Inclusivity towards women in Dragon Ball?

[Mireya]

China is a tricky and fickle market to get into, at least movie wise. There are a limited number of "slots" for foreign movies and you really have to play by the rules in order to get your movies released. That being said, a lot of profit can be made over there. I believe DB is fairly big in China as well, so regarding this topic, it's something to keep in mind.

Well yeah, partially true as China faces challenges and potential losses due to restrictions of content in their film market but I don't think this it much relevant to female representation in DB as it should be analysed as its own issue taking the manga and analysing whether you think there was a proper or there was (it indeed was...many times) a misrepresentation of women... And how the Chinese audience responds them isn't that relevant to proper portrayal analysing it in the lens of harmful content and not simply profit for a consuming market, not to mention that martial arts in China is big for female too, one of the best mma fighters of all times is in UFC now, and is from China, as they are big with women taking roles in fighting:

"From JuJu Chan to Disney’s new Mulan, these seven women, empowered by MMA and martial arts, don’t need a man to save them"

-- From styles magazine

Yeah, you are right. I was thinking more about other minorities such as black people, that get downplayed a lot in advertising for foreign movies in China. I believe the same goes for gay characters/scenes and such.

(The Mulan remake waa pretty bad rough. And it's production was icky to say the least)

Yeah I've heard overall bad opinions about the Mulan movie and how it s*****. I think before the DN movie came out, they were also showing the trailer to JP people in Japan and seeing how they reacted. There was a JP movie of DN too that iirc wasn't that well received, but better so than Netflix's one ofc.

[MasenkoHA]

.


The explosion of Hong Kong-inspired action/martial arts fight choreography and staging/blocking in major, A-list Hollywood movies (and with its share of female examples too: see the above linked clips) was REALLY prominent and mainstream (almost impossible to miss really) all throughout the late 90s and most of the 2000s.

We're not exactly talking obscure, apocryphal trivia for hardcore film nerds here: if you were alive, sentient, and had access to a television screen anytime post-1998 (and hell, there were plenty of examples before 1998 too), this stuff was all basically in your face throughout mainstream media for years and years and years across the 2000s (and even to one extent or another into the 2010s).

Hell, the biggest sleeper hit of 2022 that swept the Oscars winning 7 of the 11 awards it was nominated for was an American made sci-fi comedy wuxia film with a middle aged Asian woman as the lead

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6710474/

[AliTheZombie13]

Chi-Chi was an interesting returning character at the tournament just before DBZ but it was similarly great to see her develop her character in DBZ.

When Resurrection F released in theaters I remember asking why couldn't Chichi or Videl contribute to the fight somehow? Even if it was just a scene of them being in the know and prepping a safe zone for Maron so 18 could go fight since she's stronger than them and Krillin.

This pissed me off, honestly.
Not just because of the "less representation for female fighters who are relegated to housewives" Toriyama trope, but also because it made no damn sense in-universe.

OK, so Freeza is coming back... Wasn't #18 established as vastly superior to Freeza?!
I mean, yes, he trained, but the heroes don't know that. Just toss #18 into the battlefield and let her have a field day with Freeza, dammit.

"But no, I must go, because you're stronger than me, so if I die, uh... Our kid is gonna become an orphan, I guess, and you'll kill Freeza anyway. So uh... What do we win by telling you to stay again?"

[Mireya]

Yeah, Kuririn fighting and not 18 doesn't make sense. In the Boo saga it was kinda understandable because 18 wanted to fight in the tournament for the money and seeing all the stronger-than-her going away would be the perfect chance to get the #1 and the money. But outside of it, in both movies, Kuririn joining the action and nor her makes no sense. I think she even cuts Kuririn's hair cut before and says "how I like that man" or something lol. But in the Super manga, or Super anime, she kinda called Kuririn a coward for him not wanting to fight in the ToP iirc, though she was in there moreso for the prize money, too.

[Kunzait_83]

Hell, the biggest sleeper hit of 2022 that swept the Oscars winning 7 of the 11 awards it was nominated for was an American made sci-fi comedy wuxia film with a middle aged Asian woman as the lead

The very same Asian woman from Julie's earlier Yes Madame/In the Line of Duty clip on the previous page no less! Almost like she's been a fairly big time international film star for the past 35 years now or something crazy like that.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I wondered why I never heard of this movie

Its a Hong Kong action/martial arts film (called "Yes Madame" aka "In the Line of Duty": its a whole franchise with a bunch of sequels, 9 movies total), and its not a particularly obscure one either. It got 8 sequels (all of them female lead), so it wasn't exactly a flop either. Its literally a female/kung fu take on Lethal Weapon/buddy cop movies.

and I am sad that mainstream Hollywood WILL NEVER produce something like this ever.

Guys. Come on. Seriously. The examples of this are numerous and VERY mainstream.

--------------------------------------

Speaking to people broadly here: I'm literally begging and pleading with everyone in this whole forum to understand that movies - even mainstream Hollywood ones that Joe and Jane Average know about and have seen - extend well far, faaaaar beyond stuff like the MCU (or Harry Potter, or Disney/Pixar animations, live action Disney movies, or whatever else have you for small children and families).

The explosion of Hong Kong-inspired action/martial arts fight choreography and staging/blocking in major, A-list Hollywood movies (and with its share of female examples too: see the above linked clips) was REALLY prominent and mainstream (almost impossible to miss really) all throughout the late 90s and most of the 2000s.

We're not exactly talking obscure, apocryphal trivia for hardcore film nerds here: if you were alive, sentient, and had access to a television screen anytime post-1998 (and hell, there were plenty of examples before 1998 too), this stuff was all basically in your face throughout mainstream media for years and years and years across the 2000s (and even to one extent or another into the 2010s).

You wont believe this but I will actually without irony take the "You DONT KNOW ANYTHING" and admit "I AM A DUMBASS" kindly and THANK YOU for showing me this! I actually love getting recommendations and opening up my horizons.

[Tian]

You wont believe this but I will actually without irony take the "You DONT KNOW ANYTHING" and admit "I AM A DUMBASS" kindly and THANK YOU for showing me this! I actually love getting recommendations and opening up my horizons.

While I don't think you're a dumbass for not watching them, I'm really surprised you didn't.

Aside from Atomic Blonde, those films are aired very often in both free and pay TV.

Very often that you're likely to spot them even if you're just channel surfing.

Of course, not as much as the whole damn Harry Potter saga on TNT and Cinemax but you get the idea.

[MasenkoHA]

Hell, the biggest sleeper hit of 2022 that swept the Oscars winning 7 of the 11 awards it was nominated for was an American made sci-fi comedy wuxia film with a middle aged Asian woman as the lead

The very same Asian woman from Julie's earlier Yes Madame/In the Line of Duty clip on the previous page no less! Almost like she's been a fairly big time international film star for the past 35 years now or something crazy like that.

Oh absolutely, I only felt the need to point out she was a middle aged Asian woman for the would be marketing execs on the forum who think only male white leads sell tickets and get attention

You wont believe this but I will actually without irony take the "You DONT KNOW ANYTHING" and admit "I AM A DUMBASS" kindly and THANK YOU for showing me this! I actually love getting recommendations and opening up my horizons.

Also Cure if you haven't, absolutely watch Everything Everywhere All at Once. I think you'll love it

[Cure Dragon 255]

You wont believe this but I will actually without irony take the "You DONT KNOW ANYTHING" and admit "I AM A DUMBASS" kindly and THANK YOU for showing me this! I actually love getting recommendations and opening up my horizons.

While I don't think you're a dumbass for not watching them, I'm really surprised you didn't.

Aside from Atomic Blonde, those films are aired very often in both free and pay TV.

Very often that you're likely to spot them even if you're just channel surfing.

Of course, not as much as the whole damn Harry Potter saga on TNT and Cinemax but you get the idea.

I just dont do cable tv anymore. Only Watch Adult Swim since it airs hours of anime.

[Tian]

I just dont do cable tv anymore. Only Watch Adult Swim since it airs hours of anime.

Oh, that's understandable.

I wish I had the Adult Swim channel on my provider (Damn you Movistar TV) but it seems I gotta wait until they pull the plugs of I.SAT and TCM off.

[JulieYBM]

I don't watch television anymore, either. I'll check out the odd streaming show based on good will, but there days it's mostly trans stuff or drama films. I have watched so many good films this year (both from 2023 and before), like The Lighthouse, Monica, Saltburn, Gojira Minus One, Barbie, and Promising Young Woman. I've have way more of a good time watching 'smaller' films than I have a lot of blockbusters. I'll probably try to watch Everywhere eventually, but for right now a lot of stuff that comes across more mainstream-y has been uninteresting to me, unless I really like the director.

Writing 121,000 words (and counting) for a novel has also taken up a considerable amount of my time this year, too! lol

[Mireya]

The Lighthouse is siiick (that movie that's kinda creepy, and at the end you get like wtf was this all?)... Like The Witch (same director) this one lived up to what I was expecting, The Northman, not so much.

If you haven't watched yet, Little Women is worth watching too, it stars Saoirse Ronan and Florence Pugh and it's from Greta. Very good for reflection, and takes place in a more distant time, so it's a lot about breaking stereotypes... Emma Watson is on it too.

[super michael]

Chi-Chi was an interesting returning character at the tournament just before DBZ but it was similarly great to see her develop her character in DBZ.

When Resurrection F released in theaters I remember asking why couldn't Chichi or Videl contribute to the fight somehow? Even if it was just a scene of them being in the know and prepping a safe zone for Maron so 18 could go fight since she's stronger than them and Krillin.

Chi Chi and Videl are so weak, they wouldn't be able to contribute in anyway.
Why should they be in the battle field, when they don't allow strong fighter such as Goten and Trunks, who can fuse to become the 3rd strongest Z fighter. 1st and 2nd are Goku and Vegeta, while Gohan is 4th.

As for C18 there was no excuse for her not to show up in the fight, Kuririn should have stayed behind to watch their daughter.
C18 can 1 hit destroy Kuririn easy like nothing. C18 used to be way stronger than Freeza.

Edit I do hope that Pan, Bra and Maroon gets interesting and good roles in the future, along with Oob, Goten and Trunks.

[Basaku]

True, but it also depends on how they there outweigh pros and cons. It damages China's image to an extent and may make their population less acceptable or up to par to different cultures and practices, which would be very good and in terms of revenue too, but the government there also has specifics with this agenda as to protect Chinese own domestic films industry (which has shown robust recovery momentum and reached 54.91 billion yuan -- over 7.75 billions of dollars in 2023 --- https://www.statista.com/topics/5776/fi ... icOverview) and to, what they believe, protect Chinese own culture and values --- the latter which has damaging points but it's an option as well that may be perceived well depending on how they uproot certain values. For the Chinese government it also enhances its own power in the public opinion and the movie market, which to them contributes to maintain social stability, so it's not a simple matter they they're too stupid and couldn't see this loss in revenue coming.

Of course they were too stupid to predict it, just like they were too stupid to predict their current economic problems, we're talking unelected authoritarian career politicians, that IS even worse than the elected morons in the western democracies. France heavily protects and cushions its own film industry too but it doesn't outright ban films en masse, turning off international investors and partners completly. China could've simply replicated that but of course theu had to go overboard "stronk-man" style.

Edit I do hope that Pan, Bra and Maroon gets interesting and good roles in the future, along with Oob, Goten and Trunks.

And this is where Toyotarou comes in and I think people vastly underestimate how much good he can bring into the franchise. Trunks&Goten prologue/epilogue is a taste of it. Even if people don't the actually like the writing in the chapters itself, or the artwork, it cannot be understated how BIG of a shift it is to have someone else than Goku/Vegeta actually lead the main story in this franchise even if for just a lil bit. The last time it happened was honesly The Saiyaman saga in 1994.

In many ways, you can clearly see how the millenial-Toyatorou comes from a completly different generation than the old executive farts at Toei/Shuiesha that used to give us the 'golden' interviews about Pan having to remain a damsel-in-distress becaue they couldn't possibly imagine a different story. He's the youngest (relatively) person involved in modern DB creation at such high position of influence. It's already paying off and I expect it will only increase further in the years to come

[Mireya]

True, but it also depends on how they there outweigh pros and cons. It damages China's image to an extent and may make their population less acceptable or up to par to different cultures and practices, which would be very good and in terms of revenue too, but the government there also has specifics with this agenda as to protect Chinese own domestic films industry (which has shown robust recovery momentum and reached 54.91 billion yuan -- over 7.75 billions of dollars in 2023 --- https://www.statista.com/topics/5776/fi ... icOverview) and to, what they believe, protect Chinese own culture and values --- the latter which has damaging points but it's an option as well that may be perceived well depending on how they uproot certain values. For the Chinese government it also enhances its own power in the public opinion and the movie market, which to them contributes to maintain social stability, so it's not a simple matter they they're too stupid and couldn't see this loss in revenue coming.

Of course they were too stupid to predict it, just like they were too stupid to predict their current economic problems, we're talking unelected authoritarian career politicians, that IS even worse than the elected morons in the western democracies. France heavily protects and cushions its own film industry too but it doesn't outright ban films en masse, turning off international investors and partners completly. China could've simply replicated that but of course theu had to go overboard "stronk-man" style.

Edit I do hope that Pan, Bra and Maroon gets interesting and good roles in the future, along with Oob, Goten and Trunks.

And this is where Toyotarou comes in and I think people vastly underestimate how much good he can bring into the franchise. Trunks&Goten prologue/epilogue is a taste of it. Even if people don't the actually like the writing in the chapters itself, or the artwork, it cannot be understated how BIG of a shift it is to have someone else than Goku/Vegeta actually lead the main story in this franchise even if for just a lil bit. The last time it happened was honesly The Saiyaman saga in 1994.

In many ways, you can clearly see how the millenial-Toyatorou comes from a completly different generation than the old executive farts at Toei/Shuiesha that used to give us the 'golden' interviews about Pan having to remain a damsel-in-distress becaue they couldn't possibly imagine a different story. He's the youngest (relatively) person involved in modern DB creation at such high position of influence. It's already paying off and I expect it will only increase further in the years to come

Well, China's protective film industry that came up stronger since the last decade being associated with their inability to manage their economics downfalls is a generalization and a false equivalence, you could use data to support this argument. Plus, comparing Chinese film industry policy to French's one is not exactly a proper comparison because they have different marketing goals, agenda, regulations... It's a different context for different countries.

You're suggesting China should replicate the France's way of dealing with the film industry but that ignores and oversimplifies the argument, as each country faces their own issues and have specific situations. There's just not one single right way to approach how to deal with film industry because it ignores the context of each country and their specific motivations with their own film industry. And I wasn't saying that such was the right choice, it could be a potential for the Chinese population to embrace and have a more comforting and understanding of different approaches, cultures, but I feel that's a complex issue that can't be oversimplified like this.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I wondered why I never heard of this movie

Its a Hong Kong action/martial arts film (called "Yes Madame" aka "In the Line of Duty": its a whole franchise with a bunch of sequels, 9 movies total), and its not a particularly obscure one either. It got 8 sequels (all of them female lead), so it wasn't exactly a flop either. Its literally a female/kung fu take on Lethal Weapon/buddy cop movies.

and I am sad that mainstream Hollywood WILL NEVER produce something like this ever.

Guys. Come on. Seriously. The examples of this are numerous and VERY mainstream.

--------------------------------------

Speaking to people broadly here: I'm literally begging and pleading with everyone in this whole forum to understand that movies - even mainstream Hollywood ones that Joe and Jane Average know about and have seen - extend well far, faaaaar beyond stuff like the MCU (or Harry Potter, or Disney/Pixar animations, live action Disney movies, or whatever else have you for small children and families).

The explosion of Hong Kong-inspired action/martial arts fight choreography and staging/blocking in major, A-list Hollywood movies (and with its share of female examples too: see the above linked clips) was REALLY prominent and mainstream (almost impossible to miss really) all throughout the late 90s and most of the 2000s.

We're not exactly talking obscure, apocryphal trivia for hardcore film nerds here: if you were alive, sentient, and had access to a television screen anytime post-1998 (and hell, there were plenty of examples before 1998 too), this stuff was all basically in your face throughout mainstream media for years and years and years across the 2000s (and even to one extent or another into the 2010s).

You wont believe this but I will actually without irony take the "You DONT KNOW ANYTHING" and admit "I AM A DUMBASS" kindly and THANK YOU for showing me this! I actually love getting recommendations and opening up my horizons.

OMG You also wont believe this but I did watch Kill Bill and Charlies Angels. I liked those fights a lot.

EDIT: AND the Matrix. LOL

[Basaku]

I feel that's a complex issue that can't be oversimplified like this.

When it comes to scaring-off international investors, it is that simple. Regardless of what the goal was - the basic reality of free economy market, which China did shift to in the 80s despite remaining authoritarian politically, is that mass bans in any industry simply ruin sense of stability and predictability among the potential investors which is key to do business in virtually any industry. Disney will not be catering or editing their films to suit the chinese market for a loooong time because they have zero reason to believe it will yeld them any results if the chinese government randomly decides to ban their films regardless. If they did that 3 years ago, they may do it again.

Decisions like this are easy to take and implement, but then surprise surprise it takes years or even decades to restore investor trust so they're willing to take a risk again, let alone mold their product to suit the specific market.

[Majin Buu]

And this is where Toyotarou comes in and I think people vastly underestimate how much good he can bring into the franchise. Trunks&Goten prologue/epilogue is a taste of it. Even if people don't the actually like the writing in the chapters itself, or the artwork, it cannot be understated how BIG of a shift it is to have someone else than Goku/Vegeta actually lead the main story in this franchise even if for just a lil bit.

It is a big shift, but I think you're giving Toyotaro too much credit here considering the core idea of making someone other than Goku and Vegeta the leads stems from the Toriyama-penned film he's adapting. You make it sound like that core idea was a Toyotaro original.

Considering you concede in the same quote that his writing (the most important factor in terms of this discussion) and artwork are widely disliked, I really don't think Toyotaro is the force for good you're hyping him up as- Let alone the one that's gonna usher in a golden age of female characters mattering more in Dragon Ball.

[Mireya]

I feel that's a complex issue that can't be oversimplified like this.

When it comes to scaring-off international investors, it is that simple. Regardless of what the goal was - the basic reality of free economy market, which China did shift to in the 80s despite remaining authoritarian politically, is that mass bans in any industry simply ruin sense of stability and predictability among the potential investors which is key to do business in virtually any industry. Disney will not be catering or editing their films to suit the chinese market for a loooong time because they have zero reason to believe it will yeld them any results if the chinese government randomly decides to ban their films regardless. If they did that 3 years ago, they may do it again.

Decisions like this are easy to take and implement, but then surprise surprise it takes years or even decades to restore investor trust so they're willing to take a risk again, let alone mold their product to suit the specific market.

But it's not simply scaring off international investors:
https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/fi ... -law-2016/

It's a matter of what they perceive to enrich Chinese own culture and masses, protect the core of their beliefs and strengthen the domestic film industry like I've pointed out, speaking of which, China has strengthened its own film industry, marketing, and young filmmakers are getting more recognition, so you're overestimating the impact of foreign movies in China's own movie industry imo:
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/ ... ml?lang=en

^ Here it's detailed that China showed resilience in the film marketing despite the pandemic and got up to 60% of the box office revenues.

https://chinafilminsider.com/trends-in- ... egulation/

^ This trend in Chinese films regulations also shows the restriction isn't simply random and for no reason, they employ quotas into movies and they need to obtain a movie release before being published.

There's political and cultural weighing in this and it isn't simply a matter of economic profits either.

[Basaku]

But it's not simply scaring off international investors:
https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/fi ... -law-2016/

It's a matter of what they perceive to enrich Chinese own culture and masses, protect the core of their beliefs and strengthen the domestic film industry like I've pointed out, speaking of which, China has strengthened its own film industry, marketing, and young filmmakers are getting more recognition, so you're overestimating the impact of foreign movies in China's own movie industry imo:
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/ ... ml?lang=en

^ Here it's detailed that China showed resilience in the film marketing despite the pandemic and got up to 60% of the box office revenues.

https://chinafilminsider.com/trends-in- ... egulation/

^ This trend in Chinese films regulations also shows the restriction isn't simply random and for no reason, they employ quotas into movies and they need to obtain a movie release before being published.

There's political and cultural weighing in this and it isn't simply a matter of economic profits either.

You're quoting a 2016 article when we're discussing the issue that is far more recent - the bans en masse didn't start till 2020s.

Also like you've said - there are clear political motivations here that have nothing to do with protecting 'chinese values' or stuff like that so bit puzzled why you seem to be aware of it yet still in other paragraphs just recite the party propaganda line like it's gospel.

It is a big shift, but I think you're giving Toyotaro too much credit here considering the core idea of making someone other than Goku and Vegeta the leads stems from the Toriyama-penned film he's adapting. You make it sound like that core idea was a Toyotaro original.

Considering you concede in the same quote that his writing (the most important factor in terms of this discussion) and artwork are widely disliked, I really don't think Toyotaro is the force for good you're hyping him up as- Let alone the one that's gonna usher in a golden age of female characters mattering more in Dragon Ball.

It may have come off this way bit it wasn't my intention. But I definitely did want to underline the difference between him and even modern Toei versus the idiotic quotes we were getting in a not-so-distant pasts, or puzzling writing from Toriyama himself back in the day. I well aware of Toyo's faults, but he absolutely does bring a different perspective to the table being far younger and coming from the fandom background himself which the franchise can only benefit from. Especially in the workplace culture that used to value age above everything else and let's be honest, a lot of older people have... lets say antiquated views. Thankfully that is now changing around the world and even in Japan

As for Super Hero - it was Toyo who wanted to do a Trunks-focused story so yeah, the core idea of that came from him.