What is needed to become a Super Saiyan?

I like DB(Z) (...) · Post by **I like DB(Z) (...)** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:39 pm

Me and my friend are making a fanfiction, and we were arguing what is needed to become a Super Saiyan.
I say you need a high power level and great emotion/rage.
He says you need only great emotion/rage.
Who is right?

Bomber Greek · Post by **Bomber Greek** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:01 pm

First is right. If you only needed rage, Goku would've turned into a Super Saiyan when

Spoiler:

I like DB(Z) (...) · Post by **I like DB(Z) (...)** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:11 pm

Thanks, and I have seen up to that part.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:39 pm

Bomber Greek wrote:First is right. If you only needed rage, Goku would've turned into a Super Saiyan when
Spoiler:
Kuririn got killed in Dragon Ball.

His hair does stand up, though.

nitemare · Post by **nitemare** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:04 pm

Make sure your character is of Saiyan race, only them can tranform in Super Saiyan ;p

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece · Post by **Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:13 pm

The character must be pure of heart, and when that purity is tainted, they become a Super Saiyan. They also need high power, but listen in:

There needs to be a tainted purity, such as a calm heart becoming tainted with rage, a prideful heart becomes modest (as was the case with Vegeta), and the like.

Also, keep in mind what has happened to the Saiyan race, if this takes place after GT. Not everyone is a Super Saiyan, and those who would exist after GT (after Vegeta Jr and Goku Jr, to be exact) would have blood far too diluted to use the transformation.

A Quasi form such as that shown in movie 4?

Possibly, but we can't really know for sure, can we?

I like DB(Z) (...) · Post by **I like DB(Z) (...)** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:13 pm

nitemare wrote:Make sure your character is of Saiyan race, only them can tranform in Super Saiyan ;p

Don't worry, she'll be a Saiyan... with diluted blood, yeah, but me and my friend only read manga.

I like DB(Z) (...) · Post by **I like DB(Z) (...)** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:20 pm

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote: There needs to be a tainted purity, such as a calm heart becoming tainted with rage, a prideful heart becomes modest (as was the case with Vegeta), and the like.

So in other words, the heart needs to be filled with an emotion completely oposite to it's "natural" (for lack of a better word) emotion

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote: Also, keep in mind what has happened to the Saiyan race, if this takes place after GT. Not everyone is a Super Saiyan, and those who would exist after GT (after Vegeta Jr and Goku Jr, to be exact) would have blood far too diluted to use the transformation.

Actually, the Saiyan comes to Earth YEARS before DB starts (it was thought he/she was killed in a volcanoe accident. But she/he actually survived), and the blood continues through the generations.
She becomes a SSJ during the time between the end of Cell saga, and before the Buu saga (in other words, during the 7 years time difference).

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:05 pm

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:The character must be pure of heart, and when that purity is tainted, they become a Super Saiyan. They also need high power, but listen in:

There needs to be a tainted purity, such as a calm heart becoming tainted with rage, a prideful heart becomes modest (as was the case with Vegeta), and the like.

No, that's already been proven wrong. It's nothing to do with their heart. They just need a powerful anger. Goku's anger was at Freeza for Krillin's death. Vegeta's was at himself for his failure to surpass Goku.

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:Also, keep in mind what has happened to the Saiyan race, if this takes place after GT. Not everyone is a Super Saiyan, and those who would exist after GT (after Vegeta Jr and Goku Jr, to be exact) would have blood far too diluted to use the transformation.

Not really. Toei already tried to claim that with Pan and it was proven false with Goku Jr. There really isn't anything to suggest that the DNA that allows for the SSJ form wouldn't be passed on. So even after ten thousand years you could still get a Super Saiya-jin.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:44 pm

There's a site, too?!

Scroll down to Super Saiya'jin.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:24 pm

Xyex wrote:
Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:The character must be pure of heart, and when that purity is tainted, they become a Super Saiyan. They also need high power, but listen in:

There needs to be a tainted purity, such as a calm heart becoming tainted with rage, a prideful heart becomes modest (as was the case with Vegeta), and the like.
No, that's already been proven wrong. It's nothing to do with their heart. They just need a powerful anger. Goku's anger was at Freeza for Krillin's death. Vegeta's was at himself for his failure to surpass Goku.

Actually, I think both views are valid. Super Saiyans are born from anger, yes, but this anger is in turn the result of a tainted purity. I especially like this aspect about the SSj, because it makes it a different story for each character instead of just getting really angry.

Gaiash · Post by **Gaiash** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:51 pm

Bomber Greek wrote:First is right. If you only needed rage, Goku would've turned into a Super Saiyan when
Spoiler:
Kuririn got killed in Dragon Ball.

Imagine if he did.

Bomber Greek · Post by **Bomber Greek** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:06 pm

Gaiash wrote:
Bomber Greek wrote:First is right. If you only needed rage, Goku would've turned into a Super Saiyan when
Spoiler:
Kuririn got killed in Dragon Ball.
Imagine if he did.

The humans would become useless even earlier than they did.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:27 am

Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:The character must be pure of heart, and when that purity is tainted, they become a Super Saiyan.

That's actually not true, Goku's purity never becomes tainted, he simply becomes rageful. There is evidence to suggest this:
1) Goku had Freeza's ego in consideration: He let him power all the way up so that he wouldn't have regrets about losing to a Super Saiyan.

2) Goku had Freeza's safety in consideration: He screams at him to stay down when he sees Freeza's ki en zan about to hit him from behind

3) Goku showed him mercy out of kindness: He was willing to help Freeza when Freeza was dying, even after all the horrible things that Freeza had done.

The requirements of Super Saiyan are actually more complex then simply having a large power and feeling rage.

1)Super Saiyan occurs when a Saiyan has reached their natural limit, and is overcome with rage or despair: (Goku becomes rageful at Freeza and in despair when he realizes that he was not strong enough to save Kuririn, Vegeta, and Piccolo (which turns out to be a fluke). Vegeta feels despair upon realizing the possibility of him never reaching Super Saiyan or surpass Goku) ---->>>> Vegeta also states that he felt despair when he realized that he was at his limit, and couldn't become stronger. And also Vegeta's case actually leads to the next requirement:

2) It can't happen by simply wanting it to: Goku never wanted to become a Super Saiyan, it simply happened for him. Same with Vegeta: Vegeta even stated that the second that he started to not want it anymore, it happened. Gohan's case is a bit odd, but it happened out of despair of thinking that he wasn't strong enough to save the people he loved. Also if I'm not mistaken, Gohan questioned his ability to ascend in the first place.

3) Originally it's stated that you must be pure of heart: This is changed when kid Trunks becomes a Super Saiyan. Kid Trunks is not pure good, and he is obviously not pure evil. I think that this was a plothole, and maybe a plot hole that Toriyama realized, but neglected. Toriyama wanted Goten to replace Goku in the series, so he made a character who was a mini Goku in every way, including his Super Saiyan ability. Toriyama made Trunks a Super Saiyan so that he simply could be a sparring partner for Goten.

Shenron · Post by **Shenron** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:05 pm

1) Goku had Freeza's ego in consideration: He let him power all the way up so that he wouldn't have regrets about losing to a Super Saiyan.

I think Goku only wanted to fight 100% Freeza because of his own ego : he wanted to beat the strongest being in the universe.

3) Originally it's stated that you must be pure of heart

Kuririn is the only one to say that, and nobody approves or disapproves this statement. Well, Vegeta does, but with sarcasm, so...

Post by **TripleRach** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:06 pm

I've already tried to debunk this a few times, and wasn't going to do it again here, but I give... No one says anything about a "pure heart" but Vegeta.

Gokuu says "calm" in his speech.

Kuririn says "calm" when he questions Vegeta's transformation.

Vegeta replies to Kuririn that his heart is "calm and pure."

Kuririn and Vegeta were both dead during Gokuu's speech, Gohan and Piccolo (who was unconscious anyway) were shooed away, everyone else was dead and/or never had been to the planet, Freeza never spoke to any of them before Trunks killed him, and Gokuu's just not the type to go "Hey guys, you totally should've heard this cool stuff I said to Freeza."

With all of this in mind, and giving the author's memory the benefit of the doubt here, I think it's safe to assume Kuririn was supposed to be questioning Vegeta on behalf of the audience moreso than himself, since we heard Gokuu's speech, but he could not have. And if that's the case, Toriyama would have been trying to convey to the audience that the calmness vs anger thing was key, at least for Gokuu and Vegeta.

Vegeta's line about having a purely evil heart, meanwhile, doesn't have that kind of verification. Plus, it's obviously untrue anyway.

DemonKingPiccolo · Post by **DemonKingPiccolo** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:26 am

Shenron wrote:
1) Goku had Freeza's ego in consideration: He let him power all the way up so that he wouldn't have regrets about losing to a Super Saiyan.
I think Goku only wanted to fight 100% Freeza because of his own ego : he wanted to beat the strongest being in the universe.

Dragon Ball, volume 27, pg 115: Goku-"I'm waiting for you to reach full power Freeza. I want to beat you while you're at your best, so you'll have no regrets as a warrior."

Kuririn is the only one to say that, and nobody approves or disapproves this statement. Well, Vegeta does, but with sarcasm, so...

Dragon Ball, volume 27, pg 90: Goku-"The legendary warrior, with a pure heart awakened by rage. Son Goku... the Super Saiyan!!!!"

Post by **TripleRach** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:38 am

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:Dragon Ball, volume 27, pg 90: Goku-"The legendary warrior, with a pure heart awakened by rage. Son Goku... the Super Saiyan!!!!"

...I hope that's not Viz's translation. ._.

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:Dragon Ball, volume 27, pg 115: Goku-"I'm waiting for you to reach full power Freeza. I want to beat you while you're at your best, so you'll have no regrets as a warrior."

...And if that's Viz's translation, they really got some 'splainin to do.

フリーザ...　きさまがフルパワーになるのを待っているのは...
最高のきさまをたたきのめしたいからだ...　戦士として悔いのないように......

Now, while I don't claim to be 100% fluent, this sounds a lot more like it should be, "Freeza... I'm waiting for you to reach your full power... because I want to beat the best you... so I'll have no regrets as a warrior..."

Shenron · Post by **Shenron** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:43 am

Now, while I don't claim to be 100% fluent, this sounds a lot more like it should be, "Freeza... I'm waiting for you to reach your full power... because I want to beat the best you... so I'll have no regrets as a warrior..."

That sounds like the 1st french translation, though I'm not 100% it is accurate in this case..

Dragon Ball, volume 27, pg 115: Goku-"I'm waiting for you to reach full power Freeza. I want to beat you while you're at your best, so you'll have no regrets as a warrior."

Idem, the translation I have is more like :
"When I lose my composure, and a huge anger overcomes me, I transform into a legendary warrior".