The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:34 pm

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:25 pmHonestly, I have NEVER seen a single person complain about Spiderman canon, or argue "this isn't written by Stan Lee" when it comes to criticizing Sam Raimi's films, or anything of the sort. Heck, I doubt there's a single person alive who sincerely thinks Disney adaptations are worse than the books they're based on, and Disney is very liberal when it comes to adapting them. It's only Anime fans who ever do this when it comes to adaptations of the source material.
There's a very good reason for that: Japanese Manga has always (for the most part) been much more creator-oriented rather than company oriented relative to the U.S./West. Western comics tend to be noted by what company produces them (Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc), whereas Japanese comics tend to be noted by who the author was (which is kind of ironic considering how individualistic American culture in particular is, and how much more collectivist Japanese culture has - at least historically - been).

Spider-Man's comics have been written by a never-ending multitude of different writers rotating in and out constantly over the years because his comic is running in constant perpetuity and is generally branded in the public consciousness as a Marvel comic rather than a Stan Lee comic.

Whereas with Japanese manga, we don't typically think of them as a "Shonen Jump" manga or a "Young Jump" manga or a "Big Comic Spirits" manga, etc. Japanese manga - with some notable exceptions of course - tend to be written and drawn by the same author (or author/artist team in some cases) throughout their entire run and are synonymous with the creator rather than the company/publication. There's also usually a set beginning, middle, and end point to most manga. Again with some notable exceptions, most Manga don't run forever in constant perpetuity like most American superhero comics do.

Spider-Man's comic likely will never stop being published and pumping out new content until the Earth stops spinning, whereas in Manga, once the author is done then the comic is done and that's it. Time to move on. Again, with some rare notable exceptions.

Its just the inherently different nature of how Japanese comic publishing is versus Western comic publishing.

Honestly, I personally tend to much prefer how it is on the Japanese end of things, as I think the actual creators matter a helluva lot more than the wider "company brand" or whatnot. Plus I don't usually see the value in letting things run and drag on forever in perpetuity: let things have a real conclusion and then move on to something else entirely. But that doesn't mean that I don't still also love my share of Western/U.S. comics, and even Marvel/DC superhero titles specifically (die hard X-Men fanatic for life over here).

With American Dragon Ball fandom (and I'm speaking much more in general here overall, not necessarily just to AliThe Zombie's post in particular) there has always been a constant tendency to overly project our own sensibilities onto the series and view it through the same prism as U.S. superhero comics or wrestling or what have you, rather than as a Japanese manga in all that that entails on its end of the globe.

There has always been a driving need in U.S. DB fandom to see Goku as Superman and his friends as the JLA/Avengers, and I suppose that may well perhaps also be in some part where some of the desire to see the series continue forever in constant serialized perpetuity also might come from to one extent or another. There's long been this contingent of people who REALLY seem to want Dragon Ball - and also just wider Shonen stuff (Shonen Jump in particular) on some level or other - to be Manga Marvel or DC Comics... when that's never really ever been how its ever worked in Japan or in most manga (including Dragon Ball).

Japan obviously has plenty of its share of native superhero franchises (Kamen Rider, Ultraman, Super Sentai, etc), but for the most part the superhero genre - and with it, its manner of constant serialization under a host of different rotating creators - simply does not dominate the Japanese manga industry in the way that it always has the U.S./Western comics market. Japanese manga has traditionally not only been more creator-driven, but also far more genre-diverse and not so reliant upon superheroes and superhero shared universes. Again though, there's of course always exceptions and outliers to this, but they're just that: exceptions and outliers.

For all these reasons - and a host more I probably am not covering here - you simply can't make a reasonable comparison between stuff like Marvel and Spider-Man or the Avengers and Japanese Manga. Its not just apples and oranges, its like... ice cream and salad. Other than being a kind of food (or in this case, pages filled with sequential paneled art that tells a story), there's typically little else in the way to really correlate the two.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:55 pm

Many indie western comics are similar with manga with the comic is over when the author is done with it. Like as seen with The Maxx, Invincible, Hellboy (the spin offs are still a thing), Preacher, etc.
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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:00 am

Hellspawn28 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:55 pmMany indie western comics are similar with manga with the comic is over when the author is done with it. Like as seen with The Maxx, Invincible, Hellboy (the spin offs are still a thing), Preacher, etc.
Absolutely for sure: but those are almost never what's being thought of by most folks here whenever topics like this arise.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by GhostEmperorX » Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:12 am

Kunzait_83 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:34 pm There's a very good reason for that: Japanese Manga has always (for the most part) been much more creator-oriented rather than company oriented relative to the U.S./West. Western comics tend to be noted by what company produces them (Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc), whereas Japanese comics tend to be noted by who the author was (which is kind of ironic considering how individualistic American culture in particular is, and how much more collectivist Japanese culture has - at least historically - been).
Whoa, just a while ago I was discussing this exact same irony with someone else (from Portugal) in a completely different area (he's not even a DB fan for one thing).

What he said is about the same thing:
...there's the manga scene which is huge and catered towards a wide array of audiences and niches where most work is done individually or by a writer and artist team so there's a lot of variety in a way you don't see elsewhere.
You can't compare Japanese manga with US comics with the latter often having the same ideas shared by a lot of people.
There's a certain irony to all this considering Japan is a very collectivist society while Western countries, especially the US, value the individual more.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by DefinitiveDubs » Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:10 am

GhostEmperorX wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:12 am
Kunzait_83 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:34 pm There's a very good reason for that: Japanese Manga has always (for the most part) been much more creator-oriented rather than company oriented relative to the U.S./West. Western comics tend to be noted by what company produces them (Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc), whereas Japanese comics tend to be noted by who the author was (which is kind of ironic considering how individualistic American culture in particular is, and how much more collectivist Japanese culture has - at least historically - been).
Whoa, just a while ago I was discussing this exact same irony with someone else (from Portugal) in a completely different area (he's not even a DB fan for one thing).

What he said is about the same thing:
...there's the manga scene which is huge and catered towards a wide array of audiences and niches where most work is done individually or by a writer and artist team so there's a lot of variety in a way you don't see elsewhere.
You can't compare Japanese manga with US comics with the latter often having the same ideas shared by a lot of people.
There's a certain irony to all this considering Japan is a very collectivist society while Western countries, especially the US, value the individual more.
Incidentally, this is why manga is absolutely dominating U.S. markets and kicking American comics' asses in terms of sales. Rather than brand power, they offer variety and with stories firmly in control of the creator. They offer a story that has a beginning, middle, and end. People like those things.

And it's for this reason that I'm perplexed as to why people here want Dragon Ball to be like an American comic, to go on forever with a status quo, and have a rotating selection of artists and writers. I get that fans are fans, but it's an idea I never, ever see with other manga fandoms. When Naruto kept being expanded, it was embarrassing, but when Dragon Ball does it, somehow that's a good thing. Much like what Star Wars became, it feels like a celebration of a brand, rather than a story. I suppose it's because Toriyama himself wanted Dragon Ball to become such a franchise, but that was when he was alive and swimming in money. I probably would've done the same thing, knowing me, but if I could no longer collect, and no longer had any control...I'd probably want it to stop.

Maybe it's just me, but I just don't see Dragon Ball as being a series that lends itself to an infinite amount of storytelling. Sure the world does, but the characters don't. It's not like Pokemon or Yugioh which can go on forever with new generations, and it's not like Lupin or Detective Conan where there's always a status quo to fall back on; the story has to move forward, and it has to star Goku. Daima had to come up with a gimmick excuse to continue the story after the power creep basically hit the ceiling, and at that point, isn't it getting a little weird?

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:19 am

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:25 pm

Honestly, I have NEVER seen a single person complain about Spiderman canon or argue "this isn't written by Stan Lee" when it comes to criticizing Sam Raimi's films, or anything of the sort
They do it's just the canon is the comics that aren't limited to a single writer (like Kunzait said American comics are associated with their company not any specific writer). There were definitely fans who complained about Raimi skipping Gwen Stacy in favor of Mary Jane, downplaying Mary Jane's party girl persona in favor of emphasizing her broken home backstory, having Peter's web be organic, making Eddie Brock nothing like his comic book counterpart in favor of an evil Peter Parker etc. Comic books are definitely becoming way less relevant but it wasn't exactly hard to find fans upset at how adaptations handle those characters. You can't, for example, see any discussion about Rogue in the X-men movies without complaints that she didn't have her super strength and flight and was made into a shrinking violet stead of a strong willed southern belle.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:04 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:19 am They do it's just the canon is the comics that aren't limited to a single writer (like Kunzait said American comics are associated with their company not any specific writer). There were definitely fans who complained about Raimi skipping Gwen Stacy in favor of Mary Jane, downplaying Mary Jane's party girl persona in favor of emphasizing her broken home backstory, having Peter's web be organic, making Eddie Brock nothing like his comic book counterpart in favor of an evil Peter Parker etc. Comic books are definitely becoming way less relevant but it wasn't exactly hard to find fans upset at how adaptations handle those characters. You can't, for example, see any discussion about Rogue in the X-men movies without complaints that she didn't have her super strength and flight and was made into a shrinking violet stead of a strong willed southern belle.
Arguments like these definitely exist, though never to the point where entire works are dismissed and derided on the sole basis of "the original creator was not involved, therefore, it sucks." There are more arguments about the X-Men suddenly being "woke" than there are of the original authors' involvement, for example.

I know manga and comics are two different things, but again, Toriyama never seemed to be opposed to leaving Dragon Ball in the hands of someone else as long as they treated it well, so these arguments are pointless and go against his will.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:16 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:19 am
AliTheZombie13 wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:25 pm

Honestly, I have NEVER seen a single person complain about Spiderman canon or argue "this isn't written by Stan Lee" when it comes to criticizing Sam Raimi's films, or anything of the sort
They do it's just the canon is the comics that aren't limited to a single writer (like Kunzait said American comics are associated with their company not any specific writer). There were definitely fans who complained about Raimi skipping Gwen Stacy in favor of Mary Jane, downplaying Mary Jane's party girl persona in favor of emphasizing her broken home backstory, having Peter's web be organic, making Eddie Brock nothing like his comic book counterpart in favor of an evil Peter Parker etc. Comic books are definitely becoming way less relevant but it wasn't exactly hard to find fans upset at how adaptations handle those characters. You can't, for example, see any discussion about Rogue in the X-men movies without complaints that she didn't have her super strength and flight and was made into a shrinking violet stead of a strong willed southern belle.
I think they meant canon more in terms of assigning it to specific authors. People generally don’t try to delegitimise subsequent comic runs or adaptations purely because the original creative teams didn’t work on them, not just because of changes made in adaptations which, granted, are also routinely moaned about by comic nerds. Most of the classics have been going on for so long that it would be unrealistic or impossible to expect only one set of writers, editors and artists to work on Incredible Hulk in perpetuity.

There are growing cults of personality in the comics world, though most of the ones who’ve done work for the Big Two recognise that they’re just cogs in much larger machines and their work can be retconned out at any time. Even Grant Morrison, one of the most famous “auteurs” in the industry, had this happen with his New X-Men run. People hated a particular twist involving a certain popular character he introduced actually being a secret identity for a pre-existing villain, so later writers hastily tried to amend it but only turned it into an even more confusing mess. There have also been cases where individual writers have really leveraged the whole “only the OG does it right” angle to limited success, most infamously Ken Penders who wrote some mediocre Archie Comics Sonic stories (more Knuckles stories, really) but believes the franchise can’t last in comic form without his genius.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:42 pm

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:04 pm ]

Arguments like these definitely exist, though never to the point where entire works are dismissed and derided on the sole basis of "the original creator was not involved, therefore, it sucks."
Well yeah, but that just goes back to the point about there being a different culture between manga and American comics. Manga is usually finite, American comics are usually not. It is far more understandable if not frustrating that people would follow the mindset "It's not really Dragon Ball if Toriyama didn't write it/give it his blessing" then something like Bill Finger and Batman.
There are more arguments about the X-Men suddenly being "woke" than there are of the original authors' involvement, for example.

People who complain about Xmen suddenly being woke now are also media illiterate brainwashed right wing regurgitating idiots but that's neither here nor there. But it's also damn near impossible for anyone to seriously argue its not Xmen without Stan Lee when Chris Claremont was the one who defined the Xmen as we've known them damn near the last 50 years.

If American superhero comics operated like Japanese manga with an eventual end point we probably would see more of the "its only valid when the creator gets involved" mindset

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:43 pm

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:04 pmThere are more arguments about the X-Men suddenly being "woke" than there are of the original authors' involvement, for example.
I mean, this is pretty much as clear-cut of an example of a self-invalidating argument as I've ever heard. The whole "X-Men have suddenly gone woke" thing is more a glaring indication of a swift decline in basic (and I mean BASIC) intelligence within "nerd" culture on a wide scale than it is literally anything else.

"The X-Men have suddenly gone woke!" is like saying "Sonic is suddenly about going super fast!" or "Dragon Ball Z is suddenly about fighting!" or "Spider-Man is suddenly about Power and Responsibility!" or "Metal Gear is suddenly about anti-war politics!" or "Superman is suddenly about truth and justice!" (I can see the Youtube videos now: "Superman is an SJW!" Yeah, cause Superman never fought for justice, right?).

This is about a whole MASS of people lacking an incredibly basic degree of reading comprehension, object permanence, and like the most anodyne sense of history imaginable.

X-Men has always, always been about bigotry and prejudice at its core. Its always been deeply and outwardly socio-political, and decidedly left-leaning. That's not only key to its basic, foundational premise, that was quite literally its SELLING POINT for literally DECADES. Its the central point of its elevator pitch! Mutants are a persecuted minority, fighting hate and bigotry towards them to be seen as equal peers among humans. They are a BLATANT allegory for literally any and every persecuted minority group in real life, be it black people, gay people, Jewish people, trans people, etc. Without that, you simply do not have an X-Men franchise at all, period.

Not grasping that is like not grasping that Romeo and Juliet is about a doomed teenage romance, or that the Titanic was a ship that sunk, or that Jason Voorhees from Friday the 13th is a big, scary, unkillable zombie in a hockey mask who gruesomely kills people with sharp pointy things.

Like this is about as elementary as it gets.

Anyone who makes the "X-Men have gone woke!" argument can only possibly be one of two things: someone who has never once read (or watched) a single shred of X-Men media in their lives and couldn't care less about it whatsoever and is only blindly using it as a blunt political tool for decidedly reactionary/right wing political ends, or someone who is among the absolute, most bottom rung stupidest, most media illiterate people to ever walk the planet.

There is no third possibility here (other than "Both, a combination of the above two options"). This is just definitional at that point. We're decidedly at "either words have meaning or they don't" levels of fundamentally basic here. You either know and understand that 2+2=4 here or you don't.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:00 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:43 pm
AliTheZombie13 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 2:04 pmThere are more arguments about the X-Men suddenly being "woke" than there are of the original authors' involvement, for example.
I mean, this is pretty much as clear-cut of an example of a self-invalidating argument as I've ever heard. The whole "X-Men have suddenly gone woke" thing is more a glaring indication of a swift decline in basic (and I mean BASIC) intelligence within "nerd" culture on a wide scale than it is literally anything else.
I'm not saying I agree with the sentiment. In fact, I despite it for pretty much every single thing you just said right there. I'm a gay person myself. But that was the point I wanted to emphasize. Be it for cultural reasons or what-not, very few people in the West care about the concept of "canon" or how involved the original authors are in a piece of work, there are usually far more arguments about the piece of work's actual quality and respect to the core concepts that represented the original work than anything else.

And I do know that manga is treated as finite, but Dragon Ball was certainly not being treated as such in the 10's and early 20's.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Grimlock » Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:12 pm

Guess we're about to find out whether Dragon Ball is finite or not.

Toriyama's Dragon Ball definitely is, and it's over now. But Shueisha's Dragon Ball? We shall see.
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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:16 pm

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:00 pmI'm not saying I agree with the sentiment. In fact, I despite it for pretty much every single thing you just said right there. I'm a gay person myself. But that was the point I wanted to emphasize. Be it for cultural reasons or what-not, very few people in the West care about the concept of "canon" or how involved the original authors are in a piece of work, there are usually far more arguments about the piece of work's actual quality and respect to the core concepts that represented the original work than anything else.
And my point was, the sorts of people online who engage in such arguments do not represent the "average/ordinary" person's perspective whatsoever. We're talking here, per that X-Men example, about a subset of people who encompass either the very stupidest, most easily brainwashed people on the internet, or extreme right wing political operatives taking advantage of them.

There is no "Joe/Jane Average Normie" within that subset of people. Plain and simple, we're talking about kooks and cranks. Granted a scarily growing number of them: but still not "the mainstream" or "the majority" of people. And I don't think that kooks and cranks should ever be used as a scale or metric for these things, no matter how vocal or visible they are online.

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:00 pmAnd I do know that manga is treated as finite, but Dragon Ball was certainly not being treated as such in the 10's and early 20's.
Long dead and dormant classic manga/anime franchises have had revival runs before. Fist of the North Star, very famously, had a pretty huge revival run (comparable in terms of content scale to what Dragon Ball is currently undergoing) back in the mid-2000s (flush in the middle of Dragon Ball's dead/dormant period, and at the very height of then-current Western manga/anime fandom's ignorance of the HnK franchise) which encompassed a whole series of one-shot manga prequels/interquels (penned by a variety of different authors), a series of big budget theatrical "retelling" movies, a whole full fledged ongoing prequel manga that ran for several years (penned by one of the original authors of the original HnK manga), not one, but TWO TV anime prequels, and a slew of brand new video game releases, to name just a few, before eventually coming to an end.

Sailor Moon has also recently undergone an "anime revival" of sorts, as has Devilman at several points periodically in the past.

Revival runs of completed/classic titles are not new or unique in the world of anime and manga: they are typically however, much like their original runs, finite and tend to end at some point as well.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:56 pm

Anytime the X-Men are brought up I think back to the scene in X2: X-Men United, where Bobby's mom asks him "Have you tried not being a mutant," which any queer people could tell you is the most real fucking thing ever lol.

X-Men bleeds woke lefty shit, and I love it ever so much for that.
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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by AliTheZombie13 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:03 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:16 pm Long dead and dormant classic manga/anime franchises have had revival runs before. Fist of the North Star, very famously, had a pretty huge revival run (comparable in terms of content scale to what Dragon Ball is currently undergoing) back in the mid-2000s (flush in the middle of Dragon Ball's dead/dormant period, and at the very height of then-current Western manga/anime fandom's ignorance of the HnK franchise) which encompassed a whole series of one-shot manga prequels/interquels (penned by a variety of different authors), a series of big budget theatrical "retelling" movies, a whole full fledged ongoing prequel manga that ran for several years (penned by one of the original authors of the original HnK manga), not one, but TWO TV anime prequels, and a slew of brand new video game releases, to name just a few, before eventually coming to an end.

Sailor Moon has also recently undergone an "anime revival" of sorts, as has Devilman at several points periodically in the past.

Revival runs of completed/classic titles are not new or unique in the world of anime and manga: they are typically however, much like their original runs, finite and tend to end at some point as well.
At least with some of those revivals, we know exactly where the end point is.
Sailor Moon's mid point is the Infinity Arc, and the end point is the Galaxia arc. After that, there's no more content, it's over.
If Kimba The White Lion were to receive another adaptation, unless it was a side-story like the 2009 movie, I would know that the mid-point would be Kimba being an adult and having children, and the end point would be his travel to Mt. Moon.

Now, what exactly is the DB revival's end point? The End of Z? Are they planning to revisit GT or make entirely new content past that point? They have certainly made statements that they do want to continue the story past that point, so when exactly does it end? Are we even in the mid-point yet? Are they going to keep it going even after DB Online's universe takes place?

I'm sorry, but I don't see modern DB stopping, even after Toriyama's death.
They'll keep pulling "And then Goku finds a new strongerest person to battle" 'til the end of time.

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tonysoprano300
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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by tonysoprano300 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:55 pm

AliTheZombie13 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:03 pm
Kunzait_83 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:16 pm Long dead and dormant classic manga/anime franchises have had revival runs before. Fist of the North Star, very famously, had a pretty huge revival run (comparable in terms of content scale to what Dragon Ball is currently undergoing) back in the mid-2000s (flush in the middle of Dragon Ball's dead/dormant period, and at the very height of then-current Western manga/anime fandom's ignorance of the HnK franchise) which encompassed a whole series of one-shot manga prequels/interquels (penned by a variety of different authors), a series of big budget theatrical "retelling" movies, a whole full fledged ongoing prequel manga that ran for several years (penned by one of the original authors of the original HnK manga), not one, but TWO TV anime prequels, and a slew of brand new video game releases, to name just a few, before eventually coming to an end.

Sailor Moon has also recently undergone an "anime revival" of sorts, as has Devilman at several points periodically in the past.

Revival runs of completed/classic titles are not new or unique in the world of anime and manga: they are typically however, much like their original runs, finite and tend to end at some point as well.
At least with some of those revivals, we know exactly where the end point is.
Sailor Moon's mid point is the Infinity Arc, and the end point is the Galaxia arc. After that, there's no more content, it's over.
If Kimba The White Lion were to receive another adaptation, unless it was a side-story like the 2009 movie, I would know that the mid-point would be Kimba being an adult and having children, and the end point would be his travel to Mt. Moon.

Now, what exactly is the DB revival's end point? The End of Z? Are they planning to revisit GT or make entirely new content past that point? They have certainly made statements that they do want to continue the story past that point, so when exactly does it end? Are we even in the mid-point yet? Are they going to keep it going even after DB Online's universe takes place?

I'm sorry, but I don't see modern DB stopping, even after Toriyama's death.
They'll keep pulling "And then Goku finds a new strongerest person to battle" 'til the end of time.
So weird too because its clear Toriyama was interested in moving past Goku and ushering in a new generation, so many parts of the Cell and Buu arcs were dedicated to doing that.


Its so crazy to see DB stuck in the same status quo since 2015, its only just recently that we even saw some of the characters age. One of the coolest elements of original DB was its serialized nature, you could be watching the saiyan arc and someone else could be watching the Buu arc where practically everything is different. Gohans in high school, Vegeta has a kid and is living on earth at capsule corp, Piccolo lives on the lookout, Krillin is married with a kid etc.


I think thats what i actually miss the most, that sense of progression.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:12 pm

tonysoprano300 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:55 pm

So weird too because its clear Toriyama was interested in moving past Goku and ushering in a new generation, so many parts of the Cell and Buu arcs were dedicated to doing that.
If Toriyama had stuck to Gohan as the new lead it would have been interesting to see if he would have wrote more material past Boo. It does seem like he really didn't know what to do with Goku since Goku's character arc ended, for all intents and purposes, at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. The Saiyan/Namek arc was SOMETHING for at least attempting to continue by shaking up the status quo and what we know about Goku as a character but even then Goku took a backseat for large portions of the Namek story.
The Cell arc was kind of all over the place on who it's protagonist was. It's Future Trunks! No it's Vegeta! Nah it's Piccolo. No wait it's uh Gohan.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by tonysoprano300 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:18 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:12 pm
tonysoprano300 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:55 pm

So weird too because its clear Toriyama was interested in moving past Goku and ushering in a new generation, so many parts of the Cell and Buu arcs were dedicated to doing that.
If Toriyama had stuck to Gohan as the new lead it would have been interesting to see if he would have wrote more material past Boo. It does seem like he really didn't know what to do with Goku since Goku's character arc ended, for all intents and purposes, at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. The Saiyan/Namek arc was SOMETHING for at least attempting to continue by shaking up the status quo and what we know about Goku as a character but even then Goku took a backseat for large portions of the Namek story.
The Cell arc was kind of all over the place on who it's protagonist was. It's Future Trunks! No it's Vegeta! Nah it's Piccolo. No wait it's uh Gohan.
I'm one of those people who really loved the Gohan in high school stuff, its hard to say what an entire arc of him in the lead role would have looked but I wouldn’t have minded seeing that through.

Goku did kind of hit a point where there was not much of a direction to take the character, it was nice to see him as somewhat of a mature guardian type figure in the Buu saga but that really felt like the end point for his characterization. I think what contributes to the feeling of regression for both Vegeta and Goku in recent iterations is the idea that they don’t have an idea of where to take them so they have to start recycling old conflicts and teaching moments.

For whatever reason Toriyama felt it wouldn’t work , but even if Goku remains protagonist I still feel like the overall story has stagnated significantly. Its the same template of “Goku/Vegeta fight a guy, then they have barbecues and train on Beerus planet” over and over again. I don’t think we’ll ever see an arc end like the saiyan arc where half the cast is dead and Goku is hospitalized for months leaving Gohan/Krillin as the only ones left to pick up the pieces.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by DefinitiveDubs » Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:36 pm

Gohan would not have worked because he simply isn't as entertaining a character as Goku. Goku is a hopelessly innocent child trapped in a man's body, inspired by ancient Chinese folklore, who knows more about fighting techniques than he does counting to ten. He's endearing, he's iconic, but most importantly, he's unique. Gohan by comparison is...a standard shonen protagonist. Even in the early 90s, he would've been boring. The main reason he works as a character is how much of a contrast he is compared to his father, and the conflict it generates. If you took that away, his personality as a protagonist would be conventional and bland.

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Re: The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

Post by tonysoprano300 » Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:47 pm

DefinitiveDubs wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 10:36 pm Gohan would not have worked because he simply isn't as entertaining a character as Goku. Goku is a hopelessly innocent child trapped in a man's body, inspired by ancient Chinese folklore, who knows more about fighting techniques than he does counting to ten. He's endearing, he's iconic, but most importantly, he's unique. Gohan by comparison is...a standard shonen protagonist. Even in the early 90s, he would've been boring. The main reason he works as a character is how much of a contrast he is compared to his father, and the conflict it generates. If you took that away, his personality as a protagonist would be conventional and bland.
Yea, he’s sort of a sheltered kid with a very demanding mother who was thrust immediately into the most serious conflicts in DB history. I can’t deny that early dragon ball Goku started out with such an innocent and loveable personality.

I think the main thing with Gohan is that we never got to see his genuine personality shine through quite enough because he was constantly put in life or death situations. High school Gohan was the first time we got him just living his life and navigating relationships for an extended duration. Its some of my favourite Gohan content funny enough

But yea, I can see why Toriyama felt Goku was just such a great protagonist thats hard to top

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