Dragon Ball Without Its Creator

[Innagadadavida]

Toriyama's sudden and tragic passing has been on my mind all morning. I've been reading everyone's thoughts on this thread, and it's very moving to see everyone expressing their condolences and grief over the loss of a truly one-of-a-kind storyteller.

I'm curious to hear from others about what the expectations are for the future of Dragon Ball without Toriyama. Many have already expressed that this is the end of Dragon Ball for them personally, but we all know there are projects in the works. Most of them, as far as we know, had considerable input from Toriyama himself. In addition to that, the author of the Super Manga, Toyataro has been Toriyama's de-facto protege and shepherd of the series for decades already. We can almost be certain that Toriyama's passing does not mean Dragon Ball will have no more media.

We know that Dragon Ball Daima will be the last piece of Dragon Ball media that Toriyama worked on. That will make it very special from a fan perspective and a historical perspective... But looking beyond that... What might we see? Will there be more movies? Will the Manga exclsuive story arcs be adapted to animation? Does Toyataro have what it takes to keep the tone and designs of the Dragon Ball universe in line?

Rest in Peace Toriyama! He was one of the greats and I'll forever miss his signature brand of humor and style.

[Yuji]

I can see a plethora of new projects being announced over the next few years or just the series dying off again after Daima. There's no way to know.

[Thanos]

I honestly feel like animating the remainder of Super manga is more likely than ever now after however much they have done of Daima. I don’t know how you just actually don’t animate the last Dragon Ball thing he was involved with (as far as we know) that hasn’t been animated yet. For all we know he was planning to drop a new film or mini series every few years, but now there’s been a hard stop on that so it seems like the lowest hanging fruit at this point.

[MasenkoHA]

As much as Dragon Ball is a collaboration franchise it seems weird to do the series without Toriyama. Even GT and the pre-BOG movies had Toriyama contributing character designs. And we know the Japanese cast is aging. And discussions about replacing Nozawa are just so tiring and now seem tactless.

I am more than okay with Dragon Ball Daima being the curtain call on the franchise. The Super television series had a decent enough ending that there weren't really any major loose ends up to wrap up. I have no idea where the Super manga or the Super Heroes promo anime are at (nor do I particularly care). Let Dragon Ball Daima be the final Kamehameha and take solace in the fact that few franchise can claim to have content spread out over 40 years.

[SupremeKai25]

Even before his passing, I have been saying that Super should end soon.

In my opinion, Super should have ended with the Anime ToP arc. Keep the Broly movie as a tie-in with the end and then move on to EOZ. It was a perfect kind of ending, with Goku finally surpassing the mortal stronger than the Gods and earning Beerus' respect, in a Multiversal tournament to decide the fate of all the Universes. That is final arc material.

Now I think that Super nears its conclusion. For how long can they feasibly milk Beerus as a moving goalpost? I have suspected that Toriyama planned to wrap up Super for quite a while, why else such a significant timeskip for the Super Hero movie?

I predict that the next arc will be the final arc of the Super series, where Goku finally kills Black Frieza and defeats Beerus in a rematch, then an EOZ mini-arc to wrap up everything.

For the sake of completeness and to respect the Author's wishes, Toei should definitely animate the remaining Manga arcs (since Toriyama had inputs on them, even if limited).

I'm not saying that Dragon Ball should end, I do predict Toyotaro to start his own series. Just that the series called "Super" has been overstaying its welcome for quite a while. The ever-moving goalpost of Beerus is getting tiring and they're just recycling everything.

I say: Wrap up Super and move on to a new series (Daima and whatever Toyotaro will cook, Post-EoZ possibly).

[Innagadadavida]

I say: Wrap up Super and move on to a new series (Daima and whatever Toyotaro will cook, Post-EoZ possibly).

I wonder what a new Dragon Ball series would even be like? We have so many examples of what happens to Dragon Ball when Toriyama is not involved in the development. Many of the Z movies, filler episodes and arcs in the anime, *shudders* Dragon Ball Evolution... Without Toriyama, things just don't feel... like Dragon Ball. I think Toriyama stepping up and taking a more active role in producing Battle of Gods is the perfect example of why Dragon Ball needs his participation and his voice.

Has Toyotaro been immersed in Toriyama's sensibilities for long enough to deliver something that doesn't feel like filler? As much as I enjoyed some aspects of the Super manga's final two arcs, I definitely feel like Toriyama took more of a GT-style role for those storylines. That is to say, it doesn't feel like something Toriyama would write. But I could be wrong. It might just be my bias.

[Luso Saiyan]

That there will be more Dragon Ball is evident. It's a very profitable franchise. But I personally won't really care about it. Sure, I'll play some video game that's based on the franchise if I feel like it, but as far as story goes, I won't watch or read anything to learn more about Dragon Ball, because that's something that I think only Toriyama can provide with any sort of legitimacy and authenticity. I wouldn't have cared about Battle of Gods if I didn't learn about Toriyama's involvement at the time. Same for everything else that came after.

Toyotaro may have worked with Toriyama but it's almost evident from his works what comes from him and what doesn't. Even if his artistic sensibilities were virtually the same as Toriyama's (and they aren't), it still wouldn't be the same.

My only hope is that Shueisha & co. is more open and specific from now on about what aspects did come from Toriyama, what Toriyama established but has never seen the light of the day, and, of course, reveal more of Toriyama's art that we know he developed for both past and future projects.

[SupremeKai25]

I say: Wrap up Super and move on to a new series (Daima and whatever Toyotaro will cook, Post-EoZ possibly).

I wonder what a new Dragon Ball series would even be like? We have so many examples of what happens to Dragon Ball when Toriyama is not involved in the development. Many of the Z movies, filler episodes and arcs in the anime, *shudders* Dragon Ball Evolution... Without Toriyama, things just don't feel... like Dragon Ball. I think Toriyama stepping up and taking a more active role in producing Battle of Gods is the perfect example of why Dragon Ball needs his participation and his voice.

Has Toyotaro been immersed in Toriyama's sensibilities for long enough to deliver something that doesn't feel like filler? As much as I enjoyed some aspects of the Super manga's final two arcs, I definitely feel like Toriyama took more of a GT-style role for those storylines. That is to say, it doesn't feel like something Toriyama would write. But I could be wrong. It might just be my bias.

Toriyama hand-picked Toyotaro as his successor, so I think Toyotaro should have the opportunity to helm his own series for the first time.

After all, Super is still Toriyama's baby. He created the Super storyline in 2013 by rewriting BoG movie and setting up the long-lasting Goku-Beerus rivalry.

Super is Toriyama's baby, same as the OG DB and DBZ.

By virtue of being Toriyama's chosen successor, I would give Toyotaro the opportunity to helm his own series set in the Dragon Ball world.

But I would also be fine with Super ending and Daima being the final Dragon Ball series. I just find it unlikely, since Super's success made the franchise so profitable to milk again.

[sangofe]

Toriyama's sudden and tragic passing has been on my mind all morning. I've been reading everyone's thoughts on this thread, and it's very moving to see everyone expressing their condolences and grief over the loss of a truly one-of-a-kind storyteller.

I'm curious to hear from others about what the expectations are for the future of Dragon Ball without Toriyama. Many have already expressed that this is the end of Dragon Ball for them personally, but we all know there are projects in the works. Most of them, as far as we know, had considerable input from Toriyama himself. In addition to that, the author of the Super Manga, Toyataro has been Toriyama's de-facto protege and shepherd of the series for decades already. We can almost be certain that Toriyama's passing does not mean Dragon Ball will have no more media.

We know that Dragon Ball Daima will be the last piece of Dragon Ball media that Toriyama worked on. That will make it very special from a fan perspective and a historical perspective... But looking beyond that... What might we see? Will there be more movies? Will the Manga exclsuive story arcs be adapted to animation? Does Toyataro have what it takes to keep the tone and designs of the Dragon Ball universe in line?

Rest in Peace Toriyama! He was one of the greats and I'll forever miss his signature brand of humor and style.

Toyotaro has not been protege and shpherd of the series for decade*s*. For me personally, Dragon Ball is dead. It's dead in the sense that nobody could get the characters and universe like Toriyama did. And absolutely nobody could get his humor right. Toyotaro's versions felt different and Toei's felt awfully different. Downright awful at times. I am not sure what will happen after Daima. I know they had immense respect for Toriyama. Maybe that means they will end all works after what Toriyama was implied in. I think it depends on what Toriyama has said about that, if he ever got to talk about it, which is unlikely. Then I think the family could demand them to stop messing with his creations.

[Tian]

I wonder if Toriyama left some notes to Toyotaro and Toei in case this happened. Maybe some guidelines about what to do after Daima.

Man, it really worries me about how Dragon Ball would be like now without Toriyama's artistic and narrative input.

[Grimlock]

Dragon Ball without its creator will surely be different. I mean, even with him on board, it was already becoming different for the last decade or so, but now it will be full-blown something else.

No more awesome designs for game characters, no more Mira, Towa, Shallot, Android 21. I don't know what will become of Dragon Quest. I think they will hire someone to replicate his artstyle, or have to adopt a new one. The latter is obviously a much more radical decision that will drastically change the Dragon Quest franchise as whole going forward, but I guess it is what it is.

He dies without establishing a canon, and as I have been saying here, this is going to open up a whole lot of cans of worm. Those who think only what Toriyama did is "valid/counts/is legit/is canonical" is going to either have to move on to another franchise or accept others' projects without babbling and yapping about canonicity. It was already a very crap subject to discuss before, now it's outright nonsensical. Hopefully we won't have to deal and put up with this anymore.

I can see Toyotaro taking a break and Dragon Ball Daima being postponed to next year, but I feel like Toriyama would want us to celebrate Dragon Ball's anniversary, so maybe the latter should still keep his schedule for this year. With countless evidences out there, Dragon Ball will not end. At some point or another, Shueisha will release whatever they want, whenever they want. If, for some reason, Toriyama was preventing/blocking something from happening, now it is going to happen eventually.

I think Toyotaro will continue his work. From now on, undoubtedly whatever we see in the manga came from him. So those who don't like his works or artstyle are going to have to either accept them or move on. I just hope he won't be alone, I can't even wrap my head around what "inheriting Dragon Ball" may entail in a person's mind.

Even though I felt disenchanted with modern Dragon Ball over the years, it still is one of my favorite franchises, and it still is on top three. Which is why I kept myself following it very closely. I grew up with it and I don't want it to be abandoned. I can only wish for the best for everyone. May Toriyama's legacy lives on, one way or another.

[Majin Buu]

It puts even more pressure on Daima to be good for starters and makes me wonder if the folks who've been shitting on Daima from day one will end up supporting it now, if only because it's now become the last major Dragon Ball project (that we currently know of) with Toriyama's direct involvement.

Other than that, who knows where Dragon Ball as a franchise goes from here. The future legit seems unknown right now.

The post-Toriyama era of Dragon Ball has begun.

[Hellspawn28]

It's going to feel odd without him around. However, the series will move on without him. Bandai and Shueisha still have plenty of stuff to milk the series with. Series like Kamen Rider as an example, was able to do new stuff without the original creator alive.

[FortuneSSJ]

Just like Disney didn't end when Walt passed away, Dragon Ball will go on without Toriyama.

Big companies/franchises don't stop because their owner/creator passed away. Too much money on the table. As sad as it is life goes on and we have to keep moving forward.

[Innagadadavida]

He dies without establishing a canon, and as I have been saying here, this is going to open up a whole lot of cans of worm. Those who think only what Toriyama did is "valid/counts/is legit/is canonical" is going to either have to move on to another franchise or accept others' projects without babbling and yapping about canonicity. It was already a very crap subject to discuss before, now it's outright nonsensical. Hopefully we won't have to deal and put up with this anymore.

It is farcical to have a conversation about "official" canon when it comes to Dragon Ball. The series contradicted itself countless times prior to the end of Z, and now, with GT, Super, the films, and even Daima... I think Dragon Ball has entered that mutliversal realm that many long-running classic comic series from all over the world exist within. Beyond drawing the line at the end of the original manga, there's just no conversation to be had, especially now. Everyone is going to have to accept that everyone else will have their own personal canon, and that's okay. There's no right or wrong answer. Just like most things in life

I can see Toyotaro taking a break and Dragon Ball Daima being postponed to next year, but I feel like Toriyama would want us to celebrate Dragon Ball's anniversary, so maybe the latter should still keep his schedule for this year. With countless evidences out there, Dragon Ball will not end. At some point or another, Shueisha will release whatever they want, whenever they want. If, for some reason, Toriyama was preventing/blocking something from happening, now it is going to happen eventually.

Toriyama still has a family and Dragon Ball can continue to provide for his family long after his passing. That's a wonderful thing, and its one way to honor the man... continue to support the series in whatever way you're comfortable. I mean, that's not to say we have to like whatever comes next, even if it's junk... But just because he's gone, doesn't mean we have to let go of the characters and stories that he gave to the world.

I look forward to much more from the world of Dragon Ball, even if it's commercialized crap. I mean, what isn't commercialized crap these days anyway? Moreover, Dragon Ball has always been mired, knee-deep in commercialized crap since day one! There's still a good story at the center of it all, and it's still worth enjoying and sharing with young people!

I think Toyotaro will continue his work. From now on, undoubtedly whatever we see in the manga came from him. So those who don't like his works or artstyle are going to have to either accept them or move on. I just hope he won't be alone, I can't even wrap my head around what "inheriting Dragon Ball" may entail in a person's mind.

This is something I've thought about too. I have a great deal of respect for Toyotaro, and I wish him the best. I believe that in his heart, he wants to live up to Toriyama's standards. I believe he wants to preserve Toriyama's legacy with humility and respect. I can't imagine the future of the series in better hands, even if that responsibility fell on Toyotaro far earlier than anyone expected. I wish him luck and I will support his work.

Even though I felt disenchanted with modern Dragon Ball over the years, it still is one of my favorite franchises, and it still is on top three. Which is why I kept myself following it very closely. I grew up with it and I don't want it to be abandoned. I can only wish for the best for everyone. May Toriyama's legacy lives on, one way or another.

I think all fans that have stuck with the series for a long time can see that the golden age of Dragon Ball is behind us. But like I said before, there's still so much left to explore and with which to have fun. Dragon Ball shouldn't be abandoned. It will be heartbreaking if it gets further cheapened and driven into irrelevance by greedy commercialism-- like many of Disney's intellectual properties. But I do believe there is a good chance for the series to go on with a high degree of respectability. It's possible.

[JulieYBM]

Now that I've had some time to process Toriyama's passing, I do have some concerns about the future.

My suspicion is that Iyoku Akio will chase the ambulance until the cows come home—which is to say, I think he'll want to keep franchising the series out, which was the reason he formed Capsule Corp Tokyo in the first place. It's also possible that Toriyama's wife or kids will be involved in keeping the story going to wrap up any loose ends, but I'm also quite sure that Shueisha, Capsule Corp Tokyo, Bandai, and Toei Animation will want to pressure them into letting things continue for the sake of their profits.

Personally, my biggest fear is that they won't really bring in a strong creative vision and let them handle the franchise. Toyo-tarou's entire career is Dragon Ball, and he's always been far too married to what Dragon Ball was, rather than finding ways to organically grow the characters and themes.

If I had my crack wish: Nagamine Tatsuya, Ishitani Megumi and Tomioka Atsuhiro would take over the animation side of things and be considered voices worth listening to. I think they have really strong careers and talent behind them, and what any title needs is those things. At the end of the day, I just want to give artists the freedom to create whatever art they like without worrying about the bills, so I say just send Dragon Ball into the public domain (it won't happen, but, y'know, whatevs).

[MasenkoHA]

Just like Disney didn't end when Walt passed away, Dragon Ball will go on without Toriyama.

Big companies/franchises don't stop because their owner/creator passed away. Too much money on the table. As sad as it is life goes on and we have to keep moving forward.

Few franchises have their creator so involved even when they're not involved.

It would be one thing if like when Stan Lee stopped working on Spider-man, X-Men, Iron-man etc and those series evolved long past him well before he died. But short of Evolution the Dragon Ball franchise has never done anything without Toriyama contributing SOMETHING.

I'm not saying Toei/Bandai/Shueisha shouldn't continue without Toriyama, I just think fans taking it's continuation as a foregone conclusion should at least consider where the IP Holders general stance on doing Dragon Ball without Toriyama has been in the past. I.e not doing it without his blessing

[Luso Saiyan]

He dies without establishing a canon, and as I have been saying here, this is going to open up a whole lot of cans of worm. Those who think only what Toriyama did is "valid/counts/is legit/is canonical" is going to either have to move on to another franchise or accept others' projects without babbling and yapping about canonicity. It was already a very crap subject to discuss before, now it's outright nonsensical. Hopefully we won't have to deal and put up with this anymore.

It is farcical to have a conversation about "official" canon when it comes to Dragon Ball. The series contradicted itself countless times prior to the end of Z, and now, with GT, Super, the films, and even Daima... I think Dragon Ball has entered that mutliversal realm that many long-running classic comic series from all over the world exist within. Beyond drawing the line at the end of the original manga, there's just no conversation to be had, especially now. Everyone is going to have to accept that everyone else will have their own personal canon, and that's okay. There's no right or wrong answer. Just like most things in life

I'm not sure if people like being pedantic over the word "canon" or can genuinely not understand what people are referring to when the word is mentioned. Like in any body of work, the canon is dictated by the authority. In fiction, that's usually the realm of the creator/author. So his works, no matter what, are and always have been the canon.

[WittyUsername]

I think Super was already on its way out. It’s been apparent for a couple of years now that there hadn’t been any active plans to bring the anime back, and I don’t know how much longer the manga can get stretched out.

In terms of what the future of the franchise may hold, I would not be surprised if Daima will serve as the last hurrah for modern Dragon Ball. That doesn’t mean the franchise will be dormant forever, but i could easily see Daima serving as the end of an era.

[Hellspawn28]

I have seen people say that Toriyama's family member should carry on DB, but I doubt that will happen.