Gotenks(Post-Rosat)>>Goku and Vegeta

[Eu sou Perfeito]

Fusion between Goten and Trunks. (H) It arises when Goku teaches Goten and Trunks the technique of metamorian fusion as the only hope to take down the monster Bû, who boasts of having absolute strength. They manage to master the technique after several failures. They both lock themselves in the room of spirit and time and undergo express training like Gotenks; As a result, they obtain a power that surpasses that of Vegeta and Goku.

Is this statement also present in the Japanese version of Chozenshuu 4?

[Hugo Boss]

The translation goes like this: "The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others."

Pretty sure Goku is not name-dropped in that text, though this is not to say Gotenks hasn’t surpassed Goku as well. It’s only not directly stated there.

[Eu sou Perfeito]

The translation goes like this: "The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others."

Pretty sure Goku is not name-dropped in that text, though this is not to say Gotenks hasn’t surpassed Goku as well. It’s only not directly stated there.

That's why I wanted to know if this quote in the guide's japanese language.

[dbgtFO]

The translation goes like this: "The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others."

Pretty sure Goku is not name-dropped in that text, though this is not to say Gotenks hasn’t surpassed Goku as well. It’s only not directly stated there.

That's why I wanted to know if this quote in the guide's japanese language.

They don't namedrop Goku, because it's blasphemy to state someone is stronger than our Lord and Saviour Goku.
That's why it said others, but when you are stronger than Vegeta, the only one left is Goku and are we to assume Gotenks was weaker than the third strongest so far Gohan, before entering the RoSaT?
How much more can we downplay Gotenks' strength??!

[Jack Bz]

It's incredibly ambiguous wording that's for sure. I take it to mean his base form overtook Vegeta but not Goku, considering it's a picture of his base form.

[VegettoEX]

The original Japanese says "Vegeta-tachi" (as noted, this is like "Vegeta and the others", just pluralizing the group).



Super, mega, unbelievably encourage you to not get hung up on the super-literal implications of stuff like this. It is a broad, general statement meant to get across a large amount of broad, general information in a very short/small amount of space.

AND it's not even JUST that statement that's been cropped out in the initial post; it's a much longer character profile meant to talk about Gotenks in general. Cropping out and picking apart tiny little selections from an entire page's worth of content is not the way to go!

(And just for reference, yes, the original text in Daizenshuu 7 that this is sourced from says the same thing.)

[Hugo Boss]

are we to assume Gotenks was weaker than the third strongest so far Gohan, before entering the RoSaT?

Probably. I think the implication is that Gotenks only does stuff (SS3 and other techniques) proving that he has surpassed Vegeta and Gohan (presumably from the fight against Cell) after his training in the RoSaT, since those two had the SS2 form and Gotenks so far only had showed the regular SS form.

[ZombieVito]

It's incredibly ambiguous wording that's for sure. I take it to mean his base form overtook Vegeta but not Goku, considering it's a picture of his base form.

The statement can't be about base Gotenks since it would contradict itself as he would just need to turn Super Saiyan to surpass Vegeta and not need the the RoSaT training to do it.

P.S. Also, the majority of bios have the character on their base form.

[Lionel]

I don't understand why it would be so hard to believe that Gotenks could overtake his fathers at their strongest. Hybrids have been built up and aggrandised as having incredible potential that can surpass full-fledged Saiyans since the beginning of Z. Now combine that with the intensive training of the ROSAT, even if it's only for a brief time, and the potent effects of fusion.

[super michael]

I don't understand why it would be so hard to believe that Gotenks could overtake his fathers at their strongest. Hybrids have been built up and aggrandised as having incredible potential that can surpass full-fledged Saiyans since the beginning of Z. Now combine that with the intensive training of the ROSAT, even if it's only for a brief time, and the potent effects of fusion.

Goten and Trunks are the only characters that has done training as a fusion, no other character has done that kind of training. They have trained as a fusion and as individuals.
Remember once their fusion is undone, they have to wait 1 hour before they can do their fusion again. So in that time they would train as individuals.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I don’t see why the entry can’t refer to Base Gotenks.
Goku already established that SSJ Gotenks after the 2 days of training would be sufficient to defeating Fat Boo and no indication that Goku wasn’t accurate.
SSJ Gotenks was in the ballpark of SSJ3 tier.

[TobyS]

I don’t see why the entry can’t refer to Base Gotenks.
Goku already established that SSJ Gotenks after the 2 days of training would be sufficient to defeating Fat Boo and no indication that Goku wasn’t accurate.
SSJ Gotenks was in the ballpark of SSJ3 tier.

Knowing the SS multipliers we can deduce:
Goku 1
Ss goku/majin vegeta 50
Ss2goku/majin vegeta 100
Ss3 goku 400

If gotenks pre:
Base gotenks 8
Ss1 gotenks 400
Ss2 gotenks 800
Ss3 gotenks 3,200

So either gotenks got 12.5 times stronger to surpass vegeta in base (or a bit less if he was supposed to be comfortably above ss3 goku.) because he was already easily stronger as a ss1.

If you go with base fusions start at strongest form of the fusees, it also depends how far behind you have the pre kids compared to their parents. 12.5 is the max they needed to grow but could be a lot less.

It's one of the bigger jumps in the series but it's possible.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t see why the entry can’t refer to Base Gotenks.
Goku already established that SSJ Gotenks after the 2 days of training would be sufficient to defeating Fat Boo and no indication that Goku wasn’t accurate.
SSJ Gotenks was in the ballpark of SSJ3 tier.

Because it’s part of a character profile that talks about Gotenks in general. Goku also clarified later he was gambling, so the point was to motivate the kids into completing the fusion technique. Their power was never put to test until the RoSaT.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I don’t see why the entry can’t refer to Base Gotenks.
Goku already established that SSJ Gotenks after the 2 days of training would be sufficient to defeating Fat Boo and no indication that Goku wasn’t accurate.
SSJ Gotenks was in the ballpark of SSJ3 tier.

Because it’s part of a character profile that talks about Gotenks in general. Goku also clarified later he was gambling, so the point was to motivate the kids into completing the fusion technique. Their power was never put to test until the RoSaT.

So worst case, SSJ Gotenks was stronger than Fat boo after ROSAT training but it didn’t matter by that time because Super Boo was already born.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the Daizenshuu 7 only says Vegeta and then Chozenshuu (Which is like a Daizenshuu update) adds Goku to the mix.

Always found this line really weird. Goten and Trunks are super powerful and fusion is super haxed. Gotenks being on Majin Boo's level should be the bare minimum.

I think the "It's about Base Gotenks" is just an excuse people have so they can dismiss that entry without getting into the "are guidebooks valid?" debate.

[theherodjl]

Is fusion necessarily super haxed for everybody though? If you compare Gotenks
with Vegetto/Gogeta, it's not even remotely close. Kibitoshin was also kind of insignificant despite getting a power boost up from simply being Shin.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I think the Daizenshuu 7 only says Vegeta and then Chozenshuu (Which is like a Daizenshuu update) adds Goku to the mix.

Always found this line really weird. Goten and Trunks are super powerful and fusion is super haxed. Gotenks being on Majin Boo's level should be the bare minimum.

I think the "It's about Base Gotenks" is just an excuse people have so they can dismiss that entry without getting into the "are guidebooks valid?" debate.

Maybe it wasn’t referring to Base Gotenks but it wasn’t referring to SSJ3 Gotenks either. That’s too inconsistent with the story told to us.
My take is when we first see SSJ Gotenks pre-ROSAT, he’s almost there, but needs to finish his second day of training to be ready for Fat boo. Instead he finishes the training in the ROSAT and ups his SSJ1 well beyond what was initially planned.

[Beasto]

SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > Fat Boo is pretty obvious in the manga. It was stated, not contradicted, and the story itself shows it. Fat Boo was no problem, but Piccolo only started to stress when Evil Boo was born.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > Fat Boo is pretty obvious in the manga. It was stated, not contradicted, and the story itself shows it. Fat Boo was no problem, but Piccolo only started to stress when Evil Boo was born.

I agree, but I think Gotenks wasn’t necessarily ready his first time going SSJ. Goku said they need two days. They had about a day left when he first goes SSJ.
SSJ Gotenks after two days of training > Fat boo.

[Hugo Boss]

So worst case, SSJ Gotenks was stronger than Fat boo after ROSAT training but it didn’t matter by that time because Super Boo was already born.

Unlikely. There is nothing suggesting SS Gotenks was enough for the task, specially when he needed SS3 to start fighting Super Boo on equal terms. Pretty sure this notion was properly conveyed by Toriyama by subverting the expectations until Gotenks finally revealed something worth the wait.