The Cell Saga is the most existential in the series

[foxfang4]

If you think about it, Toriyama has each of the main protagonists struggle to come to terms with their limitations in the face of an overbearing evil. So, each of the main characters deals with the uncomfortable truth that they need to change in order to combat this threat (first, the Androids, then Cell). What I loved is that the story is really about the characters facing an existential crisis and redefining their identities due to their own limitations, even if it's really hard on them. I think this hints at the appeal of why the Cell arc is so popular.

For example:
• Piccolo not happily turning to Kami once he realizes that he's not effective anymore.
• Gohan’s insecurities about changing throughout the fight with Cell.

Anyways, just a few things I noticed. I think Toriyama is a really good writer, and I enjoy noticing little patterns in his work.

[LoganForkHands73]

You make a solid argument there, and I guess the Buu arc plays with the same apocalyptic/existential themes with a more facetious presentation. However, I think the arc that surprisingly handles existentialism best is the Tournament of Power, because we see what all the characters are willing to do to survive and what they're fighting to protect. I especially like Android #17's reaction to the whole situation because, perhaps realistically, he's the only one who questions if there's even a point to fighting if universes are doomed to be erased. If Zeno can erase the whole cosmos in a blink, like none of it even happened, is all that rare fauna #17 protects even worth anything? Is his family? What about the Son/Satan family, or Freeza's former empire, or Arale's poop stick, or anything the heroes ever fought for? After the Future Trunks arc kinda glossed over the horrible existential implications of an entire timeline getting wiped and replaced, it's refreshing for a Dragon Ball story to orient back to the bigger picture.

[ABED]

This sounds more impressive than it actually is, sad to say. Piccolo softens a bit, but the reunion with Kami offers little except for a power up. And Gohan's crisis was a last minute addition to milk the drama.

[Basaku]

This sounds more impressive than it actually is, sad to say.

Yes but it's the most the franchise offers anyway so, the OP still got the point?

I will also add Kuririn/18 part to this too. One of the very few instances when a freaking romance changed the course of the main plot and did it well lol. And it wasn't just a bunch of inqonsequential pinning/crushing, it brought on quite a bit of existentional dilemmas for both Kuriein and 18

Love Cell arc to this day. Too bad the actual main villain wasn't as well developed as the rest of the story and characters in it

[Magnificent Ponta]

I always felt the Cell arc was more about Reputation than anything else; the whole premise of the story seems to centre around Son Goku's reputation in particular, but most of the other main characters seem to at least nod to the idea of reputation in some way that is important to the story (and usually involves the establishment of a Huge Reputation to dramatically undercut it later); a lot of it is ad hoc by-the-numbers power creep, I guess, but it serves to build the whole story so fundamentally and the story seems to fixate on it to such an extent that I can't quite recall applying so totally in prior arcs:

• Freeza kicks off the whole arc by coming to Earth to salvage his reputation by defeating Son Goku ("I'll make you see who is the strongest in the Universe..."); his reputation is often used as a measuring stick for various other characters (Trunks - "This is the guy who beat Freeza, and he was powerless"; the Androids - "You beat Freeza, and these things scare you??"; Cell - "This thing's even stronger than Freeza. Are you scared? Or excited?"); there's even a small beat where he's flattered to think his reputation precedes him when Trunks shows he knows exactly who he is ("I'm honoured that my name is known even in the jerkwater outskirts of the galaxy");
• The premise of the whole story is that Trunks has returned to the Past to save Son Goku from an early death because of his reputation as Earth's Strongest, Greatest Hero Who Is Needed. Conversely, the whole reason the threat of the Androids exists is likewise because of the reputation Son Goku has, parsed through the mind of a malicious genius with an insane grudge - the androids exist only to fight, defeat, and kill Son Goku (specifically him) in the first place; even when they reject Gero's instructions because they hate him, #17 and #18 decide to go kill Goku anyway because of his reputation, and the fun it's likely to give them when they fight him ("Son Goku's supposed to be the strongest in the world, right?");
• This reputational significance of Goku gets repeated throughout the arc almost to the point of being tedious - Trunks on his return is insistent that the heroes can't do anything without Goku among them; when Goku recovers from the heart disease Kuririn makes a point of noting that things seem more hopeful now; the King of The World (obliquely, and the narrator, directly) references Goku as the key hope of Earth ("...The World had forgotten about Son Goku") and the focus is relentlessly on him after he emerges from the Room of Spirit and Time, and how he's better than everyone else and is the strongest hero on Earth and the only person who can fight Cell (which, ironically, is not true at any point in the arc - either Vegeta or Piccolo or Gohan is stronger than Goku, depending on which point in the arc you're looking at, but he's never Top Dog despite his reputation); there's endless speculation about what secret he might have up his sleeve and whether he can win even when he's blunt about not being able to do so and even when it becomes painfully clear that he can't win; the whole story is Goku this, Goku that, how's Goku, what about Goku, is Goku stronger than you, is Goku stronger than me, Goku Goku Goku to the exclusion of everything else, surpassing previous arcs (which of course is what makes the narrative flip to Gohan so effective, and gives some added heft to Goku's decision to stay dead because he's a Bad Guy Magnet);
• The reputation of the androids as the destroyers of the future looms large in the way the arc unfolds - the 3 years' training in preparation to meet the threat; the confused response when #19 and #20 turn out to be not nearly so fearsome as their reputation indicates ("I can tell by your faint movements...you aren't as terrible as the rumours made out"; "I wonder, were you weaker than we thought..? Or have we grown too strong..?"); the reputation #17 and #18 have for being evil destroyers defines a lot of the heroic response (e.g. Piccolo deciding to fuse with Kami despite his distaste for it and earlier boasts/protests in the arc about being the Pure Evil King of Demons - which is also the reputation he has judging from, e.g., Cell's reaction to him) before it becomes clear that, far from being the world-ending threat they were reputed to be, #17 and #18 are just (insanely powerful) punks looking for a cheap thrill and #16 is a nature-loving almost-pacifist; their "threat" simply becomes a question of being accessories to Cell's development rather than living up to their original reputations;
• The reputation of The Super Saiyan as such is also a huge feature of the arc also; Goku's reputation is at least partly as a result of this status and it's initially seen as an automatic win when Trunks whips it out, when it's revealed that Gero didn't factor it in when calculating how to kill Goku, and when Vegeta reveals it he assumes that because he's a Super Saiyan he's now the strongest thing around - even when he's been surpassed by Piccolo, Cell, and the Androids, he's still clinging to the reputation of the Super Saiyan as "The Strongest in the Universe" that cannot be surpassed; this in turn touches off the arc's fixation on surpassing the Super Saiyan as the way to achieve victory (which, as with the various hyped High-Reputation moves the arc pulls, turns out to be a dead end and regular Super Saiyan is better); On the other side of things, Gohan's reputation as a fighter with gigantic hidden power comes to the fore (but he does just about everything he can to not make good on it when it comes to the crunch, using the threat of it as a deterrent to Cell, trying to talk himself out of fighting with it, and almost denying he can do anything with that power at the climax of the arc - he becomes a liability at various points, even when he's shown to be as overwhelmingly strong as his reputation indicates);
• Cell's own reputation is a big driver of events in the Mid-Arc; his reputation is, curiously, made by computer. It tells him that if he absorbs the Androids, he will be "perfect in every way", and when he absorbs #17 his reputation is accordingly inflated - Goku calls him a monster, and the consensus is that he has the ultimate power and nobody can beat him - it's this very reputation that actually serves to induce Vegeta to let him go and aid and abet his attempts to absorb #18 and complete himself, as the gap between his reputation and reality lets Vegeta down ("You've disappointed me! I was told you were incredible!"); once perfected Cell believes his own hype again and acts it all the way, making moves that cement his reputation in his own eyes by proving his superiority against all prospective challengers, stoking his own reputation even by going on TV and announcing the Cell Game, and it also figures in how unglued he gets when Gohan surpasses him, with his resorting to tricks that can salvage that reputation (e.g., self-destructing means, apparently, that the Cell Game ends in a "draw") - even his last words are an assertion of his reputation as the Perfect being, and that it's impossible that he can be bested.
• And of course we have the one big joke of an otherwise very dour arc - the (by this point in the story, meaningless) reputation of the "Martial Arts Champion" Mr. Satan, whose overblown reputation from winning a Nothing Budokai is comic fodder throwing the Real Fight between the Real Big Guys into stark relief; naturally Mr. Satan (undeservedly) comes out of the whole thing with his reputation improbably and immeasurably enhanced as the "Saviour of the World".

So, yeah. The characters trying to come to terms with their limits is certainly a a relevant consequence, but I feel it's quite overshadowed by the totemic significance that Reputation acquires in this arc.

I find the Buu arc is very reputation-focused also, but while the Cell arc plays Reputation straight down the line (even with its narrative twists that undercut what is established), the Buu arc plays with Reputation for laughs as a kind of (very wry, and highly dramatic in places) Comedy of Errors; The Super Hero is a Goofy Teen who thinks he's being cool; the Martial Arts Champion engages in all sorts of ridiculous antics at the Budokai to maintain his reputation; the Mysterious Hyped Guy (Kaioshin, Dabura, etc.) ends up being no big deal, and even when the threat (Buu) is worse than his Reputation, it turns out to have an unexpectedly silly character - and the solutions are equally reputationally-based (Son Goku! Super Saiyan 3! Fusion will be really strong! The fabled Sword of the Kaioshin! Gohan's Potential Yielding Power beyond Limits!) and all end up being huge pratfall dead-ends mostly played for a joke somewhere or other, and the guy with the Huge Fake Reputation (Mr. Satan) ends up actually justifying it at the critical moment.

[Mireya]

There's also Vegeta's indifference during Gero's escape blast towards baby Trunks and Bulma, contrasting with his later fury at Future Trunks' death, which adds a compelling layer to this growth characters faced as well. Future Bulma's surprise when informed about Vegeta's reaction, Future Trunks' witty reflection on his mom's thoughts about Vegeta when he didn't save them, and the subsequent acknowledgment of Vegeta's hidden goodness created a very nice nuanced character dynamic I feel. Additionally, Vegeta's unprecedented apology to Gohan may also showcase his evolving character, which is always nice to see from Vegeta, specially a first time thing like this.

While I find it challenging to articulate an overarching theme beyond the dynamic plot and the characters growth for myself, I think the narrative appears to delve into the characters' depth pretty much, which can be reflected upon. The relentless pursuit of ultimate power, exemplified by Cell's quest for perfection (perfect being in every sense, mentally, power, both which he lost vs Gohan) and Vegeta's arrogance and thinking he reached the unsurpassable power leading to a dark path, maybe suggesting a theme of the illusion of perfection. Vegeta's redemption and Cell's defeat may highlight that true perfection doesn't exist and that perfection lies in acknowledging imperfection and continual self-improvement, with perfection itself being an illusion that only exists when thinking of "this would be the perfect if ..." --- tho this last addition is a wild thing that came to my mind lol.

[MasenkoHA]

This sounds more impressive than it actually is, sad to say. Piccolo softens a bit, but the reunion with Kami offers little except for a power up. And Gohan's crisis was a last minute addition to milk the drama.

I think it accomplished something besides power up (although that was definitely the main things)

It was the completion of Piccolo and Kami's story (more so Piccolo) The nameless Namekian who rejected the evil inside him to ascend to the throne of Kami can be at peace with himself. Now that the evil half (Piccolo) was no longer well evil anymore the two could reunite into one as a more wordly being carrying Piccolo's knowledge and experience as a warrior and Kami's knowledge as uh earth's Kami. Although the latter only really amounted to Piccolo sensing Kaioshin's divinity something Kami-less Piccolo probably couldn't do.

[ABED]

This sounds more impressive than it actually is, sad to say. Piccolo softens a bit, but the reunion with Kami offers little except for a power up. And Gohan's crisis was a last minute addition to milk the drama.

I think it accomplished something besides power up (although that was definitely the main things)

It was the completion of Piccolo and Kami's story (more so Piccolo) The nameless Namekian who rejected the evil inside him to ascend to the throne of Kami can be at peace with himself. Now that the evil half (Piccolo) was no longer well evil anymore the two could reunite into one as a more wordly being carrying Piccolo's knowledge and experience as a warrior and Kami's knowledge as uh earth's Kami. Although the latter only really amounted to Piccolo sensing Kaioshin's divinity something Kami-less Piccolo probably couldn't do.

I guess it does, but if they didn't merge, I don't think it would've felt like a dangling plot thread or unresolved character arc. While they are physically the same character, they are very different characters with their own motivations and means.

If this story arc is in fact the most existential of the series, the execution is very sloppy and mostly by accident, feeling largely like it's fans who filled in the blanks.

[jjgp1112]

good post

To add to this, a key part of this arc and something that greatly differentiates it from the Buu arc is that while a lot of the story developments are triggered by characters making horrible decisions, all of the bad decisions in this arc are driven by established flaws and quirks in every character - Goku et. al's desire to push themselves as martial artists over making the responsible choice, Vegeta's arrogance, Krillin's sappiness, Gohan's reluctance, etc.

In the case of Krillin and Vegeta's actions with Semi-Perfect Cell, Toriyama practically flashed sirens that those two guys were gonna fuck up lmao.

Sure you can say Vegeta's arrogance is a bit of a devation from the pragmatist on Namek - but in the case of Namek, Vegeta was up against guys that he knew all his life and thus was well aware of how tall the deck was stacked against him, and he was desperate to be free of them. But post-Namek, his inferiority complex towards Goku is put in play the very second he discovers Goku is still alive, and then Piccolo even points out that achieving Super Saiyan has gone to his head and made him more rash. (And the minute he thought he might stand a chance against Frieza, he was just as overconfident as he was with the Androids)

And for as much as we talk about Toriyama's lack of planning, putting the destruction of 18 in Krillin's hands was a clear, calculated narrative choice.

The story is constantly dropping scenarios specifically designed to cause a particular character to get in their own way, which is why I'm not only forgiving of its writing, but enjoy it because of how much of a light it sheds on every character's motivations.

On the other hand, a lot of the Buu saga poor decisions feel like characters bending to the plot rather than the plot bending to them, and then the various retcons make things even messier and harder to make sense of.

[ABED]

good post

To add to this, a key part of this arc and something that greatly differentiates it from the Buu arc is that while a lot of the story developments are triggered by characters making horrible decisions, all of the bad decisions in this arc are driven by established flaws and quirks in every character - Goku et. al's desire to push themselves as martial artists over making the responsible choice, Vegeta's arrogance, Krillin's sappiness, Gohan's reluctance, etc.

In the case of Krillin and Vegeta's actions with Semi-Perfect Cell, Toriyama practically flashed sirens that those two guys were gonna fuck up lmao.

Sure you can say Vegeta's arrogance is a bit of a devation from the pragmatist on Namek - but in the case of Namek, Vegeta was up against guys that he knew all his life and thus was well aware of how tall the deck was stacked against him, and he was desperate to be free of them. But post-Namek, his inferiority complex towards Goku is put in play the very second he discovers Goku is still alive, and then Piccolo even points out that achieving Super Saiyan has gone to his head and made him more rash. (And the minute he thought he might stand a chance against Frieza, he was just as overconfident as he was with the Androids)

And for as much as we talk about Toriyama's lack of planning, putting the destruction of 18 in Krillin's hands was a clear, calculated narrative choice.

The story is constantly dropping scenarios specifically designed to cause a particular character to get in their own way, which is why I'm not only forgiving of its writing, but enjoy it because of how much of a light it sheds on every character's motivations.

On the other hand, a lot of the Buu saga poor decisions feel like characters bending to the plot rather than the plot bending to them, and then the various retcons make things even messier and harder to make sense of.

i agree with this a lot, so I'll add that while I stand by my statement mostly, Gohan is the biggest reason for what I said. His arc and motivations don't really add up. Kuririn's works very well, as does Vegeta's.

I can forgive quite a bit. Like with Star Wars. Clearly there was no big plan. Luke and Leia are revealed to be siblings in the movie after Leia practically sticks her tongue down his throat. And yet, the idea of them being siblings makes a lot of sense narratively. The execution is wonky but the idea is solid, especially since it leads to one of the best moments in Star Wars when Vader's threat to turn Luke's sister causes Luke to go nuts and nearly kill Vader. Getting back to DB. I can forgive sometimes wonky execution if it leads to something really good.

[Hugo Boss]

I also agree that Cell arc added unnecessary character traits to Gohan. That last minute drama also strikes me oddly, since he should be a full-fledged warrior by the end of Saiyan arc, killing when necessary without feeling guilty.

The only reason his character arc wasn’t finished yet was his inability to control his hidden power, which I think is quite difficult to justify when Goku and Piccolo had 3 years to figure out a way to bring it out.

[MasenkoHA]

I also agree that Cell arc added unnecessary character traits to Gohan. That last minute drama also strikes me oddly, since he should be a full-fledged warrior by the end of Saiyan arc, killing when necessary without feeling guilty.

The only reason his character arc wasn’t finished yet was his inability to control his hidden power, which I think is quite difficult to justify when Goku and Piccolo had 3 years to figure out a way to bring it out.

I don't know why Gohan should be a full-fledged warrior who kills when necessary without remorse. The lesson he learned was sometimes you have to fight to protect others, not necessarily to kill. And then he had to learn that lesson again at the Cell Games.

The hidden power thing was always just an excuse for how this toddler could fight alongside seasoned warriors like his father and Piccolo. Piccolo brought out that hidden power when he trained him during the wait for the Saiyans and Gohan went from a battle of power of 1 without his rage boost to around 1000. Had Toriyama not decided near the 11th hour of the Cell saga to make Gohan the new lead, Gohan's character arc would have still been completed back in the Saiyan arc when he chose to go back with Krillin to help his dad fight Vegeta and then when he defied to his mother and told her he was going to Namek to help bring back Piccolo. He brought out his hidden potential by being trained by Piccolo (of course like any other martial artist he could always improve) he realized the importance of fighting when necessary and he learned to stand up for what was right and not just be a pampered mama's boy. There wasn't anywhere else for his character to go. So of course Toriyama reset him back to "wahhh I don't wanna fight" at the Cell Games.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't know why Gohan should be a full-fledged warrior who kills when necessary without remorse. The lesson he learned was sometimes you have to fight to protect others, not necessarily to kill. And then he had to learn that lesson again at the Cell Games.

I agree with everything else, but who says a full-fledged warrior doesn’t feel remorse? Goku and Gohan both have that softness, but they have no qualms about going past that when needed. At least, Gohan had learned it since Piccolo’s death.

The way Gohan carries his explanation to Cell is like killing takes a heavy toll on him and he doesn’t want to hurt anyone (what?!). I get that he doesn’t like to fight like Goku, but saying that fight was pointless was foolish.

[Basaku]

I can forgive quite a bit. Like with Star Wars. Clearly there was no big plan. Luke and Leia are revealed to be siblings in the movie after Leia practically sticks her tongue down his throat. And yet, the idea of them being siblings makes a lot of sense narratively. The execution is wonky but the idea is solid, especially since it leads to one of the best moments in Star Wars when Vader's threat to turn Luke's sister causes Luke to go nuts and nearly kill Vader. Getting back to DB. I can forgive sometimes wonky execution if it leads to something really good.

The obvious issue being how rare such good/well-executed payoffs or pivots actually happen, unfortunately more often then not it just never lands the way the author(s) expected. Agree with the Star Wars and Cell arc examples, it works in both cases but I would say Lucas and Toriyama were just as talented during those perdiods to make up a good story on the fly as they were also lucky. Lost, Mass Effect or Game of Thrones are some of the examples where it doesn't really work out in the end and it ain't like the respective authors were not trying or ain't talented.

[ABED]

I can forgive quite a bit. Like with Star Wars. Clearly there was no big plan. Luke and Leia are revealed to be siblings in the movie after Leia practically sticks her tongue down his throat. And yet, the idea of them being siblings makes a lot of sense narratively. The execution is wonky but the idea is solid, especially since it leads to one of the best moments in Star Wars when Vader's threat to turn Luke's sister causes Luke to go nuts and nearly kill Vader. Getting back to DB. I can forgive sometimes wonky execution if it leads to something really good.

The obvious issue being how rare such good/well-executed payoffs or pivots actually happen, unfortunately more often then not it just never lands the way the author(s) expected. Agree with the Star Wars and Cell arc examples, it works in both cases but I would say Lucas and Toriyama were just as talented during those perdiods to make up a good story on the fly as they were also lucky. Lost, Mass Effect or Game of Thrones are some of the examples where it doesn't really work out in the end and it ain't like the respective authors were not trying or ain't talented.

Game of Thrones isn't a great example bc I believe they did have a plan. The issue isn't lack of planning, it was more confusion of hitting planned plot points with telling the story you set out to tell. At least that's what I think happened.