Of course we live in a capitalist world, and obviously there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that. Its simply reality.Innagadadavida wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:07 pmAnd to be clear, I'm not using profit as a bad word. We live in a capitalist world, for better or for worse, and this is how we engage with artists and creatives in a market-driven environment.
But... there is a significant difference between acknowledging capitalism as the present reality/paradigm in which we live, and passively accepting it, actively supporting it, or just flat out cheering it on.
To be clear, I'm not even saying that you're doing this specifically Inna: I'm speaking much more in general and broadly here. But to me, its one thing to acknowledge the reality of capitalism and a market environment as the world we live in and have to deal with, and a totally different thing to say "and that's ok, it is what it is".
At this point, I don't think that capitalism is ok or harmless or something to just shrug off as "it is what it is". I acknowledge it as the reality we all have to live in and deal with, but I don't in any way condone or support it, nor do I "accept it" whatsoever. I think its totally unsustainable, is incredibly inhumane and cruel, and at SOME point in human history it needs to be moved past/evolved away from entirely: because in a long-term sense, I don't think that humanity can survive its continuance.
Capitalism, at the end of the day, is the prioritization of profit over people. It should be simply a means to an end to better humanity, but it has instead become the end in and of itself at the direct expense of humanity (and art - in a much more broad sense - along with it). "Money is the root of all evil" etc. etc.
And to be extra-extra clear: Dragon Ball is an immensely, comically trivial footnote in all this. End of the day, Dragon Ball's "artistic integrity" (such as it is) is as rock bottom low on the totem pole of priorities for me as it gets. The ONLY reason that we're all even talking about it at all here in the first place - much less centering it in any way - is because... well because this is a Dragon Ball forum. And the creator just suddenly and unexpectedly passed (at a relatively young-ish age, in the grand scheme of things).
So yeah, this is about the most (and probably only) relevant place to center something as silly and trivial as DB's "creative/artistic integrity" in a discussion. Its only centered here because of the nature of this very forum. Its entirely context-dependent.
My harsh views towards capitalism however are rooted in things entirely divorced from and VASTLY more important than something as silly as Dragon Ball though. That SHOULD go without saying, but... apparently this needs to be reiterated for some folks (not necessarily you Inna, I'm fairly sure you understand this distinction very well).
But in either case, yes we live in a capitalistic/market driven world. No however, I don't think that its ok or acceptable, nor do I think it is something to be passively accepted, actively supported, or cheered on (again broadly speaking, not saying that you're necessarily doing any of those things Inna). At all. Its a grim, shitty, soul-deadening, and at this point fairly dystopian status quo that we all have to essentially slog through and try our best to survive in one piece (sometimes figuratively, sometimes quite literally). The reasons why I think this are rooted in FAR more important issues than something as silly and dumb as Dragon Ball, obviously.
Art - and I include and also mean like MUCH more "important" and "high brow" art in this equation, aside from "low brow" nerd shit like DB - is just one of the many, many, many victims of capitalism. I value and treasure art - in a very broad sense - a great, great deal, and I don't in any way think the commodification of it is something to be written off or passively accepted in any way.
Dragon Ball is about as low on the totem pole of even artistic priorities as it gets within this paradigm (there's VASTLY more important and enriching works out there who's commodification is a zillion times more fucked up and heartbreaking to witness than DB)... but it is still ultimately tied to a much broader, wider discussion about the (negative and corrosive) impact of capitalism on even simple human creativity.
To bring this back around to this forum: I've talked about this a bunch in various other threads over the years too, but I also think that there is a very real - and in my opinion, very annoying and even somewhat disturbing - phenomenon of fans who have seemingly unconsciously/subconsciously internalized the thinking and mindset of a media executive, and who have come to view not just Dragon Ball, but seemingly ALL art and media, through the prism not of a fan and not even of a creator... but through the prism of a corporate marketing executive.
Time and time again, we have seen numerous threads where users (most of whom are needless to say just regular, average people) fully take on the perspective and internalize the priorities of a corporate executive/Hollywood producer as if its one and the same as that of an audience member (and often times, its not). Its a very real, very noticeable widespread trend among all sorts of fandoms (not just DB's) that has been ongoing now for at least 20 someodd years now, and I think its always worth highlighting as something that's worth pointing out, questioning, and challenging, as I think it is INCREDIBLY misguided, wrongheaded, and counterintuitive.
I don't think that Inna's post is necessarily indicative of that trend (or if it is, then its certainly far, far from the worst offender): but it did at least remind me of it. But at the very least I appreciate his attempt at acknowledging that line, drawing some distinctions and boundaries, and trying to look at it from multiple sides and angles. There's at the very least a level of self-awareness there that I do appreciate seeing, and wish there was a bit more of whenever these kinds of topics come up.
I mean... don't we all?Innagadadavida wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:07 pmTo put it plainly, I have too much to worry about to be concerned at all about artistic integrity of comics and cartoons.
You don't see me on here very often either at this point. Toriyama's sudden and tragic passing certainly brough pretty much everyone, including all the old-heads, out of the woodwork (for totally obvious and completely justified reasons of course). Like I said before: Dragon Ball is ludicrously low on the priority list not just broadly/generally, but even when it comes to art/media as a whole. We're only centering it here because of the nature of this place as a Dragon Ball forum, and due to the passing of Toriyama. I simply am not a fan of the impact that capitalism (certainly at least unfettered, out of control capitalism at a minimum) has on pretty much nearly everything it touches, not just Dragon Ball or whatever other creative properties you'd care to name.
In any case, DB certainly still concerns us all enough to bring just about damn near every one of us back here to mourn the creator/author's passing. So there's something to be said for that at least.
Very true, especially given everything that's been thrown at it for all these years now and it still standing tall. Its really amazing how much crap its managed to somehow survive still and not drive off more people. People stick it out with this thing through thick and thin (myself very much included!) in a way that defies all logic. Not a lot of things can boast that kind of longevity and dedication amongst so many people and still feel like its organic and not forced by relentless marketing.Innagadadavida wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2024 3:07 pmAnd my opinion is... there is no way to poison the original product.
