Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Vegard Aune
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Vegard Aune » Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:09 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:23 amIf what we're seeing now is the result of T&T not having fully drafted the next story yet, I'd rather the manga go on hiatus than suffer as a longform series. Or maybe just end, lol.
If it is that then... that would be kinda strange, being that the series spent the past year adapting content that had already been written, with minimal changes. And I say that as someone who likes that Toyotaro did that but... one would think in that time they would have also been able to draft up an idea for where the story should go next.

I will say that with these "epilogue" chapters still keeping Broly in the mix and also referencing Freeza though, it does feel like they can fairly naturally segue into that Black Freeza arc I still feel the series kind of needs at this point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:13 am

super michael wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:05 amFat and Skinny Gotenks are failed fusion, for when Goten and Trunks does the fusion dance wrong. There is no perfect those forms.
Well I'd sure hate for something funny and subversive to happen in Dragon Ball.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by super michael » Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:22 am

Zephyr wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:13 am
super michael wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:05 amFat and Skinny Gotenks are failed fusion, for when Goten and Trunks does the fusion dance wrong. There is no perfect those forms.
Well I'd sure hate for something funny and subversive to happen in Dragon Ball.
Think of fusion dance as doing the Tai Chi form. if someone does a mistake, then it will feel wrong and won't feel natural.
When someone does it properly it will feel smooth and natural. Going from one move to the next will feel easy.

Now if they discover that there are other fusion dance and perfect that fusion dance, then it should give different result.
They can create fusion power version, speed, balance, etc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zephyr » Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:26 am

super michael wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:22 amThink of fusion dance as doing the Tai Chi form. if someone does a mistake, then it will feel wrong and won't feel natural.
When someone does it properly it will feel smooth and natural. Going from one move to the next will feel easy.

Now if they discover that there are other fusion dance and perfect that fusion dance, then it should give different result.
They can create fusion power version, speed, balance, etc.
Yeah, it should feel wrong and unnatural.

But Fat Gotenks beats the odds and finds a way.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 21, 2024 12:23 pm

When do Goten and Trunks do the version of fusion that turns them into girls for the rest of the franchise?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:19 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 12:23 pm When do Goten and Trunks do the version of fusion that turns them into girls for the rest of the franchise?
Luckily never.

Anyway I think it’s really cool that Goten (and Trunks) got to name Ultimate. Goten getting defensive over it being a cool name was fun too

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:28 pm

They should've had Goten and Trunks just fight separately, this would have been a far better time to actually build on their characterization. Instead, we got...more dumb shit.
Dbzfan94 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:19 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 12:23 pm When do Goten and Trunks do the version of fusion that turns them into girls for the rest of the franchise?
Luckily never.

Anyway I think it’s really cool that Goten (and Trunks) got to name Ultimate. Goten getting defensive over it being a cool name was fun too
Turning into a girl is better than being an insulting, embarassing stereotype, which Toriyama, Toyo-tarou and V-JUMP editorial seem obsessed with repeating as if it is anything but just bad.

Actually, turning into a girl is better than anything. :p
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by super michael » Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:36 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:28 pm They should've had Goten and Trunks just fight separately, this would have been a far better time to actually build on their characterization. Instead, we got...more dumb shit.
Dbzfan94 wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 4:19 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 12:23 pm When do Goten and Trunks do the version of fusion that turns them into girls for the rest of the franchise?
Luckily never.

Anyway I think it’s really cool that Goten (and Trunks) got to name Ultimate. Goten getting defensive over it being a cool name was fun too
Turning into a girl is better than being an insulting, embarassing stereotype, which Toriyama, Toyo-tarou and V-JUMP editorial seem obsessed with repeating as if it is anything but just bad.

Actually, turning into a girl is better than anything. :p
We did see Goten and Trunks skill grow while they were fighting as individual. Gohan was even impressed with their skills and powers.
As for their fusion they still need to practice more, which is not a problem.

There is no fusion technique that changes the gender of the user. Right now it is either success or fail.
If Bra and Pan fuse they will be female, if Goten and Trunks fuse they will be male.

There is no fusion that will make Caulifla and Kale male.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Wed Feb 21, 2024 5:53 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:41 am
Mr Baggins wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2024 11:43 am I didn't really care for this chapter otherwise. 50+ pages of pointless sparring does not a Toriyama-crafted DB make.

Toyo my boyo, get to the premise of the next arc or at least conclude the manga if there's no story left to tell. This is aimless and tacked on.
These are all good, unassailable points.
I think the issue here is: I get the impression that Toyo and Toei have no real idea where this story is supposed to go. Like I constantly harp on the idea that Toriyama made a lot of DBZ up as he went a long, he still was able to maintain momentum within the story. That's just not what's happening here. I also enjoyed this chapter because I thought it focused on a strength still prevalent even in DBS--its charcters. But this is absolutely spinning its wheels as opposed to feeling like a proper prologue to whatever is the next arc. And the only thing that makes this all make sense is that no one honestly knows where to go from here. That's the only thing that makes "Following up Black Frieza with a year long adaptation of Dragon Ball Super" make sense.

There's no story here, but we DBS sells decently so we need to make more manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:42 pm

The major issue being, I think, is that Toriyama is obssessed with setting up rules for handicapping himself with the types of stories he'll tell, and Toyo-tarou, Victory Uchida, and anyone else involved with the franchise, refuses to actually think about breaking those rules.

Like, literally, anyone could have used "Goten and Trunks spar with Gohan" as a springboard to examine how they relate to fighting, and how their relationship to fighting differs from Gohan, and Gokuu. Like, yeah, we get Goten and Trunks saying that they have their own things that they want to defend, but what does that mean? You have 45 pages, that's plenty to examining what they mean by that.

I'm dying! I'm dehydrated! And it's not because I take diuretics! This is basic writing shit, and something an editor should be bringing out of their writer.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Feb 21, 2024 6:50 pm

Reading this chapter was quite surreal. The Super manga has had its share of meta wink-and-nods towards the fandom, but this felt like a rare opportunity for Toyotaro to throw his hands in the air and show fans what they've been begging for. Add to that an official canonisation of the name 'Ultimate Gohan'. I half-expected him to reply "thank you for coming up with that, Goten (Teen)". While gratuitous fanservice is usually a turn-off for me, the whole premise of Ultra Instinct vs Beast, a powerscaling debate people have been speculating ever since Super Hero came out, undeniably gets people turning pages. Goku's curt impatience to get the match on already also feels strangely meta. It feels like Toyotaro needs to stop playing coy and shoot some of those Chekhov guns that have been laying their motionless, unfired for years, otherwise people will just lose interest. If Toriyama, in a rare flash of foresight, wanted to plant the seeds for a future plot beat, you knew you wouldn't have to wait years and years for it to sprout. I've been peddling the narrative that Toyotaro doesn't know where the hell the story's going for ages now, but this chapter gives me some hope that there is a rudimentary plan for the comic's future, even if we don't know it yet.

Sadly, some of that annoying coyness could still be found here. Pulling a bait-and-switch with Goten and Trunks wasn't entirely unenjoyable though, in fact the choreography was nice and dynamic (side note, is it me or do all the characters look thinner again, like in the earliest chapters?). While Gohan having not lost his touch is a given, it's cool to see some assurance that Goten and Trunks, while still green in many ways, can still be formidable when they quit wasting movement on flashy attacks. However, the return of Fat Gotenks only elicited a pained groan. What's really frustrating is that Toyotaro is capable of good comedy. The Future Trunks arc, for all its violence and bleakness, had some of the funniest gags in the series. Fat people aren't funny. Dumb poses aren't funny. What even is the punchline? That said, the idea of Goku loading his kids and Trunks into a hostile stranger's car and teleporting it to Beerus's planet with hostile strangers still inside got a chuckle out of me. Carmine and #15 definitely have a role to play, much like Mr. Satan after being transported to the Kaioshin Realm. While everyone is distracted by the Saiyan sparring action, perhaps they burglarise Beerus's quarters and find some magical gadgetry they could bring back to Earth.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by onefinegent » Wed Feb 21, 2024 9:50 pm

I'm seeing some... odd expectations about the series going forward (both here and on other dragon boards I frequent), I don't think people understand that this manga is both contained by and is rapidly coming to EoZ territory. I think this interaction here is what's going to get Goku and Vegata back on Earth, since they're clearly going to want to get Goten and Reunks back into fighting shape (where we see them in EoZ). Plus I think Goten and Trunks are going to get lectured soon about overly relying on fusion, and not on their own strengths.

Honestly, I'm going to say my hunch right now, feel free to say whatever once it's proven wrong though, lol; I think Broly is going to go through the SSG ritual, and whis is going to want to train him solo to get him up to Goku and Vegetas level (and beerus is due for one of his naps as well), this is going to lead us to the next tournament where we meet with Uub. After that, then I think we'll touch on Black freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Wed Feb 21, 2024 11:59 pm

So... nothing happened... okay.
But what do I know, "You watch Dragon Ball for the fights!"
It's there, I guess.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rafa Fast » Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:41 am

Maybe it was an ironic comment, but if Dragon Ball really was just about fights then I don't think I would care about this series
I read/watch it because of the adventures and stories, and I didn't see a adventure or a story being told here, just fights with bland choreography and a very uninteresting use of techniques (again, excluding the zanzoken) with an unnecessary waste of pages, if the plans for a part of the story is to just show fights then I want to see something that is really interesting, like, well, literally all the Tournament Sagas
The amount of variety they have really entertain me a lot, heck, Goku vs Ma Junior is my favorite fight in the franchise.
Here I feel like they're just stalling as much as possible for the new arc to begin. I think that onefinegent's comment talking about why this fight was shown makes sense and I even understand it, but I don't particularly feel an impact because this "new generation" hasn't hit me yet, I like Goten, Trunks and Pan but they still didn't convince me (and the first two already got a lot of spotlight in the Boo Saga)
I still prefer the old folks Yamcha, Kuririn and Tenshinhan.

Anyway, I didn't dislike the chapter or anything, but it's definitely a chapter that I wouldn't mind to skip, I hope that when it's animated they make it more interesting, make these kids use at least a Kamehameha.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:30 am

I hate how, every time now after Goku’s fight with Granolah, his UI has been depicted as simply a generic power-up. Gohan's Beast form is just that, a monstrous raw numbers boost that somehow puts him on the level of gods, kinda like Jiren's strength. But as the Granolah arc clarified, Goku’s silver-hair is a form that Goku needed, at first, to use UI, but that he doesn't need anymore. He used UI in SSJ and in SSB against Granolah.

So...

Is Beast just that same form just without UI? Like, someone help me out here, I'm serious, without the autonomous movement, how is Goku’s "UI form" any different from Beast?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:19 am

Ziegander wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:30 am I hate how, every time now after Goku’s fight with Granolah, his UI has been depicted as simply a generic power-up. Gohan's Beast form is just that, a monstrous raw numbers boost that somehow puts him on the level of gods, kinda like Jiren's strength. But as the Granolah arc clarified, Goku’s silver-hair is a form that Goku needed, at first, to use UI, but that he doesn't need anymore. He used UI in SSJ and in SSB against Granolah.

So...

Is Beast just that same form just without UI? Like, someone help me out here, I'm serious, without the autonomous movement, how is Goku’s "UI form" any different from Beast?
I mean... Yeah. Without the bigger boost in numbers, what's the difference from SS1 to SS3? Or God and Blue?

You're not wrong there, at the end of the day, the Silver-haired UI is both Goku's best way to use UI and his biggest number boost. If you take UI away from it, it's just another transformation like Freeza's and Cell's forms, the Super Saiyans, etc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:51 am

My point is, against Gas with "True UI," or whatever, and now even with "Mastered UI" against Gohan, he hasn't been fighting any different than anyone else. He hasn't been fighting like he did even when he debuted Omen against Jiren or like when he "mastered" "UI" against Moro. He doesn't seem to be utilizing autonomous movement, so with Goku and Gohan fighting evenly matched, Goku’s "best trick," especially given they both have silver hair, his and Gohan's forms seem functionally, if not literally, the same.

I'd love to get more information on wtf "Beast" is, but by the arc it just seems like UI is becoming more and more nonsensical.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:15 pm

Beast doesn't need an explanation of any kind. Or rather, it's right there in the original series.

It's just Gohan's rage gimmick given form, hence the name. That's about as self-explanatory as it gets.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by super michael » Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:23 pm

Here are the transformations advantages:

UI
- Automatic dodge
- Automatic harden their body
- Avatar
- Others can't sense if they lack God Ki (Yardratian couldn't sense Goku ki)
- Stats increase

UE
- Stats increase
- Power increase the more that they get hit
- Others can't sense if they lack God Ki

Beast
- Stats increase

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alkiser » Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:23 pm

super michael wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:23 pm Here are the transformations advantages:

UI
- Automatic dodge
- Automatic harden their body
- Avatar
- Others can't sense if they lack God Ki (Yardratian couldn't sense Goku ki)
- Stats increase

UE
- Stats increase
- Power increase the more that they get hit
- Others can't sense if they lack God Ki

Beast
- Stats increase

No, why do you have to mantra over and over that Ultra Ego is about boosting your fighting spirit and then your strength grows. Receiving damage is just a way to spark one's fighting spirit and not the actual way transformation works.

Vegeta said this in the 75th chapter that the more his fighting spirit burns the stronger he becomes in this form and later V-Jump guides confirmed this.

https://twitter.com/Micha96870542/statu ... Cvk5w&s=19

https://twitter.com/Micha96870542/statu ... qanbQ&s=19

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