DragonBall Z Abridged

[Scsigs]

Tonight We Dine In HFIL | HFIL Episode 10
https://youtu.be/yXSRRLpPxbY?si=5FngStHbI2e3jZiw

LANI PLAYING BOJACK! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

Although, Chris Guerrero got replaced as Cooler, unfortunately. Though, the new guy does a pretty good job. Also, I never knew Ben got replaced as King Cold. The other, older newer guy does a pretty good job for him too.

Also, does this take place in prime DBZA continuity, or the movies/special continuity? I'm confused.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Supposed to take place in prime DBZA, though some of the movies definitely seem to have taken place.

[Scsigs]

Supposed to take place in prime DBZA, though some of the movies definitely seem to have taken place.

I mean, sure, but they've gone out of their way to say that all of the movies take place in an alternate universe from the main show to solve the continuity problems most of them have.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well looks like that's no longer a case.

Borrowing a page from Toriyama with the retcons, there!

Also, I feel like Frog-Ginyu being there could've prevented Recoome from burning everything down.

[Scsigs]

Dragonball Z Abridged Creator Commentary | Episode 60 (Part 2)
https://youtu.be/vzqwshV0ktI?si=7nENbtHxSDU8Su_3

Yu Yu Hakusho Abridged Movie Commentary | Part 3
https://youtu.be/MfAyV01Bbas?si=TirH3bTIcAmEyPQ7

[coola]

Seeing Gohan giving Goku piece of his mind was so satisfying, maybe if someone did that in actual show, he wouldn't act like that with Buu, Freeza or Granolah...

[Scsigs]

Seeing Gohan giving Goku piece of his mind was so satisfying, maybe if someone did that in actual show, he wouldn't act like that with Buu, Freeza or Granolah...

Now that I think about it, another good reason they haven't done Buu outside of the bits is probably because Goku stating he wanted to give Trunks & Goten a chance to fight Buu while fused undermines his character arc's conclusion at the end of the Cell Saga.

[dragonballhero]

It just occurred to me... if Babidi ends up in HFIL, do you think there'll be any discussion with Cell regarding the idea that his (father's) creation "killed" Gohan, and for that matter, do you all think that, unlike Frieza with Goku and Future Trunks, Cell will just be relieved that SOMEONE "put that little smartass" in his place?

For that matter, will Cell ever be aware that Kid Buu actually DOES end up killing Gohan eventually?

[Scsigs]

It just occurred to me... if Babidi ends up in HFIL, do you think there'll be any discussion with Cell regarding the idea that his (father's) creation "killed" Gohan, and for that matter, do you all think that, unlike Frieza with Goku and Future Trunks, Cell will just be relieved that SOMEONE "put that little smartass" in his place?

For that matter, will Cell ever be aware that Kid Buu actually DOES end up killing Gohan eventually?

Depends on where they'd wanna take the comedy. Either would be funny if played right. Either play up Cell's ego & have him be a bitch about it, or subvert expectations after a build-up & have him at least happy someone finally did it. I think playing Cell the latter way would be way funnier than the former, especially if it's set years later & Cell's over it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I wonder if the villains will all repent by the time Pure Buu comes around as would be canon, or if they'll still be walking around ala Toei's original idea of Hell.

[kemuri07]

Seeing Gohan giving Goku piece of his mind was so satisfying, maybe if someone did that in actual show, he wouldn't act like that with Buu, Freeza or Granolah...

Now that I think about it, another good reason they haven't done Buu outside of the bits is probably because Goku stating he wanted to give Trunks & Goten a chance to fight Buu while fused undermines his character arc's conclusion at the end of the Cell Saga.

No..it doesn't? This ignores a big, big load of context in that by this time, Gotenks was the only being powerful enough to at least confront Buu. Vegeta unalived himself, Gohan was thought to have been killed, and Goku himself literally only had moments before he had to go back to the spirit world. Goten and Trunks is a last ditch effort and it's very much treated as Goku not really having any choice in the matter.

Look, I like DBZA a lot. It's a damn well made parody show...but it's just that--a parody. I think people make the mistake of using DBZA as a critical lens for the series, and people have this tendency to mix up the context of the DBZ with DBZ abridged. I get it, but it's wrong.

[coola]

Seeing Gohan giving Goku piece of his mind was so satisfying, maybe if someone did that in actual show, he wouldn't act like that with Buu, Freeza or Granolah...

Now that I think about it, another good reason they haven't done Buu outside of the bits is probably because Goku stating he wanted to give Trunks & Goten a chance to fight Buu while fused undermines his character arc's conclusion at the end of the Cell Saga.

No..it doesn't? This ignores a big, big load of context in that by this time, Gotenks was the only being powerful enough to at least confront Buu. Vegeta unalived himself, Gohan was thought to have been killed, and Goku himself literally only had moments before he had to go back to the spirit world. Goten and Trunks is a last ditch effort and it's very much treated as Goku not really having any choice in the matter.

You forgot most important thing, Buu himself wouldn't be free, if Goku didn't decide to humor princess Vegeta ego, and he later adimt he could beat Buu as SSJ3, but he wanted "Goten and Trunks to prove themselves" aka "Fix mess me and Vegeta made"

[Scsigs]

Now that I think about it, another good reason they haven't done Buu outside of the bits is probably because Goku stating he wanted to give Trunks & Goten a chance to fight Buu while fused undermines his character arc's conclusion at the end of the Cell Saga.

No..it doesn't? This ignores a big, big load of context in that by this time, Gotenks was the only being powerful enough to at least confront Buu. Vegeta unalived himself, Gohan was thought to have been killed, and Goku himself literally only had moments before he had to go back to the spirit world. Goten and Trunks is a last ditch effort and it's very much treated as Goku not really having any choice in the matter.

Look, I like DBZA a lot. It's a damn well made parody show...but it's just that--a parody. I think people make the mistake of using DBZA as a critical lens for the series, and people have this tendency to mix up the context of the DBZ with DBZ abridged. I get it, but it's wrong.

Ok, a few things here.
1. You're forgetting the timeline of events of the Buu Saga. Goku fought Buu in SS3 form. It was initially shown to be a distraction so Trunks could get the Dragon Radar so they could get the Dragon Balls to bring back all of Buu's victims after they defeated Buu & Babidi. After this, Goku teaches Goten & Trunks the Fusion technique because he knows he doesn't have a ton of time left on Earth & he knew he needed to pass it down to them quickly due to the time limits on Baba bringing him back for a day. Goku never saw Gotenks until AFTER he went back to Other World & saw him through the Old Kai's crystal ball when Gotenks was in SS3 form fighting Super Buu on the Lookout. The initial reason is what you stated; Goten & Trunks were their best shot at defeating Buu.
After this, Goku later says that he could've beaten Buu in SS3 form when he fought Fat Buu, but. wanted to give Goten & Trunks the chance to do it themselves. Why Toriyama put that line of dialogue in. there, I don't know, but he did. This entirely undermines Goku's character arc from the end of the Android Arc where it seemed the intended lesson he was supposed to learn was, "Be proactive & don't fuck up when a powerful villain you need to beat comes along." Goku died as a result of not stopping Dr. Gero before he completed the androids. He died as the result of wanting to push Gohan passed his limits & having him fight Cell. Goku acknowledged that. The Buu Saga completely undermines it by having him forget that.

2. I wasn't talking about Abridged. I was talking about the original source material, you fucking ignoramus. All Abridged did was put these things more in focus with how they rewrote things for the dialogue. And, I know it's a parody. On top of that, it's not perfect. There are a ton of problems. Some plot holes here & there, Gohan's character arc not being properly concluded, the forced in message about pacifism that relies on previous characterization of Gohan that doesn't exist beforehand in either the source material or Abridged, leading to inconsistent characterization & undermines what they were going for, Gohan hating Goku being incredibly forced, etc. But, that's not what I was referring to. And, let's just make this clear for you. Goku's character arc in the Android Arc is basically the same between the source material & Abridged. Abridged just remixes a few things & makes others more overt to fit their versions of the characters & story. Otherwise, it's mostly the same. But, yeah, I was referring to the source material, not Abridged.

You forgot most important thing, Buu himself wouldn't be free, if Goku didn't decide to humor princess Vegeta ego, and he later admit he could beat Buu as SSJ3, but he wanted "Goten and Trunks to prove themselves" aka "Fix mess me and Vegeta made"

THANK YOU!

[Scsigs]

Dragonball Z Abridged Creator Commentary | Episode 60 (Part 3)
https://youtu.be/r3nSeMJHJ0w?si=3R5_AXSe161peEbs

Yu Yu Hakusho Abridged Movie Commentary | Part 4
https://youtu.be/jgucNOcXGcg?si=v6BJwyGE23SlXrb-

[FoolsGil]

Been one hell of a ride. the first time, and then the time with commentary. Scott if you're reading this, thank you, as well as Taka, Lani, and every member and associate of TFS, past and present, for the laughs.

[coola]

Hearing them singing My Way got me teared up too, such wholesome moment. And seeing what JR/AVGN become, I'm glad you didn't sold out and forced yourself to make more DBZ Abridged, it was perfect finale.

[kemuri07]

Now that I think about it, another good reason they haven't done Buu outside of the bits is probably because Goku stating he wanted to give Trunks & Goten a chance to fight Buu while fused undermines his character arc's conclusion at the end of the Cell Saga.

No..it doesn't? This ignores a big, big load of context in that by this time, Gotenks was the only being powerful enough to at least confront Buu. Vegeta unalived himself, Gohan was thought to have been killed, and Goku himself literally only had moments before he had to go back to the spirit world. Goten and Trunks is a last ditch effort and it's very much treated as Goku not really having any choice in the matter.

Look, I like DBZA a lot. It's a damn well made parody show...but it's just that--a parody. I think people make the mistake of using DBZA as a critical lens for the series, and people have this tendency to mix up the context of the DBZ with DBZ abridged. I get it, but it's wrong.

Ok, a few things here.
1. You're forgetting the timeline of events of the Buu Saga. Goku fought Buu in SS3 form. It was initially shown to be a distraction so Trunks could get the Dragon Radar so they could get the Dragon Balls to bring back all of Buu's victims after they defeated Buu & Babidi. After this, Goku teaches Goten & Trunks the Fusion technique because he knows he doesn't have a ton of time left on Earth & he knew he needed to pass it down to them quickly due to the time limits on Baba bringing him back for a day. Goku never saw Gotenks until AFTER he went back to Other World & saw him through the Old Kai's crystal ball when Gotenks was in SS3 form fighting Super Buu on the Lookout. The initial reason is what you stated; Goten & Trunks were their best shot at defeating Buu.
After this, Goku later says that he could've beaten Buu in SS3 form when he fought Fat Buu, but. wanted to give Goten & Trunks the chance to do it themselves. Why Toriyama put that line of dialogue in. there, I don't know, but he did. This entirely undermines Goku's character arc from the end of the Android Arc where it seemed the intended lesson he was supposed to learn was, "Be proactive & don't fuck up when a powerful villain you need to beat comes along." Goku died as a result of not stopping Dr. Gero before he completed the androids. He died as the result of wanting to push Gohan passed his limits & having him fight Cell. Goku acknowledged that. The Buu Saga completely undermines it by having him forget that.

2. I wasn't talking about Abridged. I was talking about the original source material, you fucking ignoramus. All Abridged did was put these things more in focus with how they rewrote things for the dialogue. And, I know it's a parody. On top of that, it's not perfect. There are a ton of problems. Some plot holes here & there, Gohan's character arc not being properly concluded, the forced in message about pacifism that relies on previous characterization of Gohan that doesn't exist beforehand in either the source material or Abridged, leading to inconsistent characterization & undermines what they were going for, Gohan hating Goku being incredibly forced, etc. But, that's not what I was referring to. And, let's just make this clear for you. Goku's character arc in the Android Arc is basically the same between the source material & Abridged. Abridged just remixes a few things & makes others more overt to fit their versions of the characters & story. Otherwise, it's mostly the same. But, yeah, I was referring to the source material, not Abridged.

You forgot most important thing, Buu himself wouldn't be free, if Goku didn't decide to humor princess Vegeta ego, and he later admit he could beat Buu as SSJ3, but he wanted "Goten and Trunks to prove themselves" aka "Fix mess me and Vegeta made"

THANK YOU!

1. Calm down

2. Because again, you’re missing some much needed context that clarifies Goku’s decision. 1. He doesn’t say he could beat Buu, he specifically says that he’s not sure he can even when pressed by Piccolo. 2. He’s leaving Goten and Trunks both because he literally does not have time, but specifically because he knows he can’t always be around and he’spassing the torch to the next generation. That’s a far cry from whatever lesson he was supposed to have learned in the cell saga. That context is important. More importantly what you’re describing is Goku’s arc in abridge. That is not his arc in the series, nor is that the context of the cell saga in general.

[Scsigs]

1. Calm down

2. Because again, you’re missing some much needed context that clarifies Goku’s decision. 1. He doesn’t say he could beat Buu, he specifically says that he’s not sure he can even when pressed by Piccolo. 2. He’s leaving Goten and Trunks both because he literally does not have time, but specifically because he knows he can’t always be around and he’spassing the torch to the next generation. That’s a far cry from whatever lesson he was supposed to have learned in the cell saga. That context is important. More importantly what you’re describing is Goku’s arc in abridge. That is not his arc in the series, nor is that the context of the cell saga in general.

If I'm missing any context, you're also missing some, as well as assuming a lot about how I think about this. As I tried to say, I can separate the source material from Abridged. Why is that so hard to grasp?
I'm not saying it's Goku's character arc for the series. In fact, I don't think Goku has a character arc throughout most of Dragon Ball. He's the main character, but he doesn't change a ton across it, he's just along for the ride & takes on all challengers. However, if you're telling me that what Goku's character arc was in Abridged isn't in the source material to any extent, you have a stunning lack of media literacy. The Android Arc, from the beginning of having Freeza go to Earth to kill Goku & co as revenge for what happened on Namek with his father & more foot soldiers, to Goku refusing to be proactive & stopping Dr. Gero despite knowing his name & them having the Dragon Balls so they can summon Shenron to find his location (which the series itself drew attention to), to Goku training Gohan to get stronger & fight Cell to Gohan failing to capitalize on his power-up to SS2 & forcing Cell into a corner so bad that he sets himself up to explode to take himself & everyone out, to Goku sacrificing himself, staying dead to let the Earth exist in peace & let everyone else solve the problems in the future, & accepting responsibility for Cell (as well as the other villains of the story, whether he was the cause of them appearing or not), the arc has a character arc for Goku stepping up in maturity after making really stupid, selfish decisions the last 3 arcs (letting Piccolo, Vegeta, & Freeza live after they proved how killing them would've been better for everyone because there was no telling if they'd become good & Freeza is never gonna be a good guy, as Dragon Ball Super showed, even when he's forced to work alongside the heroes). Goku's arc is learning that his decisions, while personally satisfying for him, were extremely selfish & stupid when made for those reasons. It's a pretty effective, tragic end to Goku's time in the story & a good lesson to leave on the readers. TFS just rewrote parts of it to make that more overt or obvious in Abridged, like I just told you. Toriyama's said in some interviews how Goku had a "poison" to his character where he did more selfish things, so this must've been intentional, even if it flounders at points. Otherwise, why would these things be there?

And, like I just told you as well, the initial reason Goku gives is that he doesn't have a ton of time on Earth, so he teaches Goten & Trunks the Fusion Dance so they can fuse & get so powerful that they can beat Buu. However, it's later stated that he also wanted to give Goten & Trunks a turn at beating Buu & that he could've beaten Buu himself in SS3 form back when he fought the fat Buu. If the lesson Goku learned at the end of the previous arc was supposed to teach him to be proactive & stop making stupid decisions (which it seemed to be), it certainly didn't stick over the 7-year timeskip between arcs. It thus undermines the lesson from the previous arc. There is absolutely no reason for Goku to leave it up to them & just not kill Buu if the lesson stuck with him. The fact that Goku chastises himself for not defeating Buu when he could've earlier on in the arc only signifies this.

Now, I have 0 problems with Goku training Goten & Trunks in Fusion & trying to set up a future solution to the current problem. That makes sense & carries on from the previous character arc well, as well as having no narrative problems because Buu is stronger than him (or at least has a LOT of durability & a good healing factor that makes him able to last longer) & Fusion is promised to create an even stronger warrior who can take Buu down. The problem is Goku stating he could've done it later on. It's dumb & undermines it. If he could've done it, he should've, then taught Goten & Trunks fusion for any future emergencies & anything else they could be taught. What is the point of not defeating Buu & then teaching them things they could or should know afterwards if he was strong enough to do so & should know better than to not? Logically, it makes no sense, undermines the lesson Goku learned at the end of the previous story arc, & contributes to the problems with the arc as a whole where there's somme inconsistent characterization at points & a lot of the plot points are forced along longer than they need to be artificially.

[Dbzfan94]

Goku didn’t “learn a lesson” in my eyes. He just said “yeah all of these guys were coming after me, so if I stay dead then they’ll stop.” That’s it.

And yeah, Goku said he maybe could have beaten Fat Buu, but we really don’t know for 100% sure because he’s making an assumption. Was Buu going all out against him during that fight? We don’t really know, but we know Goku wasn’t either. We’ve seen Buu have insane regeneration hax so even someone stronger than him could’ve had a hard time destroying him.

[Lukmendes]

Goku didn’t “learn a lesson” in my eyes. He just said “yeah all of these guys were coming after me, so if I stay dead then they’ll stop.” That’s it.

And yeah, Goku said he maybe could have beaten Fat Buu, but we really don’t know for 100% sure because he’s making an assumption. Was Buu going all out against him during that fight? We don’t really know, but we know Goku wasn’t either. We’ve seen Buu have insane regeneration hax so even someone stronger than him could’ve had a hard time destroying him.

Goku was honestly being a cocky dumbass when he said he could defeat fat Buu.

While the way the fight plays makes it clear that both Goku and Buu are just fucking around, Goku clearly got tired just after a few seconds of fighting him, while Buu could keep going.

Futhermore, when Goku was fighting kid Buu, he was seriously surprised over how long Buu can keep fighting without getting tired, which's stupid considering that by that point he saw super Buu fighting Gotenks, Gohan, and he technically fought super Buu as Vegetto too...

So yeah, Goku can usually be alright at measuring up his opponents' power (Back in Cell saga he quickly started to believe he couldn't beat Cell after just looking at him), but that comment from later in Buu saga makes him look like a dumbass who somehow didn't notice just how much it's impossible to tire out Buu.

The best way I can think Goku could defeat Buu is if he just decided to go SS3 right away and throw the most powerful kamehameha at him, something Goku never does since he likes to delay fights even when he should end them fast, so I don't see Goku defeating Buu at all.

Also if you think of Goku's actions with the many retcons around it, Goku is uncharacteristically a liar, since he talks like he'll overwhelm Vegeta with SS2 to end it quick, and even looks surprised and annoyed when Vegeta turns out to have SS2 as well, then he talks like he couldn't do anything about Buu, then right after reveals SS3, but later says he wasn't sure he could beat Buu even with SS3, then after te whole Vegetto nonsense is over, he suddenly starts saying he could've beaten fat Buu... It's just so bad and it makes him look like a jackass.