Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

[Alkiser]

Here are the transformations advantages:

UI
- Automatic dodge
- Automatic harden their body
- Avatar
- Others can't sense if they lack God Ki (Yardratian couldn't sense Goku ki)
- Stats increase

UE
- Stats increase
- Power increase the more that they get hit
- Others can't sense if they lack God Ki

Beast
- Stats increase

No, why do you have to mantra over and over that Ultra Ego is about boosting your fighting spirit and then your strength grows. Receiving damage is just a way to spark one's fighting spirit and not the actual way transformation works.

Vegeta said this in the 75th chapter that the more his fighting spirit burns the stronger he becomes in this form and later V-Jump guides confirmed this.

https://twitter.com/Micha96870542/statu ... Cvk5w&s=19

https://twitter.com/Micha96870542/statu ... qanbQ&s=19

Damage is not a feature of the technique just not a way to maximize its effects.

[picc]

I hate how, every time now after Goku’s fight with Granolah, his UI has been depicted as simply a generic power-up. Gohan's Beast form is just that, a monstrous raw numbers boost that somehow puts him on the level of gods, kinda like Jiren's strength. But as the Granolah arc clarified, Goku’s silver-hair is a form that Goku needed, at first, to use UI, but that he doesn't need anymore. He used UI in SSJ and in SSB against Granolah.

So...

Is Beast just that same form just without UI? Like, someone help me out here, I'm serious, without the autonomous movement, how is Goku’s "UI form" any different from Beast?

Man, I feel this post so much. Even though Goku's trained in it for 2 years and it makes sense that he can just activate it quickly, I still would have even liked to see his transformation against Gohan to have a little flair and production. It seems no different than super saiyan white or something at the moment.

Saying that, there's a whole other chapter to look forward to. Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised by his auto dodging then.

[super michael]

Here are the transformations advantages:

UI
- Automatic dodge
- Automatic harden their body
- Avatar
- Others can't sense if they lack God Ki (Yardratian couldn't sense Goku ki)
- Stats increase

UE
- Stats increase
- Power increase the more that they get hit
- Others can't sense if they lack God Ki

Beast
- Stats increase

No, why do you have to mantra over and over that Ultra Ego is about boosting your fighting spirit and then your strength grows. Receiving damage is just a way to spark one's fighting spirit and not the actual way transformation works.

Vegeta said this in the 75th chapter that the more his fighting spirit burns the stronger he becomes in this form and later V-Jump guides confirmed this.

https://twitter.com/Micha96870542/statu ... Cvk5w&s=19

https://twitter.com/Micha96870542/statu ... qanbQ&s=19

Thanks for letting me know, for some reason I thought it was the injury that powered Vegeta up. So it is Vegeta fighting spirit that powers him up.

[Ziegander]

Don't get me wrong, I love Gohan, and I'm as excited about his Beast form as Goku is, but, if Beast really is just his rage ramped up to 11... it's just super saiyan 5 and that's so disappointing given the path he's taken to get here. What happened to finding a path to an ultimate form apart from his Saiyan heritage? What happened to embracing his human side? If it's functionally identical to just a really powerful SSJ form, and that's not just what appears to be, that's what Goku himself thought it was, that's, honestly, just bad writing.

And by the same token, UI has just become this complete asspull bullshit form + technique, it doesn't follow it's own rules, it doesn't work the way it just did the arc before, for three consecutive arcs now, and it's becoming more watered-down and and more asspulled as they keep writing it. They just make up new rules for it every chapter it feels like. Here it just looks like, just like Gohan's Beast, any old super saiyan form. We're supposed to be past that by now.

[Thani]

Don't get me wrong, I love Gohan, and I'm as excited about his Beast form as Goku is, but, if Beast really is just his rage ramped up to 11... it's just super saiyan 5 and that's so disappointing given the path he's taken to get here. What happened to finding a path to an ultimate form apart from his Saiyan heritage? What happened to embracing his human side? If it's functionally identical to just a really powerful SSJ form, and that's not just what appears to be, that's what Goku himself thought it was, that's, honestly, just bad writing.

And by the same token, UI has just become this complete asspull bullshit form + technique, it doesn't follow it's own rules, it doesn't work the way it just did the arc before, for three consecutive arcs now, and it's becoming more watered-down and and more asspulled as they keep writing it. They just make up new rules for it every chapter it feels like. Here it just looks like, just like Gohan's Beast, any old super saiyan form. We're supposed to be past that by now.

Honestly, this. Ultra Instinct being an actual saiyan transformation is unbelievably stupid. The same with Ultra Ego. It's supposed to be the culmination of their recent path of power (angel power for Goku and destruction power for Vegeta). If they're merely saiyan forms, and their main abilities can be used outside of it (instead of them assuming these appearences when using said powers), then they really just serve to act as power ups. No different from Super Saiyan.

To be fair, the god forms suffer from this same problem too.

[LoganForkHands73]

If they're merely saiyan forms, and their main abilities can be used outside of it (instead of them assuming these appearences when using said powers), then they really just serve to act as power ups. No different from Super Saiyan.

To be fair, the god forms suffer from this same problem too.

Sadly, this was always the destined fate of Ultra Instinct, it's the nature of the beast (the franchise, not Gohan's form ) that the last big transformation will eventually be homogenised into just another form for Goku to cycle through. Categorising the silver-haired form as a Saiyan form does feel incongruous and I'd prefer if it was how Ultra Instinct manifests in all mortals, which was alluded to be the case when Moro absorbed Merus's power and his fur became pale. I guess it is consistent with how Saiyan power-ups tend to manifest with new hair colours and volume.

I'd say Ultra Instinct still has some unique flair and gravitas, but it was established from the start that there's more to the form than just "dodging good" (seriously side-eyeing the Super Strength Discussion thread rn), and the ultimate goal is to be able to fight at peak condition at all times. The endgame would've seen Goku essentially acting and fighting as he always has. If Ultra Instinct is more of a guiding philosophy of "moving well", I suppose there isn't much meaningful difference between it and Muten Roshi's simulacrum seen in the Tournament of Power.

[Mr Baggins]

if Beast really is just his rage ramped up to 11... it's just super saiyan 5 and that's so disappointing given the path he's taken to get here. What happened to finding a path to an ultimate form apart from his Saiyan heritage?

I implore you to read the original run.

Parodies and the anime aside, in Toriyama's manga, the idea of "rage boosting" was always Gohan's unique path. Goku and Vegeta getting angry is often presented as ineffective throughout the series, the sole exception being when they initially achieved Super Saiyan 1. On the other hand, the story specifically frames Gohan's enraged awakenings as a mysterious power that none of the other characters ever really understood. It's been like this since his introduction in the Saiyan arc.

It's the reason his potential is so limitless; when he doesn't have access to magical latent strength unlocks from elder Namekians and elder Kais, he just needs to snap one good time and suddenly he's above everyone again. Beast is just Toriyama going "huh, I wonder what it'd be like to represent Gohan's inner beastly power as a transformation in itself". Don't overthink it.

Spoiler:

The "bad writing" part is Super Hero recycling a bunch of Cell Games imagery with it, but I digress.

As for Ultra Instinct, I'd wait for next month's chapter before passing judgment. I haven't been a fan of the narrative turning it into Super Saiyan Silver since the Granolah arc, myself, but now that Goku's emotional state isn't perturbed as it was then, best to wait and see. Otherwise, that ship sailed years ago.

[LoganForkHands73]

I implore you to read the original run.

Parodies and the anime aside, in Toriyama's manga, the idea of "rage boosting" was always Gohan's unique path. Goku and Vegeta getting angry is often presented as ineffective throughout the series, the sole exception being when they initially achieved Super Saiyan 1. On the other hand, the story specifically frames Gohan's enraged awakenings as a mysterious power that none of the other characters ever really understood.

It's the reason his potential is so limitless; when he doesn't have access to magical latent strength unlocks from elder Namekians and elder Kais, he just needs to snap one good time and suddenly he's above everyone again. Beast is just Toriyama going "huh, I wonder what it'd be like to represent that inner beastly power as a transformation in itself". Don't overthink it.

Spoiler:

The "bad writing" part is Super Hero using that form as a shallow throwback to Cell Games imagery, but I digress.

Yeah, I've always felt Toriyama's simple explanation was more than enough. Beast is just another dramatic manifestation of Gohan being a very angry boy. It was there when Raditz picked on his father, when Freeza was torturing Piccolo with death beams, and when Cell crushed Android #16's head. Some speculate that Beast is some unforeseen side effect of Elder Kaioshin's ritual, which was purely about unleashing his hidden potential with magic (again), but that implies it's some divine, external thing thrust upon him. I prefer it as something internal and unique to Gohan, almost like his Hulk - a powerful 'protector' persona manifesting whenever he feels intense, righteous fury and helplessness at the sight of innocents in harm's way.

[The Monkey King]

The "bad writing" part is Super Hero recycling a bunch of Cell Games imagery with it, but I digress.

But at it's core that will always be the issue with Beast, you can't let a genie out of its bottle twice. Toriyama already gave Gohan a transformation which paid off all of his rage boosts during the Cell Games.

It's why he had no more rage boost transformations in the Buu saga, it became a plot point that he couldn't when he fought Dabura and why Toriyama decided to have his potential unlocked... but this time beyond his limits or whatever.

Even in BoG and RoF there were no allusions to Gohan still having this massive latent potential ready to be awakened by rage, hell Vegeta stole Gohan's rage boosting gimmick with the "My Bulma!" scene in BoG.

Beast Gohan is just lazy beyond words can describe, a true Jump the Shark moment, there's nothing interesting or narratively satisfying about it.

That goes to UI in this chapter too. Both forms are just super saiyan now. Goku's zen martial arts mastery he exhibited while using UI before was absent as was Gohan's more "bestial" cocky attitude he presented and had to keep in check when facing Cell Max in the Super Hero movie.

[Alkiser]

The "bad writing" part is Super Hero recycling a bunch of Cell Games imagery with it, but I digress.

But at it's core that will always be the issue with Beast, you can't let a genie out of its bottle twice. Toriyama already gave Gohan a transformation which paid off all of his rage boosts during the Cell Games.

It's why he had no more rage boost transformations in the Buu saga, it became a plot point that he couldn't when he fought Dabura and why Toriyama decided to have his potential unlocked... but this time beyond his limits or whatever.

Even in BoG and RoF there were no allusions to Gohan still having this massive latent potential ready to be awakened by rage, hell Vegeta stole Gohan's rage boosting gimmick with the "My Bulma!" scene in BoG.

Beast Gohan is just lazy beyond words can describe, a true Jump the Shark moment, there's nothing interesting or narratively satisfying about it.

That goes to UI in this chapter too. Both forms are just super saiyan now. Goku's zen martial arts mastery he exhibited while using UI before was absent as was Gohan's more "bestial" cocky attitude he presented and had to keep in check when facing Cell Max in the Super Hero movie.

Nah Gohan Beast had its use what was the complement of learning from Piccolo which was that how to use its full potential at will, but also how to control it. Everything came full circle. Piccolo told Gohan in the anime that in order to control his hidden power, he needed to focus on fighting with a warrior's mentality, and explained to him why Gohan failed in both the Buu saga and the Cella saga during their training in the DBS anime, he promised him that he would help him use his full potential at will, so he achieved both of his goals.


A great example of this lesson is when Gohan achieved SSJ 2 he got carried away with his arrogance which Goku paid with his life, or how through his arrogance he mocked Buu and set Gotenks against him which got revenge on him in the form of Buutenks. Post SH Gohan is already a complete character who has not only learned to use his full potential, but also efficiently uses the warrior mentality he lacked, and this is what Beast Gohan represents.

Jordan Lee explained it very well

https://twitter.com/JordanLDurham/statu ... wntmA&s=19

[Mr Baggins]

It was explicitly shown back on Namek that unlocking Gohan's potential doesn't make his rage power-ups obsolete. The series never implies that, nor does it suggest he couldn't pursue that avenue again if he wanted; he doesn't do it in the Boo arc because he's rusty at that point and exploding in anger isn't something that came naturally to his character.

With Piccolo's training, he can now trigger his rage more easily at will. It's totally possible to delve further into the concept without just regurgitating the Cell arc's story beats the same way that Super Hero did, even if only to put a new spin on that broad idea.

Prematurely judging the mechanics of a fight that's just barely begun is just as silly as people routinely freaking out every month over out-of-context leaks. It won't kill some of y'all to wait for the next chapter.

[Alkiser]

It was explicitly shown back on Namek that unlocking Gohan's potential doesn't make his rage power-ups obsolete. The series never implies that, nor does it suggest he couldn't pursue that avenue again if he wanted; he doesn't do it in the Boo arc because he's rusty at that point and exploding in anger isn't something that came naturally to his character.

With Piccolo's training, he can now trigger his rage more easily at will. It's totally possible to delve further into the concept without just regurgitating the Cell arc's story beats the same way that Super Hero did, even if only to put a new spin on that broad idea.

Prematurely judging the mechanics of a fight that's just barely begun is just as silly as people routinely freaking out every month over out-of-context leaks. It won't kill some of y'all to wait for the next chapter.

I don't even need to judge too much especially since Gohan didn't play with Cell max like he did with the original and went straight to the point of killing him.

[TKA]

But at it's core that will always be the issue with Beast, you can't let a genie out of its bottle twice. Toriyama already gave Gohan a transformation which paid off all of his rage boosts during the Cell Games.

I agree with this.

And then he did it again with Elder Kai unleashing Gohan's truest potential. That was meant to be the final payoff.

This makes a lot more sense though when you remember SuperHero was originally supposed to be a Piccolo story, and then Toriyama rewrote it to include Gohan. Toriyama didn't have Gohan in his plans, and the way marketing works is you need a shiny new form to sell figures, so he probably just went "eh, fuck it, he gets mad and gets stronger."

But that's Super in general. It doesn't exist because there was a story that needed to be told; it exists because Dragonball prints money. We are mining content from a series that ended 30 years ago. Certain concessions will have to be made to keep getting these fun Toriyama stories.

[Miracles]

I hate how, every time now after Goku’s fight with Granolah, his UI has been depicted as simply a generic power-up. Gohan's Beast form is just that, a monstrous raw numbers boost that somehow puts him on the level of gods, kinda like Jiren's strength. But as the Granolah arc clarified, Goku’s silver-hair is a form that Goku needed, at first, to use UI, but that he doesn't need anymore. He used UI in SSJ and in SSB against Granolah.

So...

Is Beast just that same form just without UI? Like, someone help me out here, I'm serious, without the autonomous movement, how is Goku’s "UI form" any different from Beast?

My point is, against Gas with "True UI," or whatever, and now even with "Mastered UI" against Gohan, he hasn't been fighting any different than anyone else. He hasn't been fighting like he did even when he debuted Omen against Jiren or like when he "mastered" "UI" against Moro. He doesn't seem to be utilizing autonomous movement, so with Goku and Gohan fighting evenly matched, Goku’s "best trick," especially given they both have silver hair, his and Gohan's forms seem functionally, if not literally, the same.

I'd love to get more information on wtf "Beast" is, but by the arc it just seems like UI is becoming more and more nonsensical.

Goku's UI is different from Beast because you need UI to even attain the Silver-haired form. Beast does not have UI. The Silver Haired form is Goku's best version of UI. Whis stated it is necessary when he has to surpass his limits for a battle [CH.71]. However, right now Goku has not mastered controlling his emotions the way Whis does. Remember there are levels of mastery with UI. Back in CH. 68, Whis said just wielding UI is not the goal but deepening the skill to use it is. Saying; he has better control over UI than Merus and in turn the Grand Priest is better with UI than he is. Therefore it's exactly why UI Silver has been looking the same aesthetically in fights, his mastery over it needs work. Which is why Goku has compensated with True UI [UI Sign] where he can use his emotions, contrary to Silver-haired UI [no emotions], giving him a bigger boost in power right now.

[Zephyr]

We are mining content from a series that ended 30 years ago.

Yeah, I don't know exactly what people are expecting from Super, on the whole. It, like GT before it, is a superfluous 'victory lap' after the ending happened. This is all bonus content. Post-game. That the series ended, and ended decades ago, means the enterprise is inherently one of nostalgia-mining. And if they're going to do that, they might as well put something of a spin on it.

Like Beast Gohan. Yeah, yeah, it's Cell Games Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. But exaggerated as fuck to the point that it looks silly. Yet it's still played straight. That's funny to me in the same way that Super Saiyan 3 is funny to me.

Hot take: Dragon Ball being funny is a good thing.

[JulieYBM]

dragon ball super should break dragon ball rules (and actually be edited like a proper and actually good comic),

[Zephyr]

Well they better ditch Toyble then lmao

[SupremeKai25]

We are mining content from a series that ended 30 years ago.

It, like GT before it, is a superfluous 'victory lap' after the ending happened. This is all bonus content. Post-game.

For GT? Sure. For DBS? Not really.

The DBS era is literally going on for longer than the Original era, and the executives are planning to continue releasing content for the next 10 years too.

The DBS era will literally last twice as long as the Original era, if not even longer.

What kind of videogame has "bonus """superfluous""" content" that is just as long as the main game (and will potentially be twice as long)?

[Koitsukai]

They are not talking about longevity or quantity but quality, and they have a point.

[Zephyr]

Well, no, I'm talking about what's necessary. Dragon Ball is a complete story. Nothing in Super was/is necessary; it's effectively a side-story taking place during a timeskip in Dragon Ball's story. It is the Optional Comedic Sequel™.

It going on longer than the original run (or having someone's absolute favorite Dragon Ball character ever, like Zamasu) is irrelevant.