Why are certain trained humans so very weak in DBZ?

[Teclo]

Something that I've always wondered about and that I just recalled as I was playing Budokai Tenkaichi 2 is why are humans such a Videl and Mr Satan so pathetically weak compared to humans such as Krillin and to a lesser extent (I believe) Yamcha?

Now I've read the manga up to the arrival of Radditz so I know about the training that Yamcha and Krillin received from Master Roshi, Krillin only being 13 at the time as I recall. However, Gohan is far more powerful than Master Roshi and has many more techniques at his disposal and Videl was only about 3 years older than Krillin was when his training began - why could he only teach Videl to fly? There's even a little skit in Budokai 3 where Videl confronts Gohan about this and states that she believes he's holding back the secret of energy blasts.

Really, it just seems odd that a guy like Krillin (who I love as a character but he's hardly a fine specimen physically speaking) can have a power level of tens, if not hundreds of thousands while on Namek but Videl peaks at power level 9. It's not just Videl - even "Majin" Spopovich apparently only has a power level of 14. The only two fighting characters in the DBZ world that he could defeat at that level are Videl and the farmer than shoots at Radditz... I'm sure he and Videl couldn't even defeat any old DB baddies such as General Blue. Sure he could take apart the average human but so could any real-life martial artist.

I guess you can take my question two ways: Why is Videl so weak compared to the other humans that have received training? or How come Yamcha and Krillin are so awesomely powerful compared to pretty much every other human, even before Roshi's training?

[Tsukento]

Simple. Mr. Satan and Videl didn't have the same kind of training Kuririn and Yamcha had. The father/daughter duo didn't train under a worldly known martial arts master, nor did they scale a tower that was only scaled by two people before Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Chaozu, nor did they train under "God's" supervision. The two also did not train under 10x Earth's normal gravity or with the aid of another Lord that is known for his incredible attack techniques.

That's what it really boils down to. That and Kuririn and Yamcha were trained to control their Ki. Mr. Satan thinks Ki control is the usage of special effects. Videl has only mastered the ability to fly, but not to the extreme speeds the others have achieved.

[Teclo]

Thanks for your quick reply.

Well you are of course right but I did actually point out that Krillin and Yamcha were also significantly more powerful than other "trained humans" even before they had any training.

Yamcha actually gave Goku a run for his money when they first met and while Krillin was always outdone by Goku he wasn't so very far behind and really surprised Master Roshi.

I can't help but put it down to Toriyama's reluctance to make female characters particularly strong (in the case of Videl). As far as I can remember the only 100% canonical female that was formidable was Android 18.

[Daizensushi-x]

Videl peaks at power level 9. It's not just Videl - even "Majin" Spopovich apparently only has a power level of 14.

I'll be the first to say it, so a million people don't...urm..."flame" you. There is nothing to base those estimated power levels off of. As you probably know, scouters and power levels stop being used after the Freeza saga.

So be careful when talking about them.

[Teclo]

Videl peaks at power level 9. It's not just Videl - even "Majin" Spopovich apparently only has a power level of 14.

I'll be the first to say it, so a million people don't...urm..."flame" you. There is nothing to base those estimated power levels off of. As you probably know, scouters and power levels stop being used after the Freeza saga.

So be careful when talking about them.

Hehe, thanks for the heads up. Well I did actually know that (though I admit I only found out relatively recently) but I guess I was just using it as shorthand for saying "very weak". It's just a habit to think of DBZ characters in terms of power levels.

It's certainly safe to say that she's significantly more skilled/powerful than the average human but while she's not given over to comic relief like Mr Satan she's still treated like Chichi, Bulma etc when it comes to any serious action; stand far away and maybe make the odd comment like "I hope Gohan's OK!"

[Xyex]

Videl peaks at power level 9. It's not just Videl - even "Majin" Spopovich apparently only has a power level of 14.

I'll be the first to say it, so a million people don't...urm..."flame" you. There is nothing to base those estimated power levels off of. As you probably know, scouters and power levels stop being used after the Freeza saga.

So be careful when talking about them.

Yeah, those would be pure fan speculation. Though I know where 9 comes from. That whole idea that being at 10 (Goku's level at the start of DB) makes you bullet proof. Personally, I've never bought that. Always attributed Goku's bullet-proofness to other things... being Saiya-jin, being thick-headed, being a gag manga at the time.... yeah.

Anyway, yeah, Krillin and Yamcha were already stronger than normal when they first appeared. Can't say as to why for Yamcha but considering two the other monks from Krillin's temple were at the 21st Budokai he probably had training there before he sought out Roshi. I guess Yamcha just got his from his chosen 'profession' at the time.

Meanwhile Hercule was just an average human who was a skilled fighter. And I'd say Videl was somewhere on the cusp between 'average human' and 'stronger than normal' when she showed up and the series didn't cover enough time between then and the end (with her still as a fighter, anyway) for her to make any major improvements.

[Teclo]

Yeah, if "abilities" such as being bullet proof could be so cleanly attributes to power level you'd come across all sorts of issues, such as "if they suppress their power level to 9 or less would they be vulnerable" and "how does being shot by a bullet compare to being punched by various DBZ antagonists".

That is to say, if you can be bullet proof wouldn't you also be "punch proof" against most enemies assuming that their general punches won't pack quite the kick (oh now I feel like Kaio-sama) of a bullet, or would they? etc, etc.

[caejones]

Orinji temple = probably taught ki stuff.
Grandpa Gohan = Probably taught ki stuff.
Yamcha = Probably had lots of free time to practice ki stuff.
Videl = Probably trained similar to her father until Gohan taught her ki stuff, which if started so late takes a while to master.
So really, Chi Chi should be stronger than Videl in the Buu Saga... but Videl can fly...
Mr. Satan is the Chuck Noris of DBZ.

[Casual Matt]

Orinji temple = probably taught ki stuff.
Grandpa Gohan = Probably taught ki stuff.
Yamcha = Probably had lots of free time to practice ki stuff.
Videl = Probably trained similar to her father until Gohan taught her ki stuff, which if started so late takes a while to master.
So really, Chi Chi should be stronger than Videl in the Buu Saga... but Videl can fly...
Mr. Satan is the Chuck Noris of DBZ.

This demands a mistersatanfacts.com

[Shenron]

I don't think Videl is that weak. After all, she's learned how to fly in only one day, although she didn't know anything about ki before that. Not only that, but every character in DB could launch Ki blasts before they could fly, which could mean it's very difficult and requires much more control.

I think that Yamcha, Kuririn, and the others characters who've been introduced at the beginning of Dragonball are abnormaly strong, just because DB was not supposed to be realistic.

And, maybe Videl's thing is not physical strength, maybe she's better at using her Ki. Who knows, with a proper training she could be able to shot powerful Ki blasts too !

[caejones]

I got the impression it took more than a day for Videl to learn how to fly? But maybe I'm just mis interpreting things. XD.

[Kaboom]

I got the impression it took more than a day for Videl to learn how to fly? But maybe I'm just mis interpreting things. XD.

She went from knowing nothing about ki to being able to hover a few inches off the ground in one day, which is pretty impressive. It took her a few more days of practice with Gohan to be able to actually "fly," though.

[kaioken12]

I was always wondering about that.
In Dragon Ball flying was a really special technique and to the end some other characters (Goku, Kuririn...) had learned it as well.

Then, Videl, who can't use Ki to attack in form of energy, learned it pretty fast on the other hand.

About shooting Ki-blasts, this always was very special.
If I remember it correctly it took Roshi about 50 years to use the Kamehameha properly (okay, by now he can destroy planetoids like the moon with it, that's pretty very strong for a human).

He was always amazed how strong the Z fighters (Goku, Kuririn, Tenshinhan...) were even as kids.

That's the difference between them ("super" fighters) compared to the "ordinary" fighters - they can use Ki and learned fighting in a special way in this context, where Satan or Videl are "just" (strong) humans.

I mean, speaking of Tenkaichi, Satan was always made too weak imho.
Alright, he was weak and all, but then again, for a "non ki" human, he was strong, so they could at least have him land some punches on weaker characters with no "wall effect".
And Videl was really strong - she had about the same health as Kaioshin or Zangya


But well, to put it in a nutshell, Satan and Videl are just strong humans and no fighters that can use their Ki and convert it for energy blasts or increase of stamina and that's why they are a bunch weaker than the Z-fighters.

[Rocketman]

Two reasons:

1. Length of training. Videl has had what, a week or so of training in ki use? And Hercule's never consciously used it. We don't see any of the other major character at such a beginner's level - even Goku got some training from his grandpa, a world-famous martial artist (and had Saiyan physiology to fall back on) before the series started.

2. Setting. It's the Buu Saga, nobody weaker than a Super Saiyan 2 is worth jack, there's really no 'henchmen' for the weaker characters to fight, and the whole saga takes about three days anyway, then the series is over. They were never needed to be strong, so they weren't made strong.

And, maybe Videl's thing is not physical strength, maybe she's better at using her Ki. Who knows, with a proper training she could be able to shot powerful Ki blasts too !

[Humpski]

Low blow Rocketman, Shenron's native language isn't English.

[Shenron]

Erm, I didn't get this one, Rocketman, sorry. I still have to improve my english But I was meaning "shoot", and not "shot", if this is what you're talking about.

[Rocketman]

Low blow Rocketman, Shenron's native language isn't English.

I... wasn't mocking his English, 'least I didn't mean to. I just thought it was funny. Sorry.

[Humpski]

Low blow Rocketman, Shenron's native language isn't English.

I... wasn't mocking his English, 'least I didn't mean to. I just thought it was funny. Sorry.

K, as long as it wasn't intended as an insult.

[Dark Vegeta-Sama]

Really, it just seems odd that a guy like Krillin (who I love as a character but he's hardly a fine specimen physically speaking) can have a power level of tens, if not hundreds of thousands while on Namek but Videl peaks at power level 9. It's not just Videl - even "Majin" Spopovich apparently only has a power level of 14.

As has already been pointed out, there is nothing to base these power levels off of; they are guesses, and not particularly good ones at that.

I think that some level of ki control alone would give Videl and Majin Spopovich substantially higher power levels than 9 and 14. That's basically like saying that young Goku could take them on, which I really doubt, especially in the case of Spopovich who was probably given a power level that rivaled the human Z-fighters at the very least. I mean, he did shoot ki blasts, and wasn't he able to power up to an extent? His power level was well, well into the thousands.

[Kaboom]

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k85/R ... 87/2-1.png

As immensely funny as that is, no. Just no. Please, can we not have 4chan-esque humor stain this board? >_<;;