Confusion over Trunks defeating Freeza

[Teclo]

As we all know, Trunks comes from the future and defeats Freeza. He also knows he defeats Freeza and he also knows when and where Goku will arrive.

So in the same way that "originally" Goku died of the heart virus and most other people died at the hands of the androids, doesn't that mean that "originally" Freeza arrived on Earth uncontested and destroyed everything? If Goku teleported back to kill Freeza, then that would have been what happened and Trunks wouldn't know Goku would arrive three hours after he (Trunks) defeats Freeza. So that would mean that in the original instance, without Mirai Trunks turning up, Freeza destroyed everything and the android saga never happened (and Trunks was never born). Even if Goku later defeated Freeza, it wouldn't matter as Earth, and the Dragoballs, woud be gone.

It doesn't really make any sense - in the same way that Trunks' participation in the arrival of the androids was happening "for the first time", so should his arrival on Earth, his defeat of Freeza and his meeting with Goku. Yet he knows certain elements of what happens (like how he kills Freeza and Cold and when and where Goku arrives) but he doesn't know anything that happens after that - he's even surprised at how strong Goku is and that he has instant transmission - odd since that's the only way that Goku could have got to Freeza and defeated him without Trunks turning up.

[Payne222]

I honestly think Toriyama didn't remember and/or didn't care. I mean, now days he doesn't remember things that he wrote in Dragonball. So, I'm guessing it's just another plot hole.

[Akira]

That is what happened in the original timeline. Goku used Instant Transmission, became a Super Saiyan and killed Freeza and King Kold. He later died of a Heart Virus and the Androids ruined the future. That's why Trunks went back in time to save Goku so the future would have a hope. He had no idea that his being there would merely create a seperate timeline, and one where Goku would hold back because Trunks fought them instead.

That should answer your question. Trying to explain the timelines and understand everything that happened and when gets really icky and tricky, especially when you start trying to figure out Cell's time travel and involvement in everything. We've spent entire topics debating and trying to explain that stuff. Don't think too hard about it. There are several explanations, but hard to prove which is the correct explanation.

Although, it is fact that in the Timeline Trunks came from that originally Goku was meant to and did kill Freeza and Kold. As far as your question is concerned, that should answer that much of it for you.

[Casual Matt]

So I guess the short answer is "time travel screws everything up."

[Teclo]

That is what happened in the original timeline. Goku used Instant Transmission, became a Super Saiyan and killed Freeza and King Kold. He later died of a Heart Virus and the Androids ruined the future. That's why Trunks went back in time to save Goku so the future would have a hope. He had no idea that his being there would merely create a seperate timeline, and one where Goku would hold back because Trunks fought them instead.

That should answer your question. Trying to explain the timelines and understand everything that happened and when gets really icky and tricky, especially when you start trying to figure out Cell's time travel and involvement in everything. We've spent entire topics debating and trying to explain that stuff. Don't think too hard about it. There are several explanations, but hard to prove which is the correct explanation.

Although, it is fact that in the Timeline Trunks came from that originally Goku was meant to and did kill Freeza and Kold. As far as your question is concerned, that should answer that much of it for you.

Thanks for the explanation, however I did anticipate that the answer would be something to do with Goku originally killing Freeza - but Trunks didn't actually know that Goku killed Freeza. He actually gets a little concerned when Goku says "It's ok, I could have killed them by teleporting there" Trunks says "Oh no, so I've pointlessly changed history". So if Goku had originally killed Freeza and Cold, Trunks wouldn't have been saying to Freeza "I'm the one that kills you" nor would he have been surprised to hear that Goku "could have killed Freeza" nor would he have expected Goku to arrive when and where he did.

If it's a separate timeline then the Bulma that saw Mirai Trunks defeat Freeza isn't actually Mirai Trunks mother so she couldn't have told him that he is the one that defeats Freeza. His mother would be the Bulma that saw Goku teleport in out of nowhere and defeat Freeza and Cold, so that's what he would expect to happen. Sure, "our" Bulma could tell her Trunks that "he" killed Freeza but she'd actually be talking to Chibi Trunks who actually did no such thing.

I can imagine everything after the introduction of Trunks making sense (if you think really hard about it) but the events that make up the introduction of Trunks don't really fit into the rest of the Cell Saga or the notion of time travel as presented in DBZ.

[Captain Awesome]

Thanks for the explanation, however I did anticipate that the answer would be something to do with Goku originally killing Freeza - but Trunks didn't actually know that Goku killed Freeza.

My impression was Trunks didn't know Freeza even showed up, If Goku used Instantaneous movement and killed Freeza and his father, Trunks would probably grow up not knowing anything about it.

[Coola Yagami]

Hmm good point and interesting plothole.

The problem here is... Trunks knowing Goku would arrive 3 hours after Freeza was killed.

Goku said he was about to teleport there when he felt Trunks' prescence. So, Goku should have teleported out of nowhere and killed Freeza and Cold. BUT if Goku DID teleport and kill Freeza and Cold... why was he scheduled to appear 3 hours later???? Did Goku warp in, kill Freeza and Cold and then warp back to his ship, and just nap for 3 hours until he arrived... again?

[Darkprince410]

Why wouldn't he have known about their arrival on Earth? The only thing about those events that he seemed unaware of was Gokuu's Shunkan Idou, for he opted to jump in and destroy Furiiza and his father not knowing that Gokuu would have been able to use it and reach Earth in time to stop them before they did any damage.

[Professor Daravon]

It's easy enough to rationalize as another timeline discrepancy. Goku arrived on time, but Freeza arrived three hours early compared to Trunks's timeline. Goku tells Trunks that he could have used his Shunkan Idou, but he sensed Trunks's presence and so stayed in his capsule -- but that doesn't mean that's how he arrived in the original timeline. It's entirely reasonable to suppose that in Trunks's future, Goku beat Freeza to Earth. Granted, there is no hard evidence to back up this supposition; it's just a rationalization, but it fits. Other parts of the timeline have inexplicably shifted, almost something of a butterfly effect, so why not this?

[Darkprince410]

Even though Seru's presence is stated to have caused some changes to the current timeline, it's pretty obvious that the timelines didn't start noticeably diverging until Mirai Torunkusu makes his appearance. Besides, there's really no way that Seru or Torunkusu's presence would have affected when Furiiza decided to reach Earth (or if Gokuu would beat him there in his ship for that matter)

[caejones]

When did Trunks' time machine appear on Earth: Before Freeza's arrival, after, or not shown? The mere arrival of a timemachine could screw around with physics in certain ways that could affect Cold's ship; it's possible that design differences would make it affect other things differently. (Though really... just speculation...).

Have we done a topic before that tried to make sense of all the differences between the timelines? Ok, impossible, perhap... but I think it'd be fun (well, assuming we don't have another huge argument over how timelines work... XD)

[DemonKingPiccolo]

That is an interesting plot hole, one that I never noticed. If Goku in the original time line used the Shunkun Ido to teleport himself to Earth, then why would Trunks feel the need to defeat Freeza if Goku was there in the original time line?

My far-fetched theory that may explain this confusion is what if Trunks's time travel actually also altered Goku's time spent in space, and Goku never learned the Shunkun Ido in the original time line?
That would explain both his delayed arrival in the original time line and Trunks not knowing about the Shunkun Ido at all. After all, there is no evidence in the original time line that Goku even knew the Shunkun Ido.

[MajinVejitaXV]

It doesn't really make any sense - in the same way that Trunks' participation in the arrival of the androids was happening "for the first time", so should his arrival on Earth, his defeat of Freeza and his meeting with Goku. Yet he knows certain elements of what happens (like how he kills Freeza and Cold and when and where Goku arrives) but he doesn't know anything that happens after that - he's even surprised at how strong Goku is and that he has instant transmission - odd since that's the only way that Goku could have got to Freeza and defeated him without Trunks turning up.

Eh, if memory serves (I haven't read/watched DragonBall Z in awhile, I'm trying to catch up on my backlog of other shows), Trunks isn't so much surprised by Goku's strength. I can't remember the exact dialogue, but he seems more satisfied/pleased with Goku's strength than shocked. He does, however, show some shock when Goku doesn't move to defend when Trunks first attacks (the "You don't have the ki of a killer" exchange).

As for Freeza and Cold, I'm sure Goku killed them in the original timeline by using the Instantaneous Movement skill to get to Earth on time. Trunks probably only knew that Freeza came to Earth and was quickly dispatched by Goku, however when he arrived and didn't sense the ki of a Super Saiyajin he figured that it was a permutation of the timeline. Hence his shock when he found that Goku was able to have stepped in at any time (and that he had altered the timeline unnecessarily).

I love time travel stuff, it's fun. 12 Monkeys and Legacy of Kain ftw.

-Corey

[Anonymous Friend]

Maybe Goku used the Instantaneous Movement but his pod still took the three hours to get to earth. And when Trunks and Bulma were calculating everything they went by the reading on the ship because Goku arrival was so long ago and everyone who was there was dead and Bulma didn't look at couldn't remember that far back.

[Olivier Hague]

if Goku had originally killed Freeza and Cold, Trunks wouldn't have been saying to Freeza "I'm the one that kills you"

He doesn't say that, in the original.

I think he expected Gokû to defeat Freeza, but got worried when he saw Freeza arrive and still no sign of Gokû.

if Goku DID teleport and kill Freeza and Cold... why was he scheduled to appear 3 hours later????

Maybe (the original) Bulma didn't know/realize that Gokû used teleportation to get back on Earth? After all, they couldn't even see the fight, in the timeline we know of. So she only knew the time of Freeza's (and Gokû's) arrival.

Now, let's say she gave her son some kind of radar to track incoming objects and their time of arrival just so that he wouldn't miss Gokû (yeah, extrapolation, I know)... Trunks checks it, figures that Gokû won't get there in time ("whuh??") and decides he has to intervene. Then, he waits for Gokû's (new) expected time of arrival.
That would also explain why Trunks was so early...

Granted, there's some extrapolation in there, but I just tried to make the whole thing work, and I believe it does...

[Terra-jin]

Yeah, I know this plothole. It can be explained in-Universe, however.

Trunks knew that Goku would destroy Freeza and Cold. What he didn't know is that Goku learned instantaneous movement (possibly due to Goku not having to use it after killing Freeza and co.).
Now, Goku says that he sensed Trunks' power and that he chose to wait and see what happens (when things got bad, he could be there in an instant). Trunks now thinks that Goku's late, and attributes this to a time discrepancy.
Since he doesn't know of Goku's instant movement, he feels the need to intervene in order to stop Freeza. Trunks' original plan was to confront Goku just after he had won the fight - alone.

EDIT: Hmmm, that still doesn't explain why Trunks knew the time at which Goku's pod would return... and I've been beaten to it by Olivier hague.

[Rocketman]

Or, Bulma doesn't remember what time Goku arrived to fight Freeza. That was twenty years ago and she'd been through the end of the world, after all.

So, while the time machine is being set up she and/or Trunks find the old spacepod, read whatever chronometer it has, and assume that's when Goku arrived. Trunks goes back to a couple hours before that to make sure he meets Goku, then he senses Freeza but not Goku, figures something'd gone wrong with the timeline and steps in.

[russ869]

Hold on! Think about this for a second. First let me mention that I like to operate under the assumption that
1. There is only one timeline until someone travels into the past.
2. Once they arrive in the past a second timeline is created.

In Trunks's timeline Freeza obviously didn't destroy earth so he was obviously defeated by somebody. This means that from Trunks's perspective he was traveling back in time to kill someone who had already been killed. (I don't buy into the future predestination paradox because of the theory stated above.) I don't see how this can rationally make any sense. I figure Trunks was just pissed off and wasn't really thinking about it when he went to kill Freeza and it was only after the fact that he realized that he had made a unnecessary change to history.

Also, here's my thoughts on the overall story of the Cell saga. First Trunks came back to warn of the Artificial Humans (and for some odd reason killed Freeza) and left. He came back and helped defeat just Artificial Humans (this occurs in a timeline we never see), Cell never showed up this time so Trunks returned to the future and destroyed 17-18 again there (as mentioned by Cell that Trunks had already killed them when he went to absorb them), and settles down thinking the story ends there. But all the meddling Trunks did with history bites him in the ass when, somehow, as a result of it all Cell is created. He kills Trunks, takes the time machine back to before Trunks ever changed history (I'm not sure about this, see my other question below), thus creating another timeline in which both Trunks AND Cell traveled back (a sort of second chance, both for Trunks and for Cell). Cell gets his second chance to absorb 17-18, and Trunks gets a second chance to face Cell and hopefully not die. This is the timeline where everything we see in the series happens. Cell came from further in future and traveled back further in the past than Trunks so his changes overwrite Trunks's changes (but he's killed by Gohan anyway). So the thing with the Cell saga is that you have to remember that everything that's happening already happened once, but now it's happening differently because Cell entered the picture.


I also had a few questions to add:

1. Did even Cell exist in Trunks's timeline originally or was he the result of random changes made during Trunk's first trip to warn about the Jinzo-ningen

We know the Artificial Humans 19-20 didn't exist before Trunks traveled back. And if originally Gero was killed instantly when he turned on 17-18 doesn't that mean he wouldn't have finished Cell? Since we're now dealing with multiple people traveling to the past from different points in the future we have to dissect them one by one.


2. When did Cell's time machine arrive in the past?

Was it before Trunks's first time jump or in between his first and second jump?

[Lol]

2. When did Cell's time machine arrive in the past?

Was it before Trunks's first time jump or in between his first and second jump?

It was before, I think Cell's machine had been there for four years (He came one year before Trunks made his appearence).
So, yeah, as Trunks himself says, the past could be so different because of Cell's interference, making all this trouble we see in timelines.

As for the thoughts of Freeza's killer, russ869 said everything that I think.

1. Did even Cell exist in Trunks's timeline originally or was he the result of random changes made during Trunk's first trip to warn about the Jinzo-ningen

I don't think that he was a random change, because in the three main timelines we see Cell. In the main one he is just killed (The embrionary). There is the one who kills a Trunks and gets owned by Gohan (In the Main Timeline), and there is the last one we see, the one who Trunks kills.

[Teclo]

Or, Bulma doesn't remember what time Goku arrived to fight Freeza. That was twenty years ago and she'd been through the end of the world, after all.

So, while the time machine is being set up she and/or Trunks find the old spacepod, read whatever chronometer it has, and assume that's when Goku arrived. Trunks goes back to a couple hours before that to make sure he meets Goku, then he senses Freeza but not Goku, figures something'd gone wrong with the timeline and steps in.

Why would Trunks figure something had gone wrong with the timeline if Goku wasn't due for another 3 hours anyway? Accoring to him, Goku not being there is totally consistent with the timeline.

In the original run through events, without Trunks showing up, Goku would have teleported in and killed Freeza. Bulma would have noticed this and later would have told Trunks. There would be no mention of Goku turning up 3 hours after Freeza was killed because originally Goku had turned up just before Freeza was killed (since he was the one that killed him). Therefore Trunks would not have thought that he is the one that defeats Freeza, he would have thought/known that it was Goku.

So that can only lead in one direction since Trunks already spoke like he knew that he was the one that defeated Freeza and knew where and when Goku arrives. It must mean that there was no "original run of events" that occurred without Mirai Trunks showing up. He'd always shown up at that point, killed Freeza and consequently Goku hadn't teleported in and had arrived 3 hours later. So if Trunks had always shown up then everything that happened after Trunks' arrival had always happened - therefore he wasn't correcting the past he was just repeating the past. What happened with Gohan defeating Cell is always what happened and Trunks' nightmare future could never actually occur.