Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 103 - Official Discussion Thread

[tonysoprano300]

I don’t feel like that’s something the Goku of old would casually just forget, and it makes him across like a caricature who is so out of touch with reality and is focused solely on his own selfish endeavours that he can’t be bothered with anything else. This is the same Goku who immediately recognized Chi Chi after hearing her name, and that was just a little girl he met once as a kid.

[TKA]

Likewise, Goku is interested in Uub only because of the power Uub displayed in the Moro arc.

The through line of the stories post-Tournament of Power is Goku trying to find his next kindred spirit who loves fighting as much as he does. Granolah was overtly about that, and how taking the shortcut to strength is flawed.

But every arc since the tournament of power has had Goku picking up a new rival of sorts.

This really could serve as the end of Super since he found his last one in Pan.

As an aside, one of my friends suggested it would be pretty funny if they wrapped up Black Frieza by having Uub oneshot him. There are, after all, only two people Frieza was told to never ever fight.

[SupremeKai25]

What's interesting about Uub/Buu is that they remain relevant only because they absorbed the Dai Kaioshin and his God ki.

It really makes you wonder how powerful and how much potential the Kaioshin truly have.

Hence why I am excited to see more of Kaioshin in Daima.

[Xeogran]

As an aside, one of my friends suggested it would be pretty funny if they wrapped up Black Frieza by having Uub oneshot him. There are, after all, only two people Frieza was told to never ever fight.

That would totally ruin Frieza's reputation forever, and also Ultra Instinct's and Ultra Ego's.
Uub doesn't even know how to fight before EoZ, and he couldn't even donate Genki without Dai Kaioshin's help. There's simply no way something like this is happening.

[tonysoprano300]

Would also require them to go past EOZ

[TKA]

That would totally ruin Frieza's reputation forever, and also Ultra Instinct's and Ultra Ego's.

Let’s just erase all context and focus on this part I quoted.

That is an absolutely abysmal way to read a story. These are characters: they exist to convey ideas. There is no “reputation,” just what the writer decides to include in the story or not.

And power levels should never come before telling a good story. That was how Toriyama wrote all of Dragonball, from the first chapter until March 1st.

[LoganForkHands73]

This isn't the first time that the fanbase has twisted itself into knots trying to rationalise Goku's recurring acts of stupidity and callousness as some kind of Ultra Big Brain 4D Chess Lost-in-Translation Homophone Joke Only the Japanese Would Fully Appreciate. Yet it's been proven time and again that a spade is a spade:

Goku (anime): Doesn't know what kissing is, has never kissed his wife.
Fans: Ah, he must have been confused by Trunks' gesture of feeding a senzu bean to Mai via mouth-to-mouth and didn't understand Vegeta drawing a connection to kissing!
Goku (manga): Doesn't know what kissing is, has never kissed his wife.
Fans:


Goku (movie): Doesn't view meditation as a valid form of training, barely understands what it even is.
Fans: Ah, it's not that he doesn't care about meditation, he just doesn't get why Vegeta has been sitting around for so long even though he's seen Vegeta do this exact form of visualisation training back in the Cell arc and praised him for it
Goku (manga): Doesn't veiw meditation as a valid form of training, barely understands what it even is.
Fans:


Goku (manga): Forgets his granddaughter's very existence.
Fans: Uhh... he got confused and thought Piccolo (famous solid-food-eater Piccolo) was going to pick up a loaf of bread? Because Pan is also a pun on bread, like how Gohan's name reflects "rice" or "meal"...


To be clear, I don't especially like the way Goku has been used for humour in recent years (just don't think it's funny, it's not that deep), but it's better to accept it than justify some "smart" joke behind the dumb joke. Only the latter adjective will ever apply with Goku, at least in his modern characterisation.

EDIT: Also, does this news about Toriyama's close involvement in scripting finally put to rest the recent arguments about Ultra Instinct "not being canon" to Toriyama's vision of Dragon Ball?

[Magnificent Ponta]

This Chapter really worked for me, in a number of ways.

Firstly and most simply, I loved the action art in the Goku vs. Gohan matchup; it felt a lot sharper and more visceral than the previous chapter, particularly when Gohan amped his power - the linework really sells the power-up and the speed of his movement and his strikes, even while it still does a good job of showcasing Goku's moves in Ultra Instinct before Gohan finally tags him.

Secondly, I felt this Chapter was pretty successful at bringing home a couple of the main throughlines of the arc, and in a way that felt pretty authentically "Dragon Ball" while also giving cause for further reflection.

The first is all the material around Superheroes, which gets both an earnest treatment and more characteristically playful touches. Obviously the arc starts off with Trunks and Goten trying to copy Cleangod and be superheroes themselves, with all the dorky Super Sentai stuff that entails, and they both inspire Dr. Hedo in creating the Gammas (with their superheroic sensibilities) and get a much-expanded share of the plot in the central filmic segment of the arc as Superheroes themselves. And in the epilogue they try on their Superhero moves, and Trunks talks about how Superheroes have to be strong and they have something to protect (I think this aligns well with the prologue of the arc, with his own focus on Mai and his various hijinks in protecting her) - meanwhile, Goku tests out Gohan's power and concludes from what he sees that Gohan is now fit to be the main protector of Earth (another superheroic trope). All that gets rounded out nicely enough here.

But it's really in the impact the main characters have here in the Epilogue that we get the most charming and authentically "Dragon Ball"-ish touch: Carmine isn't influenced towards "going straight" by any of the conventional Superheroing stuff like Hedo is, or dissuaded from evildoing by the main arc confrontation that beheads Red Ribbon and destroys their key weapon in Cell Max - he just tries different schemes. But when he sees the gang just being themselves and doing their thing, he gives it up. It really made me think of the line Toyotarou once shared: "Toriyama-sensei said, 'Dragon Ball is full of weirdos. But in the end, they all end up looking like good people.' He didn't say that the characters are good people to begin with. He said they end up looking like them." After all the trying to be "The Good Guys" finds limited and piecemeal success, I really like that it's their usual private goofing around that unintentionally achieves the total success of ending the villain's plans and reforming them, here. It feels like the most fitting end to that theme.

The second throughline this epilogue segment brings home is all the material about The Future, particularly with its focus on the Next Generation of Dragon Ball's cast (Obviously - it's in the Chapter Title). Quite aside from the dramatic expansion of Gohan's role in the film, to take the limelight from Piccolo (and which is built on still further in the Epilogue), the manga steps well beyond that by also bringing Trunks and Goten to centre stage at all the key points of the arc, with all their aforementioned superheroing, which really helps frame the story differently, and thinking about the pair in terms of the future also brings back associations with the prologue where Trunks has a lot of questions hanging over his future, from more than one perspective (both being unenthusiastic about his presumed future as the Capsule Corp heir, and the comparisons he engenders with his literal future self in Mai's eyes). The usual main cast from the 'current' generation (Goku and Vegeta) get tucked away in irrelevancy for practically the whole thing, until they meet up with the Next Gen'ers to see what they've got, and the arc only really dovetails like that when it starts to look towards the future from their perspective as well. There are touches of passing the torch ("I can rest easy knowing the Earth'll be safe once I'm gone"), but also of the kind of joy we see in Goku at the end of Dragon Ball ("I'm just happy knowing how strong he's gotten. It gives me that much more to look forward to!"), as the Chapter starts to turn towards the very end of the arc.

On that note, while Pan gets a smidge more focus, relevance, and characterisation in the main arc segment, she really gets a lovely moment all to herself in this Chapter, in the wordless finale, as she reconnects with her grandfather and then goes off playing and racing with him - that jives really well with the sort of relationship and activity they're portrayed with at the end of Dragon Ball, and it really does a good job of showing her to be just like her grandfather, continuing his basic character in a way that nobody else does - she's vigorous and bold, up for the fight in which she makes her true connections, and also carefree and reckless. The fact that she has forgotten who Goku is (she attacks him because she doesn't recognise him, and it seems from his gestures that Gohan teases her by playing up to the idea that Goku is just some stranger) more than salvages an otherwise kind of stale and ropey 'Goku is a dope' gag by giving the pair another commonality, before they race off toward the future together.

The tone of the chapter is excellently judged as well; it's got just the right mix of zip, intensity, and gentle humour running through it (as does the arc generally; I think this thoroughgoing blend of tone is something Super should have done a good deal more of before this point), but the ending is also understated and heartfelt, and to me it really feels like a proper ending - of the arc, sure, but also it would serve well as an ending to Super generally. I'd like the series to continue as I genuinely think it has more to offer, but if it turns out that this is it, then I feel like the main cast waving farewell as they go off to meet the future that we read in the last few Chapters of Dragon Ball would be a really well-judged way of concluding the series.

[Lukmendes]

Y'all are comically overblowing this.

At this point it's just another case of Toei/Toyotaro/Toriyama fucking up with Goku's character, unfortunately not even the worst case too...

As an aside, one of my friends suggested it would be pretty funny if they wrapped up Black Frieza by having Uub oneshot him. There are, after all, only two people Frieza was told to never ever fight.

That'd be hilarious .

EDIT: Also, does this news about Toriyama's close involvement in scripting finally put to rest the recent arguments about Ultra Instinct "not being canon" to Toriyama's vision of Dragon Ball?

Who knows, one can still make a point he was playing along with Toyotaro's continuity while it wasn't part of his own... I think that if UI was canon to Toriyama it's not really something he prioritized in having Goku obtain again... And unfortunately regardless of how canon it is, we'll never know his thoughts on it now...

[Mr Baggins]

I still see all this as superfluous if we treat it as an epilogue to Super Hero. The underlying theme of what encompasses a hero, or Gohan potentially surpassing his dad and becoming strong enough to protect earth on his own, are all things conveyed succinctly throughout the arc and right after beating Cell Max – both in the movie and the manga. Communicating the same ideas again through a sparring match following all that feels a bit fluffy and repetitive for me.

However, as an epilogue to Super in general, these chapters are damn near stellar. Dangling plot threads from multiple past arcs and Goku's entire motivational throughline are addressed here in full, with the core emphasis placed more on Goku being able to rest easy knowing his home is safe while he continues to pursue further challenges rather than on whom the torch is passed to per se. It really is a great lead-in to EoZ.

The only loose end is Freeza, but I don't think we truly need him; to whatever extent that Neko Majin Z can be considered canon, he could just as easily stick around doing his thing like a weekend cartoon villain.

Interestingly, Toyotaro mentions in the aforementioned website article that he's glad to have finished drawing this series. Some think he's just referring to the arc, but I wonder if it's equally possible he let it slip that the manga already is or is soon to be on its way out. It's worth noting that the "hiatus" is thus far indefinite, so hopefully we'll get clarity on that soon in lieu of it becoming another 2015-2018 anime situation.

Who knows, one can still make a point he was playing along with Toyotaro's continuity while it wasn't part of his own...

Nah, that would be an abysmal point. Toriyama historically gave zero fucks about continuity or what other writers were doing with his characters, and outside of an arc or two, was more deeply involved in the manga for the majority of its run until now.

As Toyotaro has repeatedly mentioned, his goal is to write and draw Super as Toriyama would have envisioned it. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

[capsulecorp]

trying to be "The Good Guys" finds limited and piecemeal success

Great point. The sentai-inspired antics of Gohan, Goten and Trucks (and the Gammas!) are funny because of how artificial and childish - not naive, childish - they are and, as you said, this has never been why Goku has been successful. He's not a do-gooder, he's not a "warrior of justice", he's a just sort of a stupid selfish battle genius who happens to be naive and good-natured enough (and strong enough) to inspire his foes.

The fact that she has forgotten who Goku is (she attacks him because she doesn't recognise him, and it seems from his gestures that Gohan teases her by playing up to the idea that Goku is just some stranger) more than salvages an otherwise kind of stale and ropey 'Goku is a dope' gag by giving the pair another commonality, before they race off toward the future together.

Yup. If this really is the final chapter of DBS, emphasizing the parallels between Pan and Goku once more is a perfect send-off. If it wasn't clear back when EOZ was written, it's extremely clear now: Pan is Goku's successor.

[Miracles]

I just hope they have notes from Toriyama on a new movie/arc. If possible they could build on that.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

I just hope they have notes from Toriyama on a new movie/arc. If possible they could build on that.

He was definitely working on another film. I think Iyoku mentioned it in a pamphlet or something for Super Hero's release.

[TKA]

It would be remiss of me not to mention that Merus was the first potential kindred rival that Goku got in Super, but that didn't pan out. Funny how Moro is the least interesting or relevant part of his own arc.

This isn't the first time that the fanbase has twisted itself into knots trying to rationalise Goku's recurring acts of stupidity and callousness as some kind of Ultra Big Brain 4D Chess Lost-in-Translation Homophone Joke Only the Japanese Would Fully Appreciate. Yet it's been proven time and again that a spade is a spade:

Nice meme.

Now try reading what I said.

Goku isn't Swamp Thing written by Alan Moore. He's not going to peer off into the moon and give soliloquys about his mental state or the human condition. In lieu of going "I long for a partner I can train with and fight for the rest of my days," he simply just doesn't pay attention to things that don't in some way further that. That's who the character is.

People complained that this isn't like the original manga, and I won't argue that it is: it's foolish to. This is a Goku written 30 years after the original story ended. In that time, Toriyama has said time and time again that he wasn't satisfied with the view many people have of Goku due to the anime and the movies. It's not wild to think maybe he toned some things up and other things down to really hammer home who Goku actually is now that he was hands on with the franchise again.

That's what a lot of this boils down to; people projecting what they want/expect Goku to be. Toriyama's said time and time again that the concept of being a father isn't understood by Goku. Why would the concept of being a grandfather be clearer to him? He doesn't care about Pan enough to remember her until she starts training with him. Simple as.

[Mr Baggins]

In that time, Toriyama has said time and time again that he wasn't satisfied with the view many people have of Goku due to the anime and the movies. It's not wild to think maybe he toned some things up and other things down to really hammer home who Goku actually is now that he was hands on with the franchise again.

This, though I'd add those tone-ups were justified narratively and intradiegetically as well.

The entire premise of this character's role in Super boils down to one singular thing: Goku is bored. It's established in the first few pages of the very first chapter, and it's why "rivalry" is the central recurrent theme of this midquel series. The more bored he becomes, the more Goku's selfish and toxic traits manifest. Thanks to EoZ, we already know where that toxicity culminates; dude abandons his whole family to go spar with a stranger for several years on a whim. His characterization here is firmly in line with where we see him in the original manga's epilogue.

If there's anything that Super actually adds to the original work, it's showing us how that gradation occurred, and what sort of developments led to that final moment in the 28th tournament.

A straitlaced, noble family man is just not who Goku is. For the people that actually want this, with all due respect, I'd suggest perusing a story other than Dragon Ball. Not everything is for everyone, and that's fine.

[LoganForkHands73]

Nice meme.

Now try reading what I said.

Goku isn't Swamp Thing written by Alan Moore. He's not going to peer off into the moon and give soliloquys about his mental state or the human condition. In lieu of going "I long for a partner I can train with and fight for the rest of my days," he simply just doesn't pay attention to things that don't in some way further that. That's who the character is.

People complained that this isn't like the original manga, and I won't argue that it is: it's foolish to. This is a Goku written 30 years after the original story ended. In that time, Toriyama has said time and time again that he wasn't satisfied with the view many people have of Goku due to the anime and the movies. It's not wild to think maybe he toned some things up and other things down to really hammer home who Goku actually is now that he was hands on with the franchise again.

That's what a lot of this boils down to; people projecting what they want/expect Goku to be. Toriyama's said time and time again that the concept of being a father isn't understood by Goku. Why would the concept of being a grandfather be clearer to him? He doesn't care about Pan enough to remember her until she starts training with him. Simple as.

Thanks but the meme wasn’t directed at you, I agree with most of what you’re saying here. The complaints about the current state of Goku’s characterisation aren’t all unfounded, but Toriyama has been consistent in this direction since 2013 and it does seem to be a pointed reaction against the popular conception of Goku’s character.

[picc]

It is kinda sad that Goku has basically willingly abandoned his entire family to train on Beerus' planet, for two years prior and indefinitely for the future.

[LoganForkHands73]

To expand on my above points (had to be swift with my last reply), I've been thinking about what exactly discomforts people, myself included, about the low value Goku places on his friends and family. The ones who can't fight well, anyway. I say "discomfort" because I've started to think that's really the root of it, more than the general sentiments of frustration about writing inconsistency or whatever else. The idea of an otherwise likeable main protagonist always dropping not-so-subtle hints that he doesn't show care or affection for his loved ones unless they're actively entertaining his preferred hobby is... disheartening, sometimes. There aren't many protagonists, especially in shonen fiction, quite like Akira Toriyama's Son Goku. I appreciate the commitment to keeping him unique among a sea of cookie-cutter teenaged heroes who Fight For Their Friends.

I wrote a few long comments in one of the Gen Discussion posts talking about Goku's character and motivations in the Buu arc, I concluded with the realisation that Goku's life without fighting is quite depressing and empty. It's like what Baggins said, Goku, from the death of Pure Buu to the debut of Uub, is doing everything he can to stave off crippling boredom. The usual frantic pace of the manga sometimes obscures this. He still appreciates his pals just fine, but except for Vegeta (and a few others, per the latest developments), they can't give him the consistent stimulation he craves, so he neglects them, culminating in him failing to visit Bulma for five several years. Unlike in the early days, he can't just zoom off on Kinto'un the second he gets bored with a situation. But one of Super's ongoing themes is that despite Goku's apparent belief that the only direction he has left to go is outwards -- to outer space, to the afterlife, to godly realms, to other universes -- there are plenty of adventures and strong opponents left for him on Earth, he just hasn't had the motivation to look for them unless circumstances demand it. I know it's taboo to mention the Super an*me here, but a surprisingly poignant line from Goku to Gohan sums up the current situation quite well:

"... I've forgotten, this whole time, you've been right here beside me..."

I think part of the issue is that, although Goku's selfishness is an interesting facet of his characterisation, it can often feel like the only facet. Few people, real or fictional, including ones who dedicate their whole lives to a sport or hobby, are as utterly singleminded about their craft as Goku. Usually, characters with such overwhelming obsessions, to the extent that they neglect their loved ones, are portrayed in a very obviously negative light. When Goku forgets his own granddaughter, it's mostly played off as a dumb joke, just Goku bein' Goku. Vegeta and Piccolo may insult him for it, but we know that Goku won't learn or introspect from this experience, he'll only continue to make the same hurtful, insensitive mistakes, and everyone will move on. I've come to agree with a point JulieYBM has made several times, which is that we've been so trained to expect Toriyama's cynical, irreverent flavour of "subverting expectations" that we're no longer surprised or endeared by it. We know from experience that Goku should have more layers than this, so when people react with confusion, frustration or attempts to rationalise, I understand completely. They want their favourite character to be better. Ultimately, familial neglect is a form of abuse and it can be jarring for it to be played for laughs rather than treated seriously, but that's just how Toriyama operates. It's better to accept this than furiously rail against something that was never gonna change.

[Vectur123]

This isn't the first time that the fanbase has twisted itself into knots trying to rationalise Goku's recurring acts of stupidity and callousness as some kind of Ultra Big Brain 4D Chess Lost-in-Translation Homophone Joke Only the Japanese Would Fully Appreciate. Yet it's been proven time and again that a spade is a spade:

Goku (anime): Doesn't know what kissing is, has never kissed his wife.
Fans: Ah, he must have been confused by Trunks' gesture of feeding a senzu bean to Mai via mouth-to-mouth and didn't understand Vegeta drawing a connection to kissing!
Goku (manga): Doesn't know what kissing is, has never kissed his wife.
Fans:


Goku (movie): Doesn't view meditation as a valid form of training, barely understands what it even is.
Fans: Ah, it's not that he doesn't care about meditation, he just doesn't get why Vegeta has been sitting around for so long even though he's seen Vegeta do this exact form of visualisation training back in the Cell arc and praised him for it
Goku (manga): Doesn't veiw meditation as a valid form of training, barely understands what it even is.
Fans:


Goku (manga): Forgets his granddaughter's very existence.
Fans: Uhh... he got confused and thought Piccolo (famous solid-food-eater Piccolo) was going to pick up a loaf of bread? Because Pan is also a pun on bread, like how Gohan's name reflects "rice" or "meal"...


To be clear, I don't especially like the way Goku has been used for humour in recent years (just don't think it's funny, it's not that deep), but it's better to accept it than justify some "smart" joke behind the dumb joke. Only the latter adjective will ever apply with Goku, at least in his modern characterisation.

EDIT: Also, does this news about Toriyama's close involvement in scripting finally put to rest the recent arguments about Ultra Instinct "not being canon" to Toriyama's vision of Dragon Ball?

At least my interpretation of the meditation thing in the manga is that he was surprised Vegeta was training that way, not that he doens't view it as valid or not understand what that is, he was meditating like two arcs ago

[Alkiser]

To expand on my above points (had to be swift with my last reply), I've been thinking about what exactly discomforts people, myself included, about the low value Goku places on his friends and family. The ones who can't fight well, anyway. I say "discomfort" because I've started to think that's really the root of it, more than the general sentiments of frustration about writing inconsistency or whatever else. The idea of an otherwise likeable main protagonist always dropping not-so-subtle hints that he doesn't show care or affection for his loved ones unless they're actively entertaining his preferred hobby is... disheartening, sometimes. There aren't many protagonists, especially in shonen fiction, quite like Akira Toriyama's Son Goku. I appreciate the commitment to keeping him unique among a sea of cookie-cutter teenaged heroes who Fight For Their Friends.

I wrote a few long comments in one of the Gen Discussion posts talking about Goku's character and motivations in the Buu arc, I concluded with the realisation that Goku's life without fighting is quite depressing and empty. It's like what Baggins said, Goku, from the death of Pure Buu to the debut of Uub, is doing everything he can to stave off crippling boredom. The usual frantic pace of the manga sometimes obscures this. He still appreciates his pals just fine, but except for Vegeta (and a few others, per the latest developments), they can't give him the consistent stimulation he craves, so he neglects them, culminating in him failing to visit Bulma for five several years. Unlike in the early days, he can't just zoom off on Kinto'un the second he gets bored with a situation. But one of Super's ongoing themes is that despite Goku's apparent belief that the only direction he has left to go is outwards -- to outer space, to the afterlife, to godly realms, to other universes -- there are plenty of adventures and strong opponents left for him on Earth, he just hasn't had the motivation to look for them unless circumstances demand it. I know it's taboo to mention the Super an*me here, but a surprisingly poignant line from Goku to Gohan sums up the current situation quite well:

"... I've forgotten, this whole time, you've been right here beside me..."

I think part of the issue is that, although Goku's selfishness is an interesting facet of his characterisation, it can often feel like the only facet. Few people, real or fictional, including ones who dedicate their whole lives to a sport or hobby, are as utterly singleminded about their craft as Goku. Usually, characters with such overwhelming obsessions, to the extent that they neglect their loved ones, are portrayed in a very obviously negative light. When Goku forgets his own granddaughter, it's mostly played off as a dumb joke, just Goku bein' Goku. Vegeta and Piccolo may insult him for it, but we know that Goku won't learn or introspect from this experience, he'll only continue to make the same hurtful, insensitive mistakes, and everyone will move on. I've come to agree with a point JulieYBM has made several times, which is that we've been so trained to expect Toriyama's cynical, irreverent flavour of "subverting expectations" that we're no longer surprised or endeared by it. We know from experience that Goku should have more layers than this, so when people react with confusion, frustration or attempts to rationalise, I understand completely. They want their favourite character to be better. Ultimately, familial neglect is a form of abuse and it can be jarring for it to be played for laughs rather than treated seriously, but that's just how Toriyama operates. It's better to accept this than furiously rail against something that was never gonna change.

It is worth noting that Goku is a battle selfish in one aspect, he pays most attention to those who are equal or stronger than himself. Anyone on earth whom he surpassed without return ceased to interest him because he was unable to continue to strengthen himself insanely, which can be seen through earthlings such as Kuririn, Yamcha and Tien.

Although it was once said that Kuririn is his best friend, even to his former arch-enemy Vegeta he devotes time because he is an equal to him as a saiyan who is able to meet the needs of battle, and the same goes for anyone equal to or stronger than Goku. Which is perfectly illustrated when he took an interest in Gohan just when Gohan had become much more powerful than ever before.