Inclusivity towards women in Dragon Ball?

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

As I've been rewatching the original Dragon Ball anime (in Japanese) I started thinking about something that Sean Schmmel said at a panel for the Super Broly movie at NYC. He mentioned that he thought it was a win for feminism that Goku is voiced by a woman into adulthood in Japan. "And, #feminism the voice of Goku being played by a woman all these years. Hello! One of the most legendary characters... In the world." Check the link around 43:07 for direct quote.
[https://youtu.be/0Z4NdlaD3v4?si=p4fNSy9IHOOeriJ1]
Kara Edwards also mentioned in an interview (I don't have this one handy) that she thought it was "inspiring" (or something along those lines) that "one woman can do a job that takes [them] at least 3 or 4 people to do in English." This was in reference to the "East meets West" panel that you can find on YouTube where she got to meet Nozawa and several other JP cast members.
So that got me wondering are there any elements of Dragon Ball that could be considered inclusive towards female audiences? Be it characters, actors, story elements, anything?
Toriyama as a gag writer who's fond of poop and pervert jokes probably wasn't thinking about inclusivity when writing his comic for pre-teen boys, but you never know what ideas can slip through from him, the anime staff, or the cast. It'd be especially helpful if we could hear from some of the female users of Kanzenshuu.
I really hope I haven't put my foot in it on this one.

[Basaku]

Well DBZ Bulma for one, while not a fighter herself she was still a super-core cast member fully involved in the main story and plot developement, with the brains and agency moving the key events forward. Not exactly a 'standard' in storytelling back in the 90s. And unlike Chi-Chi/Videl she wasn't housewife'd and made irrelevant the moment she 'delivered' a new male fighter cast member, on the contrary, she literally packed baby Trunks and flew right into the action (Cell saga opening). That was the one moment I thought "is Toriyama doing it deliberatly to show she's not just gonna spend time at home with diapers from now on?". I doubt he was thinking about this much, sorry not sorry, but deliberately or not, I would say she got quite a few major wins for women inclusivity in DB and made up for the worst parts in early DB

[MasenkoHA]

Kara Edwards also mentioned in an interview (I don't have this one handy) that she thought it was "inspiring" (or something along those lines) that "one woman can do a job that takes [them] at least 3 or 4 people to do in English."

5 actually. 7 if we count Bardock and Tullece

In English we got Stephanie Nadolny/Colleen Clinkenbeard (child Goku and Gohan), Sean Schemmel (Adult Goku), Kyle Hebert (teen/adult Gohan), Kara Edwards (child Goten) Robert McCollum (Adult Goten), Sonny Strait (Burdock), and Chris Patton (Tullece).

And Nozawa does all those roles on her own over in Japan

[JulieYBM]

Women have typically voiced young boy characters since the beginning of the animation industry (and if I knew jackshit about the radio serials of yore, I'd guess back then, too). For the longest time it was probably the most prominent role that women held in Dragon Ball. I know that during the original 1986-1997 run of Dragon Ball animation none of the animation supervisors, storyboard artists or episode directors credited were women. Script Writer Matsui Aya was the first female writer for Dragon Ball, which I think was cool, but I feel like her influence was watered down (or at the very least, she was basically just following the marching orders of those ranking above her).

With Komaki Aya being the first series director (albeit, apparently not the primary) for Dragon Ball with Dragon Ball Daima and Kakihara Yuuko serving as series composer (head writer), I'm definitely looking forward to seeing if we perhaps get a Dragon Ball that endeavors to be more than just awful sexual assault gags and misogynistic jokes.

(Where's my Ishitani Megumi-directed Kale and Caulifla spin-off, Toei?!)

[Cure Dragon 255]

Women have typically voiced young boy characters since the beginning of the animation industry (and if I knew jackshit about the radio serials of yore, I'd guess back then, too). For the longest time it was probably the most prominent role that women held in Dragon Ball. I know that during the original 1986-1997 run of Dragon Ball animation none of the animation supervisors, storyboard artists or episode directors credited were women. Script Writer Matsui Aya was the first female writer for Dragon Ball, which I think was cool, but I feel like her influence was watered down (or at the very least, she was basically just following the marching orders of those ranking above her).

With Komaki Aya being the first series director (albeit, apparently not the primary) for Dragon Ball with Dragon Ball Daima and Kakihara Yuuko serving as series composer (head writer), I'm definitely looking forward to seeing if we perhaps get a Dragon Ball that endeavors to be more than just awful sexual assault gags and misogynistic jokes.

(Where's my Ishitani Megumi-directed Kale and Caulifla spin-off, Toei?!)

I am so glad EXTREMELY TALENTED women are behind this new series. I hope Toei makes this a new normal.

[MasenkoHA]

Women have typically voiced young boy characters since the beginning of the animation industry (and if I knew jackshit about the radio serials of yore, I'd guess back then, too).

Right. As cool as it is that Masako Nozawa got to voice Goku well into giant pecs and abs of steel adulthood, it says more about Toei's unwillingness to change actors when the characters are aged up (or aged down!) than the idealized narrative that Nozawa was just so good that Toei had to look past her being a woman and let her voice an adult male.

]. I know that during the original 1986-1997 run of Dragon Ball animation none of the animation supervisors, storyboard artists or episode directors credited were women. Script Writer Matsui Aya was the first female writer for Dragon Ball, which I think was cool, but I feel like her influence was watered down (or at the very least, she was basically just following the marching orders of those ranking above her). .

This was incredibly common even for female led shows. Naoko Takeuchi commented that the primary difference between her manga and the 90s anime of Sailor Moon was the latter was made mostly by men and had a male perspective. Both Buffy and Xena, despite being regarded as feminist shows of the 90s had male showrunners and mostly male directors and writers (though I think the last two seasons of Buffy at least had a female showrunner)

Obviously it is a good thing more women are being allowed to run things behind the scenes

[Soppa Saia People]

I don't know if I'd say extremely common by the 90s, the 3 other long running Toei shoujo adaptations around that time (Marmalade Boy, Neighborhood Story and Boys Over Flowers), all had primarily female script writers (Aya Matsui and Yumi Kugimiya did all 3, before Reiko Yoshida the GOAT joined for Boys Over Flowers), and a fair amount of other Toei Shoujo shows around that time either had a few amount of women on writing staff (Doremi, Precure 04), or again primarily female writing staff (Ashita No Nadja).

90s Sailor Moon had a decent amount of female staff, but obviously all the directors and most of the writers were men, and yeah the male gaze is real lol, but I think sometimes people overlook the contributions of women who have always been in the industry. It should be much better though, of course.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Women have typically voiced young boy characters since the beginning of the animation industry (and if I knew jackshit about the radio serials of yore, I'd guess back then, too).

Right. As cool as it is that Masako Nozawa got to voice Goku well into giant pecs and abs of steel adulthood, it says more about Toei's unwillingness to change actors when the characters are aged up (or aged down!) than the idealized narrative that Nozawa was just so good that Toei had to look past her being a woman and let her voice an adult male.

I've thought about that myself. I know at the "We are Goku" Panel where Nozawa and Schemmel both interacted publicly for the first time that Nozawa mentioned that she (and by extension Mayumi Tanaka) was the first case of a young boy character being voiced by a woman into adulthood in anime. However I think a lot of that came down to convenience on Toei's part. It just so happens that Nozawa is a great actor who pulled off the part with no trouble.

Obviously it is a good thing more women are being allowed to run things behind the scenes

Also this is a great thing and I don't think anyone will complain about it.

[Basaku]

Women have typically voiced young boy characters since the beginning of the animation industry (and if I knew jackshit about the radio serials of yore, I'd guess back then, too).

Right. As cool as it is that Masako Nozawa got to voice Goku well into giant pecs and abs of steel adulthood, it says more about Toei's unwillingness to change actors when the characters are aged up (or aged down!) than the idealized narrative that Nozawa was just so good that Toei had to look past her being a woman and let her voice an adult male.

I've thought about that myself. I know at the "We are Goku" Panel where Nozawa and Schemmel both interacted publicly for the first time that Nozawa mentioned that she (and by extension Mayumi Tanaka) was the first case of a young boy character being voiced by a woman into adulthood in anime. However I think a lot of that came down to convenience on Toei's part. It just so happens that Nozawa is a great actor who pulled off the part with no trouble.

Obviously it is a good thing more women are being allowed to run things behind the scenes

Also this is a great thing and I don't think anyone will complain about it.

Wouldn't the 'standard' jerkiness of simply paying Nozawa less because she is a woman also come into play here possibly? Versus hiring a more expensive male actor for adult Goku? Unless of course someone can correct me and state that unequal pay was actually NOT an issue in Japan in the 80s/90s/nowadays, but somehow I doubt it

[Jord]

I don't care whether a male character is voiced by a man or a woman, as long as the portrayal fits the character.

There have been many instances where men effectively portrayed women and vice versa. That being said, some of the US dub actors that voice boys do sound forced to me, sounding more like girls that smoked a ton, rather than sounding like a boy character. That's however a casting issue, not a gender issue. Some of the higher paid US actors like Tara Strong, are amazing as boy characters.

[AliTheZombie13]

I believe I read somewhere that Matsui Aya was responsible for writing The Trunks Special, the Afterlife Tournament, and most of the first 40 episodes of GT? If so, I give her my kudos, because those are pretty entertaining stories.

[MasenkoHA]

I believe I read somewhere that Matsui Aya was responsible for writing The Trunks Special, the Afterlife Tournament, and most of the first 40 episodes of GT? If so, I give her my kudos, because those are pretty entertaining stories.

She did indeed write the Afterlife Tournament arc but Hiroshi Toda write the Trunks special

She wrote a decent chunk of the Black Star arc, but best as I can tell not so much after that https://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/gt/dark-dragon-ball/



Side note: It would be nice if we had some sort of guide that had each writer and what episodes they wrote. The Dragon Ball Wikia is obviously useless for stuff like that but maybe the Kanz wiki?

[JulieYBM]

I believe I read somewhere that Matsui Aya was responsible for writing The Trunks Special, the Afterlife Tournament, and most of the first 40 episodes of GT? If so, I give her my kudos, because those are pretty entertaining stories.

She did indeed write the Afterlife Tournament arc but Hiroshi Toda write the Trunks special

She wrote a decent chunk of the Black Star arc, but best as I can tell not so much after that https://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/gt/dark-dragon-ball/



Side note: It would be nice if we had some sort of guide that had each writer and what episodes they wrote. The Dragon Ball Wikia is obviously useless for stuff like that but maybe the Kanz wiki?

If memory serves, Matsui Dragon Ball left to take maternity leave after writing Episode #22.

But yeah, the best resource for checking writers would be the Kanzenshuu Episode List or the Japanese Wikipedia article.

[Kunzait_83]

As I've been rewatching the original Dragon Ball anime (in Japanese) I started thinking about something that Sean Schmmel said at a panel for the Super Broly movie at NYC. He mentioned that he thought it was a win for feminism that Goku is voiced by a woman into adulthood in Japan. "And, #feminism the voice of Goku being played by a woman all these years. Hello! One of the most legendary characters... In the world."

I distinctly recall FUNimation VA's (and this includes Schemmel himself) and staff members being a helluva lot more snarky and dismissive about adult Goku being voiced by a woman in interviews back when FUNimation were originally dubbing the series in the early 00s. Its good to see this attitude shift now, but it also comes across as maybe somewhat disingenuous on their part.

The early to mid 2000s was an incredibly bro-douchey period in U.S. pop culture in general, and FUNimation, as a collective whole, were riding that wave like there was no tomorrow, and that extended even into their attitude toward Goku's Japanese VA at the time in behind the scenes talks whenever the subject came up.

[MasenkoHA]

As I've been rewatching the original Dragon Ball anime (in Japanese) I started thinking about something that Sean Schmmel said at a panel for the Super Broly movie at NYC. He mentioned that he thought it was a win for feminism that Goku is voiced by a woman into adulthood in Japan. "And, #feminism the voice of Goku being played by a woman all these years. Hello! One of the most legendary characters... In the world."

I distinctly recall FUNimation VA's (and this includes Schemmel himself) and staff members being a helluva lot more snarky and dismissive about adult Goku being voiced by a woman in interviews back when FUNimation were originally dubbing the series in the early 00s. Its good to see this attitude shift now, but it also comes across as maybe somewhat disingenuous on their part.

The early to mid 2000s was an incredibly bro-douchey period in U.S. pop culture in general, and FUNimation, as a collective whole, were riding that wave like there was no tomorrow, and that extended even into their attitude toward Goku's Japanese VA at the time in behind the scenes talks whenever the subject came up.

I feel like a lot of it was the Funimation cast being on self defense and insecure mode. The overwhelming opinion they would be hearing online in the early 2000s is that their dub is absolute shit and a dumpster fire. Now that popular opinion has shifted the other direction, what with the kids who grew up on their dub being in their 30s now, they're probably less hostile towards the Japanese version.

[Adamant]

Right. As cool as it is that Masako Nozawa got to voice Goku well into giant pecs and abs of steel adulthood, it says more about Toei's unwillingness to change actors when the characters are aged up (or aged down!) than the idealized narrative that Nozawa was just so good that Toei had to look past her being a woman and let her voice an adult male.

Yeeaaah... not to say anything bad about Nozawa, but they're just kinda praising her for... doing her job the way it was expected of her, and lucking into having landed a role that guaranteed her constant acting work with zero auditioning necessary. It makes them (or rather the production they're part of) look bad more than it makes her look good. Eh.

Also, isn't this Shemmel guy known for getting somewhat butthurt over other actors calling themselves the English voice of Goku? Kinda doubt he actually thinks of himself as so incapable of voicing the character he NEEDS multiple other actors to fill in for him.

Side note: It would be nice if we had some sort of guide that had each writer and what episodes they wrote. The Dragon Ball Wikia is obviously useless for stuff like that but maybe the Kanz wiki?

Japanese wikipedia has that for pretty much every anime series you can think of. Go to an article for a show, find the episode list, expand the list if it's closed, then ctrl+F and write in the staff member's name to get everything they worked on nicely highlighted.

Matsui wrote episode 42, 47, 51, 59, 67, 69, 70, 71, 72, 79, 80, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 117, 119, 124, 125, 135, 146, 147, 151, 162, 162, 163, 167, 168, 171, 189, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 205 and 206 of Z and 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 16, 21 and 22 of GT.

[AliTheZombie13]

I feel like a lot of it was the Funimation cast being on self defense and insecure mode. The overwhelming opinion they would be hearing online in the early 2000s is that their dub is absolute shit and a dumpster fire. Now that popular opinion has shifted the other direction, what with the kids who grew up on their dub being in their 30s now, they're probably less hostile towards the Japanese version.

I would be inclined to agree with you if the English dub of Ghost Stories wasn't a thing.
There was no pre-market, nobody to shit on them for being a shitty dub, and yet they decided to do the most offensive and disrespectful thing ever, disrespecting the source material and the nationality of the people who made it at every turn possible. Some of the very same people still employed by Funimation worked on it. The 2000's were just a different time altogether.

Also, nothing justifies this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFI2iER_WQ0

[GhostEmperorX]

Japanese wikipedia has that for pretty much every anime series you can think of. Go to an article for a show, find the episode list, expand the list if it's closed, then ctrl+F and write in the staff member's name to get everything they worked on nicely highlighted.

Matsui wrote episode 42, 47, 51, 59, 67, 69-72, 79-80, 87-91, 117, 119, 124-125, 135, 146-147, 151, 162-163, 167-168, 171, 189, 195-199, 205-206 of Z and 1, 2, 3, 7-10, 13, 16, 21-22 of GT.

Just as an example of a primary source besides JP Wikipedia or the site, the Great Complete Collection CD booklet also had this information (but up to a certain point), as well as for the Movies and TV specials (ditto).
There's surely more detailed episode lists and credit catalogs than that elsewhere though, for both DB and most any anime. Of course, the episode credit rolls themselves have all that info in the first place.
(As for the emphasis in the quote... I just felt it was the perfect situation to compact things a bit more.)

[MasenkoHA]

I feel like a lot of it was the Funimation cast being on self defense and insecure mode. The overwhelming opinion they would be hearing online in the early 2000s is that their dub is absolute shit and a dumpster fire. Now that popular opinion has shifted the other direction, what with the kids who grew up on their dub being in their 30s now, they're probably less hostile towards the Japanese version.

I would be inclined to agree with you if the English dub of Ghost Stories wasn't a thing.
There was no pre-market, nobody to shit on them for being a shitty dub, and yet they decided to do the most offensive and disrespectful thing ever, disrespecting the source material and the nationality of the people who made it at every turn possible. Some of the very same people still employed by Funimation worked on it. The 2000's were just a different time altogether.

Also, nothing justifies this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFI2iER_WQ0

1. The Ghost Stories dub didn't have shitty incompetent voice acting, cringe dialog (ignore how unfaithful those DBZ dub scripts were they were bad on their own terms) and a god awful replacement score blaring loudly every second

2. I have no idea what the popular opinion of the Ghost Stories dub was back when it came out in 2005 but the series didn't come to America with Dragon Ball Z's level of popularity, I'm sure the sub fans who hated it weren't as much of an online majority as Dragon Ball Z's fandom pre-2007. The dub was also aimed at an older audience more likely to be online to voice their love of the dub, as opposed to the DBZ dubs audience of second and third graders

3. While some of the Ghost Stories cast did go on to do work for Funimation's Dragon Ball dubs that wasn't really until later. Like most of those ADV actors were more from the Kai era anyways

Like I dunno they seem like two completely different things. A (at the time) no name start up company got the license to
biggest kids anime of the early to mid 90s due to neopotism and after 2 seasons decided to cut all ties with the companies who had actual experience (Saban, Pioneer, Ocean Group) to do it themselves. They then proved to be incompetent at every turn except maybe marketing (and really its because Dragon Ball Z sells itself) and that included replacing a cast of veteran cartoon actors with people who at best had some community theater or radio experience and rightfully got shat on until they slowly got better. (And their target audience of seven years got older, got online, and started voicing their nostalgia online)

In Ghost Stories case a significantly less popular anime got licensed by a more respectable anime licensing company that decided to trash the original scripts and go the South Park route .

I'm going to guess the Ghost Stories cast and crew didn't get anything close to the online hate the Funimation team got for DBZ and didn't feel the need to get on the defensive.


ETA: As far as the GT thing that was more on Funimation still on the learning curve of getting better. "Well all these fans online seem to hate Dragon Ball GT we need to do it completely different". Unfortunately different meant "early 2000s try hard pseudo edgy garbage" . The Z dub was shitty due to inexperience and incompetence from people who never did this before, the GT dub was shit due to a misguided marketing strategy

[AliTheZombie13]

I meant more the mentality that anime in general was viewed back then as "budget-quality kid show trash made by Asians."
Dragon Ball Z also has its fair share of mocking the source material with throw-in lines like "This boring staring contest is starting to irritate me!" and that was before the online hate train. I sincerely believe that they didn't think very highly of the thing they were dubbing more than a simple cashcow they could squeeze money out of.