that is indeed confirmed thanks to Daizenshuu 4. But we don't know very much about them, and how powerful these beings originally were.

However, Toriyama has stated that Tien lost many of the powers his third eye would be capable of due to his influence from the Crane Hermit, so we know that Tien's third eye has never been used to its full potential. So the existing powers that Tien has demonstrated, such as growing extra arms or splitting into multiple copies of himself, are just a small subset of a potentially vastly larger set of abilities that the Three-Eyed People would possess. What if what's holding Tien back all this time is the "evil influence" from the Crane Hermit, which may have permanently affected his third eye's capabilities? Even though he may have long retired from his villain days, he may have lingering "impurities" that prevent him from achieving his full potential, much like the Kinto-Un's purity requirements.

Of course, a straight-up power level boost would be really boring. Not that Tien couldn't get stronger from such an upgrade, but what I find interesting is that if Tien unlocks the true power of his third eye, then he could be useful for more than just raw power. And that would be a benefit for Dragon Ball writing in general, because it would allow for him to interact and participate in battles in unexpected ways.

For example, what if "Nirvana Tien" (the name I'm giving this unofficial transformation where he unlocks the full potential of his third eye, which is fitting since Nirvana is connected heavily to Buddhism religion and philosophy, which is also where the Third Eye is commonly discussed, and this ties into Tien "awakening" his third eye, thus achieving Nirvana) could directly see into other timelines? With the Dragon Ball franchise exploring the multiverse and alternate timelines, this would be a very useful asset. Perhaps even further, he could interact with these timelines - to a reasonably limited extent - to pull feats such as finding alternate versions of himself from different timelines and drawing his power from them. Also, his esoteric nature would give him some degree of reality-warping capabilities and manipulation of illusions. He could perhaps also enter inside of people's minds/thoughts/dreams, allowing for reconnaissance and information gathering, as well as setting the stage for very unconventional fights that don't follow the normal rules of the franchise thanks to the different plane of reality they reside on.

Basically, make him Doctor Strange, but for Dragon Ball, and you get the idea of where I'm going. He may not have the strength of the other Z-fighters, but Nirvana Tien's unusual abilities would make him an extremely valuable asset nonetheless, in a way that is much more interesting, dynamic, and has potential for future expansion than just simply "Tien but stronger".

[nineko]

I take you never watched YuYu Hakusho, because what you described is very similar to what Hiei can do with his Jagan. I'm not sure if Dragon Ball wants to go full circle and copy from a copy (though I hope so for another reason not relevant to the topic at hand).

[Magnificent Ponta]

I guess in reading the OP, the main thing that springs to mind for me is that I can see clearly enough how it is that Tenshinhan "can" become "relevant", but I'm not really seeing what looks like an actual reason why Tenshinhan "should" get more relevance. This seems to be saying he "should" get more relevance simply because he "can", and I'm not sure that follows. For what reason do we want this to happen? Does it just boil down to liking Tenshinhan, or is it rather that amping his capacities theoretically allows one to use him more? If the latter, then one might point out that this could be done with just about any character. What about Tenshinhan specifically makes this desirable?

Discussion often occurs as to how the non-Saiyans can become "relevant" in fights again; for Tenshinhan, something to do with the Third Eye usually comes up somewhere (I myself have suggested a kind of battle-precognition-cum-Granolah-esque-accuracy before). And batting that around is all fine and dandy, as far as it goes. It's fun to do, up to a point. But powersets are just a "toolkit" for fighting and not a whole lot more. Tenshinhan isn't just a 'cool unusual fighting' cipher, he's a character in a story and the way he acts as a character in the working out of that story is paramount, and not necessarily how much his abilities have been fiddled with.

The way to ensure Tenshinhan gets more "relevance", then, is really much simpler than that - just write stories that make him relevant. Create and use scenarios that can put him and his character at the centre, pitched with a scope and at a level that is appropriate for using him as a key vehicle for telling the story. He doesn't need to get shouldered with overclocked abilities out the wazoo to deal with {insert latest universal threat here} - that's what Goku and Vegeta are there for; flooding that market with more and more competition makes for diminishing returns. Just tell other stories - ones that are good for using Tenshinhan.

[theherodjl]

For better or worse, it is simply not DB's style to give supporting characters like Tenshinhan significant power ups just so they can actually make a difference against the latest threat and have a newfound impact on the story. The best he ever did in that department was spamming a particular Ki blast that had the raw force needed to keep Semi Perfect Cell incapacitated for several minutes, and that really isn't so bad. Even as far back as Dragonball where it was established that while Tenshinhan was strong and a dedicated martial artist, he wasn't going to be be a game changer against opponents or be the one who ascends to importance in the plot. He is supporting character for a reason...and it's because he's just not really that special.
Personally, I'd rather see Tenshinhan in a story where he helps out the other human characters in a miscellaneous quest or we see more events related to his dojo. There's not enough room or potential for Ten to take up a part of the story on his own.

[ChronoTwigger]

You can bet your shoes Piccolo and Gohan will be no more relevant than they already were, out of that movie.

[Mr Baggins]

First of all, welcome to the forum.

Secondly and finally, there's a problem with your proposal. You didn't describe anything interesting about Tenshinhan outside of "but what if he gets X, Y and Z abilities for the FEATS man!"

Yeah, I think I'll pass. Tenshinhan's character arc ended a long time ago. Even if what you're suggesting isn't a traditional power-up, it might as well be because I don't know what giving him new techniques or whatever actually adds to the story beyond shallow fanservice to prove that Tenshinhan is "useful".

Characters are characters, not just the vessels they inhabit. Do something with the characters.

[Lionel]

People say that Tenshinhan is all washed up and has nothing left to offer. Well, I mean what about his background as the Crane student prodigy? Redeeming his school's reputation would be a personal vendetta of his, but something that could have some tangible repercussions if he decided to seek out more martial arts masters to learn and grow through them. In addition, his weariness of Vegeta could have a role if he came to the conclusion that Earth's survival shouldn't be left in the hands of just the Saiyans.

Also, Tenshinan's repertoire of techniques might seem flashy but they're more interesting than a lot of other characters'. I wouldn't mind seeing him make a comeback through some means, maybe the 3 eyed clan lore could play a role. Is it likely? Definitely not. I'm surprised Piccolo and Gohan have got the attention they have as of lately. It's not something you would really expect at this point in time, but I'll credit to Toriyama and Toyotaro for offering others besides Goku and Vegeta something.

[super michael]

Tenshinhan trains like a weakling and doesn't dare train in hard places or strong partners, therefore he shouldn't be more relevant.
He refuse to train with the Saiyan, didn't dare train in the ROSAT and doesn't consider getting any masters at all. He refuse to do any special training.

Piccolo and Gohan still trains with each other. Gohan even uses Vegeta gravity chamber to train. They both trained with Goku and used the ROSAT. They both got their potential unlocked

[Lionel]

Tenshinhan trains like a weakling and doesn't dare train in hard places or strong partners, therefore he shouldn't be more relevant.
He refuse to train with the Saiyan, didn't dare train in the ROSAT and doesn't consider getting any masters at all. He refuse to do any special training.

Piccolo and Gohan still trains with each other. Gohan even uses Vegeta gravity chamber to train. They both trained with Goku and used the ROSAT. They both got their potential unlocked

Depends on what the implications are of him training up in the mountains. If there's anything like our elevations in Dragon Ball, then his training would actually be fairly impressive with temperatures and air pressure lows that are really on a comparable scale to the ROSAT. At the very least, it's more impressive than Goku's three years of intermittent image sparring at the beginning of BOG.

Doesn't mean Tenshinhan will see any kind of resurgence in his role playing, sadly. Toriyama is not exactly the most creative or generous when it comes to providing meaningful roles to all the members of his cast. I doubt Tenshinhan will get much more than what he received during the Moro arc, which is decent enough compared to the obscurity he's been faced with since the Cell arc.

[Mr Baggins]

It has nothing to do with lacking creativity or generosity. That's ridiculous. Toriyama has no obligation to continue writing for a minor secondary character that he isn't interested in.

The narrative isn't a tool for the characters, the characters are a tool for the narrative. In fact, I'd argue that Tenshinhan is so exhausted of storytelling possibilities at this juncture that even his inclusion in the Moro arc felt pointless. Retiring him makes sense.

Personally? While I'm not automatically opposed to the idea of a "Tenshinhan story", thus far I still haven't read a compelling justification for one.

[theherodjl]

If they did a chapter/episode(if the Super anime ever decides to make a return) going more into Tenshinhan's backstory or that of his people's, that might be an actual reason to include him in the story. A good setup to getting that concept off the ground would be to have Bulma/Dr. Hedo do a study on the alien lifeforms & their descendants that currently live on the planet, researching how they are similar & different to humans and other animals native to Earth. It could also be a good way for the people of Earth to be publicly aware that aliens live in their midst and aren't just tall tales or "tricks" as Mt. Satan would put it.

[Lionel]

It has nothing to do with lacking creativity or generosity. That's ridiculous. Toriyama has no obligation to continue writing for a minor secondary character that he isn't interested in.

The narrative isn't a tool for the characters, the characters are a tool for the narrative. In fact, I'd argue that Tenshinhan is so exhausted of storytelling possibilities at this juncture that even his inclusion in the Moro arc felt pointless. Retiring him makes sense.

Personally? While I'm not automatically opposed to the idea of a "Tenshinhan story", thus far I still haven't read a compelling justification for one.

It's funny, I feel the same way about Vegeta. His narrative functionality seemed to reach its natural conclusion with the Buu arc, yet for some reason there's been a resurgence of his characterisation and even this back & forth perpetuating of his dynamic with Goku. It's kind of redundant, honestly, but here we are. I don't see how much more can be extracted from his character, though I imagine something will be conceived because he's now the deuteragonist of the franchise.

Tenshinhan has some viable narratives mentioned previously that I think could work for him based on his personality. Will they happen? Probably not, sadly.

[super michael]

Tenshinhan trains like a weakling and doesn't dare train in hard places or strong partners, therefore he shouldn't be more relevant.
He refuse to train with the Saiyan, didn't dare train in the ROSAT and doesn't consider getting any masters at all. He refuse to do any special training.

Piccolo and Gohan still trains with each other. Gohan even uses Vegeta gravity chamber to train. They both trained with Goku and used the ROSAT. They both got their potential unlocked

Depends on what the implications are of him training up in the mountains. If there's anything like our elevations in Dragon Ball, then his training would actually be fairly impressive with temperatures and air pressure lows that are really on a comparable scale to the ROSAT. At the very least, it's more impressive than Goku's three years of intermittent image sparring at the beginning of BOG.

Doesn't mean Tenshinhan will see any kind of resurgence in his role playing, sadly. Toriyama is not exactly the most creative or generous when it comes to providing meaningful roles to all the members of his cast. I doubt Tenshinhan will get much more than what he received during the Moro arc, which is decent enough compared to the obscurity he's been faced with since the Cell arc.

The ROSAT but get extremely hot also, not just freezing. Plus there is also higher gravity in the ROSAT, compared to earth gravity.
Goku does other training and not just image training, he also trains with other stronger than himself.

Tenshinhan doesn't dare train with anyone stronger than himself after the Saiyan Saga. This continues to be true in DBS. He only relies on earth training and training with Chiaotzu.

[Lionel]

Tenshinhan trains like a weakling and doesn't dare train in hard places or strong partners, therefore he shouldn't be more relevant.
He refuse to train with the Saiyan, didn't dare train in the ROSAT and doesn't consider getting any masters at all. He refuse to do any special training.

Piccolo and Gohan still trains with each other. Gohan even uses Vegeta gravity chamber to train. They both trained with Goku and used the ROSAT. They both got their potential unlocked

Depends on what the implications are of him training up in the mountains. If there's anything like our elevations in Dragon Ball, then his training would actually be fairly impressive with temperatures and air pressure lows that are really on a comparable scale to the ROSAT. At the very least, it's more impressive than Goku's three years of intermittent image sparring at the beginning of BOG.

Doesn't mean Tenshinhan will see any kind of resurgence in his role playing, sadly. Toriyama is not exactly the most creative or generous when it comes to providing meaningful roles to all the members of his cast. I doubt Tenshinhan will get much more than what he received during the Moro arc, which is decent enough compared to the obscurity he's been faced with since the Cell arc.

The ROSAT but get extremely hot also, not just freezing. Plus there is also higher gravity in the ROSAT, compared to earth gravity.
Goku does other training and not just image training, he also trains with other stronger than himself.

Tenshinhan doesn't dare train with anyone stronger than himself after the Saiyan Saga. This continues to be true in DBS. He only relies on earth training and training with Chiaotzu.

It's a temperature extremity nonetheless. Plus, if it's comparable to Everest, then the air pressure quality would be 1/3rd that of sea level. Not entirely equal to the 1/4th that the ROSAT has, but close. I that that's more impressive than what Goku had available during his 3 years between the Buu and BOG arcs which is the point I'm trying to make. In fact, the precedent of power gains being achieved through fairly mundane methods in Z is a concept going back to the intermission between the Freeza and Future Trunks arcs, since Vegeta presumably went off into the wilderness or some place else on the planet to train as the group waited for Goku to return.

[super michael]

Depends on what the implications are of him training up in the mountains. If there's anything like our elevations in Dragon Ball, then his training would actually be fairly impressive with temperatures and air pressure lows that are really on a comparable scale to the ROSAT. At the very least, it's more impressive than Goku's three years of intermittent image sparring at the beginning of BOG.

Doesn't mean Tenshinhan will see any kind of resurgence in his role playing, sadly. Toriyama is not exactly the most creative or generous when it comes to providing meaningful roles to all the members of his cast. I doubt Tenshinhan will get much more than what he received during the Moro arc, which is decent enough compared to the obscurity he's been faced with since the Cell arc.

The ROSAT but get extremely hot also, not just freezing. Plus there is also higher gravity in the ROSAT, compared to earth gravity.
Goku does other training and not just image training, he also trains with other stronger than himself.

Tenshinhan doesn't dare train with anyone stronger than himself after the Saiyan Saga. This continues to be true in DBS. He only relies on earth training and training with Chiaotzu.

It's a temperature extremity nonetheless. Plus, if it's comparable to Everest, then the air pressure quality would be 1/3rd that of sea level. Not entirely equal to the 1/4th that the ROSAT has, but close. I that that's more impressive than what Goku had available during his 3 years between the Buu and BOG arcs which is the point I'm trying to make. In fact, the precedent of power gains being achieved through fairly mundane methods in Z is a concept going back to the intermission between the Freeza and Future Trunks arcs, since Vegeta presumably went off into the wilderness or some place else on the planet to train as the group waited for Goku to return.

There is no increase in gravity, in what Tenshinhan does. The temperature is predictable, while the ROSAT it can be freezing or boiling, making it unpredictable.
Tenshinhan only relies on earth training and environment. However Goku he does many different type of training, training that relies on gaining power and skills. Why are you so focused on his training between Buu Saga to BoG? That is not the only training he does.

Why are you ignoring him training with Whis, Kaio, Vegeta, ROSAT, Merus, etc.
Same with Vegeta, doing a lot of variety of training. Heck Vegeta did 300x gravity training.

[Lionel]

The ROSAT but get extremely hot also, not just freezing. Plus there is also higher gravity in the ROSAT, compared to earth gravity.
Goku does other training and not just image training, he also trains with other stronger than himself.

Tenshinhan doesn't dare train with anyone stronger than himself after the Saiyan Saga. This continues to be true in DBS. He only relies on earth training and training with Chiaotzu.

It's a temperature extremity nonetheless. Plus, if it's comparable to Everest, then the air pressure quality would be 1/3rd that of sea level. Not entirely equal to the 1/4th that the ROSAT has, but close. I that that's more impressive than what Goku had available during his 3 years between the Buu and BOG arcs which is the point I'm trying to make. In fact, the precedent of power gains being achieved through fairly mundane methods in Z is a concept going back to the intermission between the Freeza and Future Trunks arcs, since Vegeta presumably went off into the wilderness or some place else on the planet to train as the group waited for Goku to return.

There is no increase in gravity, in what Tenshinhan does. The temperature is predictable, while the ROSAT it can be freezing or boiling, making it unpredictable.
Tenshinhan only relies on earth training and environment. However Goku he does many different type of training, training that relies on gaining power and skills. Why are you so focused on his training between Buu Saga to BoG? That is not the only training he does.

Why are you ignoring him training with Whis, Kaio, Vegeta, ROSAT, Merus, etc.
Same with Vegeta, doing a lot of variety of training. Heck Vegeta did 300x gravity training.

Technically, the gravitational pull would actually be slightly less at an altitude akin to Everest, as it would be distant from the Earth's centre. As for the temperature, extreme is extreme. The reason why I cite it is to demonstrate that the rigours he goes through are of a comparable, if not more severe, standard in relation to the intermission between Buu and BOG arcs where Goku only had image sparring in a regular environment. Yes, I know he doesn't use the same methods as Goku and Vegeta with the masters. But that shouldn't detract from him being able to make strides if the precedent set by Goku during that intermission is anything to go by.

The point I'm making isn't to ignore the training methodologies you mentioned, but to point out how even the most mundane of them can apparently produce decent results; not on the scale of training with an angel, but still, at the very least, adequate. If anything, Tenshinhan's methods would implicitly be closer to the ROSAT than Goku's image sparring in terms of extreme.

[Mr Baggins]

It's funny, I feel the same way about Vegeta.

That's nice.

I don't, and Toriyama clearly doesn't. There's probably a resurgence of Vegeta's characterization because most people find Vegeta to be an interesting, pivotal character. I'd say there's layers upon layers of more depth and development to work with using him than someone like Tenshinhan any day of the week, but more importantly, Dragon Ball Super is Goku and Vegeta's story. You may not like that story, but to fault the creators for telling the story they want to tell as it was literally designed to be told is nonsense.

People wanting individual tales about Yamcha or Tenshinhan or Pilaf or whoever will always have the option to read/write fanfiction. I'm not being snide here; that's what its purpose is, and that's why it has an audience. However – and this cannot be stressed enough – the author's work doesn't "owe" a damn thing to side characters that it isn't about. Whoever wants them to have relevance purely for the sake of it should consider said relevance a privilege if they get it.

I don't really have much else to add to this topic. Ironically, Tenshinhan's best role in the manga was during the Tournament of Power, where it actually furthered the plot and made use of him being weak rather than just churning out meaningless "spotlight" moments for fans that don't care about much else.

[Lionel]

It's funny, I feel the same way about Vegeta.

That's nice.

I don't, and Toriyama clearly doesn't. There's probably a resurgence of Vegeta's characterization because most people find Vegeta to be an interesting, pivotal character. I'd say there's layers upon layers of more depth and development to work with using him than someone like Tenshinhan any day of the week, but more importantly, Dragon Ball Super is Goku and Vegeta's story. You may not like that story, but to fault the creators for telling the story they want to tell as it was literally designed to be told is nonsense.

People who want individual tales about Yamcha or Tenshinhan or Pilaf or whoever always have the option to read/write fanfiction. I'm not being snide here; that's what its purpose is, and that's why it has an audience. However – and this cannot be stressed enough – the author's work doesn't "owe" a damn thing to side characters that it isn't about. Whoever wants them to have relevance purely for the sake of it should consider said relevance a privilege if they get it.

I don't really have much else to add to this topic. Ironically, Tenshinhan's best role in the manga was during the Tournament of Power, where it actually furthered the plot and made use of him being weak rather than just churning out meaningless "spotlight" moments for fans that don't care about much else.

In what respect? Maintaining the same dynamic with Goku and perpetuating this constant rivalry where he's inevitably one-upped by his opposite in practically every tussle with the big bad of the arc? I don't see how that's all too engaging of a personal narrative for himself. In fact, the most interesting aspects to his personality, in my opinion, are when he's defying his own archetypal personality and subverting it like the glimpses of remorse he's shown towards the victims of his days as a murdering operative of Freeza's empire, or when he's interacting with his family. At least then, you can really appreciate how he's changed and isn't just defined by his constant pursuit of trying to defeat Goku.

You're right, the author doesn't owe a thing to these characters... yet strangely enough, he keeps bringing them back and involving them to some degree in these arcs. You don't need to look any further than the Moro arc or this recent battle with Cell Max. Heck! By the time the Buu arc began, everyone who wasn't a Saiyan was removed from the battlefield. But here we are now, humouring the idea of Piccolo being a competitor once more, or the humans improving themselves enough to at least take on some of the subordinates of the antagonist.

[Mr Baggins]

In what respect?

In fact, the most interesting aspects to his personality, in my opinion, are when he's defying his own archetypal personality and subverting it like the glimpses of remorse he's shown towards the victims of his days as a murdering operative of Freeza's empire, or when he's interacting with his family. At least then, you can really appreciate how he's changed and isn't just defined by his constant pursuit of trying to defeat Goku.

Buddy, you literally answered your own question. Everything you mentioned in the quote above is presented as the crux of Vegeta's growth and portrayal throughout the series. There are no story arcs in Super that just define him by his rivalry and call it a day, at least among those that give him a major role (which is nearly all of them). My least favorite arc in all of the manga is no exception.

Moreover, you're conflating the plot's exposition with everything else. Vegeta's rivalry with Goku serves as the story's base induction of his appearance in each arc to explain his presence. It isn't the "personal narrative" that is then brought about when he's inevitably confronted with something greater.

You're right, the author doesn't owe a thing to these characters.

Cool, so you concede. That's been my point.

yet strangely enough, he keeps bringing them back and involving them to some degree in these arcs.

Involving them to some degree isn't necessarily an issue, though I believe I've already elucidated that point ITT. In any case, you wouldn't be calling Vegeta the deuteragonist if the story didn't make that clear.

[Lionel]

In what respect?

In fact, the most interesting aspects to his personality, in my opinion, are when he's defying his own archetypal personality and subverting it like the glimpses of remorse he's shown towards the victims of his days as a murdering operative of Freeza's empire, or when he's interacting with his family. At least then, you can really appreciate how he's changed and isn't just defined by his constant pursuit of trying to defeat Goku.

Buddy, you literally answered your own question. Everything you mentioned in the quote above is presented as the crux of Vegeta's growth and portrayal throughout the series. There are no story arcs in Super that just define him by his rivalry and call it a day, at least among those that give him a major role (which is nearly all of them). My least favorite arc in all of the manga is no exception.

Moreover, you're conflating the plot's exposition with everything else. Vegeta's rivalry with Goku serves as the story's base induction of his appearance in each arc to explain his presence. It isn't the "personal narrative" that is then brought about when he's inevitably confronted with something greater.

You're right, the author doesn't owe a thing to these characters.

Cool, so you concede. That's been my point.

yet strangely enough, he keeps bringing them back and involving them to some degree in these arcs.

Involving them to some degree isn't necessarily an issue, though I believe I've already elucidated that point ITT. In any case, you wouldn't be calling Vegeta the deuteragonist if the story didn't make that clear.

The rivalry is what chiefly has defined Vegeta to the point of, dare I say, ad nauseam without much change or progression of the interactiveness besides his willingness to cooperate with Goku when the going gets rough (something that's been occurring as far back as the Buu arc). His rivalry with Goku is paramount to his character, with the aforementioned qualities being something of a subsidiary aspect. It's like beating a dead horse that doesn't react in any significant manner -- ever the pursuing rival, not truly reaching the goal he aspires for as Goku is constantly a step ahead or reaches it in the midst of a climactic fight.

I call Vegeta the deuteragonist because that's what has been established. Doesn't mean I intrinsically agree with the idea from a creative standpoint or think that Toriyama couldn't or shouldn't try something else. In addition to this, we know that Toriyama has gone beyond the trapping of simply having bygone cast members throw in their lot for a minor role. The Super Hero story had other characters front and centre, including Gohan and Piccolo. It's given new credence to the idea that discarded or old cast members can make a resurgence. It's not simply in the realm of fan fiction any more.