"Serious Dragon Ball" erasure

[Yuji]

One prominent sentiment I've seen on this forum and other Dragon Ball fan bases that are more in-tune with Toriyama's comedic origins is a general disdain for the other part of the fan base that dislikes those elements, especially now with the release of Daima.

The question I want to pose these folks is if Dragon Ball from the Daimao arc to the Cell arc simply does not exist? Whether it was Toriyama's preference to write those more serious stories or not, the fact is they were still penned by him. Sure, they have their gags, but generally take themselves much more seriously.

I just wonder why we can't get along and admit that both tones of the franchise are equally as prevalent. "Real Dragon Ball" is neither just funny, light-hearted arcs that don't take themselves as seriously, nor serious business edge, it's a mixture of both.

[JulieYBM]

God, I misread this as bisexual erasure for a second there.

I think the issue at hand is that a lot of people like to be right and things and be the special birthday boy. I am, however, a perfect princess and good girl and have never done this myself (this is sarcasm).

Dragon Ball is a long work and long works—in fact, even short works—rarely if ever are entirely consistent the entire way through. I think there's definitely a lot of people who think that they're being Serious Academics by wagging their fingers at fans who might vocalize their love of the Serious Dragon Ball, just as I think that there's fans who might do the opposite. People are complex and fandoms are, unfortunately, made up of people and therefore will be complex.

I think the solution to escaping conflict with one's fandom is in being flexible and open-minded, while focusing on why one loves art, rather than what little arbitrary things about worldbuilding, tone or gay hair color of the week might be 'not high enough art' or whatever.

I dunno—if I'm going to #BeNegative about a work of art, I'm usually going to reserve my Discourse Energy for problematic elements that actually affect real people.

Anyway, I hope they bring back graphic depictions of characters losing limbs and increase the number of poop jokes in Dragon Ball Daima. Let's see Glorio lose an eye like Freeza did in those Dragon Ball Z flashbacks of his chopped-up body floating in space! Also, more poop jokes!

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

One prominent sentiment I've seen on this forum and other Dragon Ball fan bases that are more in-tune with Toriyama's comedic origins is a general disdain for the other part of the fan base that dislikes those elements, especially now with the release of Daima.

It doesn't help that the fans of "serious DB" are particularly obnoxious about the seriousness of "serious DB", and how they obnoxious use the same suspect examples (mild injueries, lost limbs, Recoom neck breaking Gohan, Gero penetrating Yamcha,civilian slaughtered by Cell, to name some) and unironically believe DB is for grown ups because of that, or it's close to something like Fist of The North Star. You hardly ever see fans of "not-serious" DB be that insecure about their series.

The question I want to pose these folks is if Dragon Ball from the Daimao arc to the Cell arc simply does not exist? Whether it was Toriyama's preference to write those more serious stories or not, the fact is they were still penned by him. Sure, they have their gags, but generally take themselves much more seriously.

I just wonder why we can't get along and admit that both tones of the franchise are equally as prevalent. "Real Dragon Ball" is neither just funny, light-hearted arcs that don't take themselves as seriously, nor serious business edge, it's a mixture of both.

While true that DB has both thing but, relating to the above, if you compile all the chapters of the original DB that have something "serious" (or mildly serious if you want to be generous) happening, I bet the statistic will give you that they make up about 10% (or perhaps lower) of the whole story.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Of course Dragon Ball can be wacky, whimsical, fun but also tense, ominous and serious. As Derek Padula said it's a "Fusion" manga. It mixes humans and aliens, mythical ancient Chinese folklore and futuristic technology, comedy and action. Its a melting pot of East meets West, ying and yang, natural and artificial.

Just because a series evolves and embraces different tones doesn't mean it can't come around full circle. I love how the series starts as a goofy spoof of Journey to the West, grows into something where the fate of the planet hangs in the balance and then goes back to its roots for the Boo arc. Its like how we grow up, become mature adults and remain young at heart.

Dragon Ball can be serious, but it's not Game of Thrones or The Sopranos, there's inherent humour and lightheartedness at the centre of it all. It's a fun ride the whole way through even when the going gets tough. I'm not saying more mature, adult-skewing works are better, they are good at what they're trying to do and Dragon Ball does what it's trying to do very well. There's good and bad in both.

Toriyama said the Bardock special is like nothing he would ever write, but that doesn't invalidate his own stories, which are nowhere near as dark, its just a different take, a different flavour of Dragon Ball, a novelty if you will. It may be some of the best Dragon Ball content but obviously it's not the entirety of the series, nor should it be.

The reason the Shunsuke Kikuchi score was the perfect Dragon Ball score was because it captures everything about Toriyama's world. It can be upbeat, somber, tense, or whatever it needs to be when the moment calls for it. I've never understood the complaints everything from Raditz onwards needs a different score because Dragon Ball becomes indistinguishable from what it was before. There's electric guitar in some of the movies so if you want rock there's elements of it, but because Dragon Ball is a Fusion anime and manga that is not all you hear, it's just part of the recipe.

[AliTheZombie13]

To be honest, I've grown up my entire life hearing that the Original is "mid", GT is trash and Z is the "Ultimate Dragon Ball" experience.
I cannot disagree more with that sentiment.

If anything, considering the way Daima was shunned upon reveal, I'd say that is still the popular opinion here.
Those of us who prefer light-hearted adventure DB are still a minority.

On topic: I'm not opposed to "Serious Dragon Ball", I'm opposed to "Serious Dragon Ball That's Just Fight Fight Fight and Nothing Else."
IMO, the Daimao, Saiyan, Namek and Baby arcs had a good blend of adventure, comedy, drama and action.

The Z Movies, the last two arcs of GT, Super and Heroes are great examples of what I mean, but the powers that be seem incredibly hesitant in diverging because, apparently, that's what Dragon Ball fans want the most (ie: what brings them more money)

[jjgp1112]

I've developed a serious disdain for the "Dragon Ball hipster" as I've come to call them. As Kunzait has pointed out a few times in the past, their perception of DB might be even more warped than the "DBZEEE" fan base. People gotta be realistic about what draws people's attention to the franchise, because even Japan puts Z first and foremost while treating the first half of the story as a prequel.

The reason the Shunsuke Kikuchi score was the perfect Dragon Ball score was because it captures everything about Toriyama's world. It can be upbeat, somber, tense, or whatever it needs to be when the moment calls for it. I've never understood the complaints everything from Raditz onwards needs a different score because Dragon Ball becomes indistinguishable from what it was before. There's electric guitar in some of the movies so if you want rock there's elements of it, but because Dragon Ball is a Fusion anime and manga that is not all you hear, it's just part of the recipe.

That take has always been people working backwards to justify the Faulconer score. Copium basically. Because nobody said shit when Dead Zone and the World's Strongest had different music

[MasenkoHA]

Tbh I think its just a mixture of real fan syndrome, auteur theory, and over correction

Because Toriyama usually writes gag stories with poop and fart jokes fans feel the need to point to serious Dragon Ball isn't real Dragon Ball or something. The fact that your average English speaking Dragon Ball was introduced to the serious stuff first and are usually more put off by the gag stuff (early Dragon Ball, Dr.Slump when it crosses over, Buu saga, first arc of GT) so the fans who do like that stuff feel more defensive. "Well, that's what Toriyama-sama prefers"

And at the end of day Dragon Ball exist so Toriyama had beer money. It was never an artistic passion just a commercial product created by a guy who could draw and likes kung fu movies and adjusted the story by what was popular at the time

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

And at the end of day Dragon Ball exist so Toriyama had beer money. It was never an artistic passion just a commercial product created by a guy who could draw and likes kung movies and adjusted story by what was popular at the time

There is a mindset perpetuated by figures like Theodor Adorno and George Bernard Shaw, the latter of which once said "You cannot combine the pursuit of money with the pursuit of art". It became something of an academic cliche that art and business cannot co-exist or harmonise but I disagree.

Toriyama did create Dragon Ball to make money, but theres nothing wrong with that, I wholeheartedly believe it's a story he was genuinely inspired to write. It grew from a simple weekly manga to a global pop culture phenomenon because it struck a chord with people all over the world.

Great art can and has been monetarily driven. Striving for too much financial gain is greed, but aspiring for none is unrealistic and not what anyone really wants. Dragon Ball hits that sweet spot between being a commercial product and being an inspiring, imaginative work.

[Kunzait_83]

At the end of the day, Dragon Ball's tone is BOTH "lighthearted gag manga dick & fart joke whimsy" and also simultaneously it is "serious" (relatively, and whatever that means to you), dramatic, hyper violent, and bone crunchingly brutal.

Its not either/or. Its both, and its both simultaneously all at once.

Embracing Dragon Ball means embracing both of these diametrically contrasting aspects at the same time, and in the same breath. If you're only choosing to pick one and stick with one and not both, then you're just not embracing what makes Dragon Ball (and much of the genre in which it occupies for that matter) what it is. Full stop, you're choosing to have a purposefully selective view of it that is divorced from the objective reality of what's actually depicted on the page/on screen.

And yeah, broken record here as always: but this simultaneous juggling act of silly whimsy and serious drama/hardcore violence is also not unique to Dragon Ball or Toriyama. That juggling of two disparate, diametrically opposing tones is and always has been part and parcel of Wuxia's whole genre DNA. I even delved specifically into the historical reasons for why and how exactly it developed in that manner in the Wuxia thread.

In great detail.

I've developed a serious disdain for the "Dragon Ball hipster" as I've come to call them. As Kunzait has pointed out a few times in the past, their perception of DB might be even more warped than the "DBZEEE" fan base.

Said it before, will continue to say it: "DEE BEE ZEE" fanboy-ism is rooted in an actual version of the series that exists and can be watched/experienced: that being the FUNimation dub. I very much dislike that version, I think its practically anti-Dragon Ball, and I think it always was and always will be completely unwatchable cringe dogshit: but its a real, tangible thing that exists and people are fans of it from having watched and experienced it. Its there in an objective reality that we can all witness.

This other view of Dragon Ball however - the one that SOLELY fixates on and highlights its whimsical gag-manga side and completely ignores, downplays, or undermines its more violent/dramatic side - is something altogether different entirely. It is NOT rooted in ANY version of the series: certainly not the original Japanese/Toriyama version, despite what its proponents may believe.

Rather, it was birthed almost solely on Dragon Ball message board forums (like this one), among primarily Western Dragon Ball fans, and primarily as a reflexive reactive backlash against the FUNimation dub and its "revisioning". It has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that is objectively there on the page/on screen in ANY version of the series, including the original Japanese.

It is entirely a reactionary backlash against the FUNimation "revision", but one that is wholly divorced from any basic knowledge, insight, or curiosity into the wider and broader cultural & creative history and context that lead to it and that exists outside of and divorced from other Shonen manga/anime.

This completely made up "Friendship is Magic", One Piece-ified version of Dragon Ball that a certain segment of the Western sub audience claims to be what Dragon Ball actually is is in actuality a completely invented fantasy version of Dragon Ball that does not, and never has existed in any capacity except within the collective imaginations of a certain segment of its fanbase.

In this sense, yeah, the hardcore FUNimation dub fans are actually grounded MORE in objective reality than a swath of the Western Japanese/sub fanbase are. At least the dub fans' weirdo version of Dragon Ball is a thing you can actually watch and see for yourself.

This other, alternate "One Piece in a dogi" version of Dragon Ball where its comprised mainly if not solely of silly lightheartedness and has no other sides to it... in order to spin it that way, you have to basically willfully block-out GIGANTIC swathes of the series that takes its dramatic moments very earnestly, and where characters are largely getting their skulls caved-in in an orgy of violent and bloody martial arts battles which are all right there and are plainly evident.

If all my warblings about Wuxia and Martial Arts Fantasy are too "foreign" and "alien" for some folks here, then I'll pull out a much more familiar Western/American example to compare against: Indiana Jones.

Indiana Jones are movies which are:

A) Lighthearted and silly fun.
B) Made for little kids and a broad mainstream audience.
And C) chock full of incredibly harsh, bloody, graphic violence and harrowing dramatic moments.

All at the same time and in the same breath.

This kind of mixture is NOT unique to Dragon Ball OR Wuxia more broadly. This kind of mixture isn't remotely niche and is in fact VERY mainstream: you just have to look at things outside of super safe Saturday morning kids' cartoon television to find them.

This kind of hyper-literal and extreme "a work can only or mainly be either super serious or super lighthearted silly, but not both" that so much of this fanbase seems to perpetually operate under is something that is *completely* counter-factual to whole entire universes' worth of TV, film, and literary media which have always existed in the mainstream since time immemorial.

This is essentially what you get basically when you have a fanbase who understands that the original version is markedly different from what FUNimation had produced, but refuses to look at any other factors that went into its development outside of strictly those relating to the Japanese Shonen market.

The fact that it was right during the birthing of this segment of the Western DB fanbase where One Piece was first gaining popularity and momentum internationally whilst marketing and billing itself as "Dragon Ball's successor" is in no way whatsoever coincidental, and I would argue was also instrumental in helping to (wholly unintentionally of course) create this kind of weirdo vision for the series in the minds of so many fans.

The early to mid-2000s were pivotal years in the development of the Western Dragon Ball fanbase, and the cocktail of factors that were prevalent within those years created numerous kinds of "meta-narratives" about the series that have since calcified into iron-clad folklore and mainstream conventional wisdom surrounding not just Dragon Ball, but anime and manga as a whole. This is also where/how you get the concept of a "Battle Shonen" genre, another complete invention of this whole era of Western anime fandom that wasn't ever a thing anywhere prior to that point.

All roads in the Western Dragon Ball's fanbase's dysfunctional relationship with the series (and also with the anime/manga mediums in which it resides) ultimately usually winds up back at its continued refusal to look at the series beyond or outside of the context of either American (dub fans) or Japanese (sub fans) children's media. Which means completely missing out on all of the other works outside of other kids' media that gave the series the creative DNA that it ultimately had.

Its just little more than a collective narrow, myopic over-fixation on one single corner of the overall media landscape out there which has continued to poison the fanbase's basic understanding of what should otherwise be an incredibly simple, silly, stupid children's kung fu fantasy serial that is very much decidedly uncomplicated and obvious.

[super michael]

I enjoy Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball GT and Dragon Ball Daima. I know the focus of each of them are different, but I still enjoy it.
Dragon Ball Super manga is also enjoyable to read.

[VegettoEX]

There's a lot being written here... but it's so generalized and non-specific that, quite frankly, I reject the original question/premise outright.

Who are these people that are saying this, what authority or sway do they hold, and what are their exact statements...?

If we're talking about Joe Schmoe making a response buried under 17 other posts on Reddit, or even here on this very forum... I'm sorry for the crass remark, but think it's necessary to underscore the point to the extreme that I truly intend: but who the fuck cares?

Otherwise, please tell me who these people are? Name and shame. Who are the influential people creating this supposed movement of complete reversal and "erasure" of the "serious" parts of the franchise? What are their verbatim statements?

This doesn't exist. This doesn't happen.

What's actually happening here is that people extrapolate simple comments and observations into wildly larger arguments which aren't being made, and because it's the modern internet, even the best-intentioned people get wrapped up in culture wars and fighting over nothing.

I speak and respond strongly about this because it happens to me all the time. People accuse me of this exact kind of thing ("the Kaizenshuu cabal is trying to change what Dragon Ball IS!!!!!")... but it's nothing I've ever said, and isn't how I feel. People latch on to me simply liking some other element other than blood and guts, and extrapolate that out and accuse me of this exact "SERIOUS CONTENT ERASURE" you're promoting.

This isn't happening*, and I reject this entirely.

(This did happen once: with the earliest audiences of the series, contemporary with its original serialization [which I can guarantee none of you/us were a part of], when Toriyama transitioned into tournament arcs, and portions of Toriyama's gag audience fanbase weren't on board. Of course it opened up an entirely new audience, so whatever -- everyone ultimately ended up "winning" in the end with content across the board.)

All that being said, and all at the same time, and acknowledging a slight bit of frustrated-hypocrisy: yes, I think if you can't take a poop joke or two (or even ten), maybe you've hyper-fixated on certain things and have missed the forest for the trees.

[Luso Saiyan]

And at the end of day Dragon Ball exist so Toriyama had beer money. It was never an artistic passion just a commercial product created by a guy who could draw and likes kung fu movies and adjusted the story by what was popular at the time

That's a very myopic and fallaciously reductive view of things.

[MasenkoHA]

And at the end of day Dragon Ball exist so Toriyama had beer money. It was never an artistic passion just a commercial product created by a guy who could draw and likes kung fu movies and adjusted the story by what was popular at the time

That's a very myopic and fallaciously reductive view of things.

It's also, y'know, accurate.

Doing something you're good at to make money isn't a bad thing y'all. It's how our world works!

[Yuji]

And at the end of day Dragon Ball exist so Toriyama had beer money. It was never an artistic passion just a commercial product created by a guy who could draw and likes kung fu movies and adjusted the story by what was popular at the time

That's a very myopic and fallaciously reductive view of things.

It's also, y'know, accurate.

Doing something you're good at to make money isn't a bad thing y'all. It's how our world works!

Toriyama gained some love for Dragon Ball over the years, though, or he wouldn't have felt so personally insulted by Evolution to want to rewrite Battle of Gods, or wouldn't have cared so much about Daima either.

[super michael]

Toriyama put a lot of effort into making his manga, even if he took some shortcuts such as saving ink on making SSJ the way that he did. That doesn't reduce the quality of the manga.

[Luso Saiyan]

It's also, y'know, accurate.

No, it's not. Otherwise it wouldn't be "myopic and fallaciously reductive".

Doing something you're good at to make money isn't a bad thing y'all. It's how our world works!

Yes, but that's not all you said and you know it.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I think the solution to escaping conflict with one's fandom is in being flexible and open-minded, while focusing on why one loves art, rather than what little arbitrary things about worldbuilding, tone or gay hair color of the week might be 'not high enough art' or whatever.

One perhaps needs to be aware of other franchises with shifting tones.

For instance, Lupin III, as a cops and robbers tale, walks the line between a crime story involving a bunch of ruthless mercenaries and a fun adventure story starring a gang of goofy thrill-seekers. But even if one chooses one aspect over the other, you just have to appreciate the whole of the saga.

[WittyUsername]

To be honest, the most serious things associated with Dragon Ball have been the Bardock and Trunks specials, and the former was a story that Toriyama admitted he himself would never be able to write, while the latter greatly expanded on something he wrote, and is much more dramatic as a result.

[AliTheZombie13]

One perhaps needs to be aware of other franchises with shifting tones.

For instance, Lupin III, as a cops and robbers tale, walks the line between a crime story involving a bunch of ruthless mercenaries and a fun adventure story starring a gang of goofy thrill-seekers. But even if one chooses one aspect over the other, you just have to appreciate the whole of the saga.

I grew up with the classic Resident Evil trilogy on the PS1, and because of poverty, I never had an opportunity to play the latter games until several years later. As a result, I wasn't very fond of the genre slowly shifting from straight-up horror to action to a blend of the two.

I still vastly prefer Resident Evil as a horror franchise and am not very fond of the crazy action fantasy elements they implement in later titles. I don't judge people if they like Fantasy Action Resident Evil, nor do I impose my will on the franchise, but I have preferences and I want them to be respected.

If I tell you, "I'm more of a horror fan and I don't like Call of Duty-like games", that's not an attack on your person or the creators, it's just me stating a preference, and I sleep well knowing nothing whatsoever I say no matter how harsh will change Resident Evil selling millions of copies every year.

All of this also applies to Dragon Ball.
Yes, Dragon Ball is about comedy, martial arts, adventure, and universal-stakes serious action. I acknowledge that, but it won't stop me from thinking the battles are boring flashes of light being thrown at each other, while characters change hair color and scream for minutes boasting about fictional strength numbers, and I'm vastly more interested in the character/comedy/adventure side that before Daima had been neglected for so long.

[JulieYBM]

I think the solution to escaping conflict with one's fandom is in being flexible and open-minded, while focusing on why one loves art, rather than what little arbitrary things about worldbuilding, tone or gay hair color of the week might be 'not high enough art' or whatever.

One perhaps needs to be aware of other franchises with shifting tones.

For instance, Lupin III, as a cops and robbers tale, walks the line between a crime story involving a bunch of ruthless mercenaries and a fun adventure story starring a gang of goofy thrill-seekers. But even if one chooses one aspect over the other, you just have to appreciate the whole of the saga.

Eh, yeah. I mean, I swear that I can't be the only person on the planet you likes more than one thing, but so often there's these stark contrasts within fandom spaces that split off into the silliest little tribes and I'm like...okay? Whatever?

Give me poop jokes and then give me hot topless guys punching bloody holes into one another's torsos!