Herms' Guide Guide (Collection of Information Awesomeness)

[dbgtFO]

In your strength checker, I found this mistake:

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P5.2
Freeza: “Nobody can survive where there’s no planet…Except for Freeza…”

Freeza didn't say that, Lord Kaio did.
Also I want to get this quote clarified if possible:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”

When Goku says "returned to normal" does he mean Gotenks is no longer SSJ 3 or that the boys have defused? In both Viz and the danish translation he says defused.

[dbgtFO]

OMG double post!!
So in your strength checker, how about including this quote:
"And he figures Freeza's pride has been damaged enough, the fact that he's been surpassed, and by a Saiyan, no less."
http://www.kanzentai.com/chp.php?id=325
I think it's relevant, since it directly states, Goku surpassed Freeza.

[Sanity's_Theif]

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”

This may be off-topic, but, doesn't this quote imply Goku can fight Super Buu too?

[dbgtFO]

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”

This may be off-topic, but, doesn't this quote imply Goku can fight Super Buu too?

Not exactly.
When Goku says "Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own", he's referring to the fact that Gohan doesn't have to fuse with Goku to win anymore.

[Sanity's_Theif]

Not exactly.
When Goku says "Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own", he's referring to the fact that Gohan doesn't have to fuse with Goku to win anymore.

But then that doesn't make sense why he's disappointed, as I recall, he didn't like the idea of being permanently fused with his son.

Not like I care that much, just saying.

[dbgtFO]

Not exactly.
When Goku says "Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own", he's referring to the fact that Gohan doesn't have to fuse with Goku to win anymore.

But then that doesn't make sense why he's disappointed, as I recall, he didn't like the idea of being permanently fused with his son.

Initially, yeah, but when confronted by Buu it was pretty clear he preferred it over getting instantly killed. In context Goku is disappointed because he doesn't have to fuse to fight Buu, since Gohan can now take care of things without it. That's really all there is to it and since we know what came later, it's doubtful Toriyama was trying to tell us Piccolo-Buu < Goku.

Not like I care that much, just saying.

It's cool.
Though we should probably take it to PMs, if you still got something to say.
As for a little on-topicness,

Herms' 7000th post is coming up! Could it be that he's planning a new guide?

[dbgtFO]

In your A Stronger Loving Time-line thread the following quote appears:

May 8th: Since being freed the day before, Majin Boo has already destroyed 80% of the world’s cities and population. In the Kaioshin Realm, the Elder Kaioshin is released from being sealed in the Z Sword, and begins the 25-hour ritual to draw out Gohan’s power. Mister Satan is sent to defeat Boo, but starts to befriend him instead. Goten and Trunks perfect Fusion, and Gotenks is born, but he is not yet a match for Boo.

Majin Buu having destroyed 80% of the population is only a fact after Gotenks' first appearance. Before the Elder Kaioshin is released Buu has "only" destroyed 2/3 of Earth's population, not 80%.

[DBZ_1997]

Lots of great stuff as usual! Loved reading through all of that

[Brodes_Vegetto]

Great selection! I've spent my first few days working through this info. Looking forward to your future work.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Awsome collection! The best section of any Dragon Ball site! Thanks for all the hard work Herms.

[DNA]

Hey there, about the name pun guide, will it be updated? There are some things in later posts not added in the main one, there's also new characters. What about important game characters? And Neko Majin Z characters? Maybe move this guide to the Kanzentai website?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Hey there, about the name pun guide, will it be updated? There are some things in later posts not added in the main one, there's also new characters. What about important game characters? And Neko Majin Z characters? Maybe move this guide to the Kanzentai website?

Also, perhaps there could be an inclusion of characters where there's been no official word on whether or not they have a name pun, and if so, what it is. And then you (Herms) could have a bit telling about what suggestions fans have had for the name puns of characters without any official word on the matter. E.g. Spopovich and Yamu; the latter having had "yam" suggested for his name pun (although, in the thread that I made, you said that you thought it seems kind of weird for a non-Saiyan character to be named after a vegetable).

[DNA]

I was going to mention that, actually. What I'm really personally interested in is the best way to spell the names, like that Sauza/Sauzer/Thouser deal. And I take this list as my guide for that. I've been working on my own in universe guide and these lists help me a lot. (Don't worry, everyone will be credited and links will be made.)

[Pieter]

Great guides! I read your guides on saiyan history and I've come to somewhat different conclusions regarding their planet. I'll share with you:

I'd say we can consider Toriyama's note canon, just like how his comments about the Afterlife can be considered canon. It doesn't appear that the note was made for any side-story. He doesn't introduce recent history, but 'ancient' Saiyan history, since he speaks of "The Saiyans of long ago" and the houses which "ancient Saiyans lived in". In the note he says that "The other race [Saiyan] has an unusually small population", which matches Raditz's description of the Saiyans: "The Saiyans were a scarce race even from the start". The note also has a picture drawn of the Ancient Saiyan dwellings on the planet. The planet has two moons. The planet is very likely the same as the Saiyan planet destroyed by Freeza, since it notes how the planet has heavy gravity, just like how Kaio describes the planet 'where the Saiyans were'. Judging from this, the Saiyans lived on planet Vegeta / Plant since ancient times.

Toriyama introduced 'Raditz', and 'Kakarot', both born on planet 'Vegeta'. Their names are a pun on vegetables, and their planet is a pun on vegetable itself. Yet in the note Toriyama introduces the 'Tsufruians', and calls the planet 'Plant' (either because he forgot how he named the planet 'Vegeta' earlier on, or because the planet has two names) . It seems likely that Toriyama introduced the Tsufruians to explain the high-tech devices the Saiyans carry. After all according to Toriyama's note on the Saiyans "every one of them seems to be a warrior." The name of the Tsufruians is a pun on Fruit. So we have two races, one named after vegetables and the other named after fruits, both living on planet Plant. Since both fruits and vegetables are plants, it seems that the planet was named after both races. That means that both races may have been native to this planet and perhaps related to each other (like humans vs neanderthalers), which helps explain how Saiyans "since ancient times [] attack numerous planets to build up wealth and goods"; with the help of Tsufruian spaceships.

Toriyama's description of Saiyans takes a turn though, because according to his notes the Saibaimen were "artificially created by Saiyan scientist(s) using bio-technology." This means that Saiyan scientists did exist (assuming it was more than one), and that not every single Saiyan was a warrior (unless the scientists were also warriors). The Saiyan scientists must have lived on the Saiyan planet, since only four Saiyans survived the planet's destruction. So they were either educated by the Tsufruian's (likely), Freeza's scientists who migrated to their planet (far-fedged) or developed their skills on their own (doesn't seem to fit Saiyan nature).

So what happened to the Tsufruian's? Looking at Toriyama's etymology he liked to name races subordinate to Freeza after products that fit inside a fridge (Freeza). We don't know if Toriyama had already made up Freeza when he wrote about the Tsufruian (do we?). But later a lot of Freeza's henchmen were named after Fruits, just like the Tsufruian's. So perhaps the Tsufruian were a race working for Freeza? It explains why Freeza has Tsufruian technology like the scouter. Perhaps the destruction of planet Plant / Vegeta didn't just cause the genocide of Saiyans, but also the Tsufruian's who were the majority of the planet's population. The Tsufruian's had worked together with the Saiyans since ancient times, supporting space-piracy, and along with the Saiyans were employed by Freeza who made use of their planet's warrior's and technology.

In addition to my last paragraph? Could you perhaps provide the full translation of Toriyama's answer to "how many planets Freeza and co. had"? (from the Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume). Because I'm not getting if "Freeza and co. ruled them by force, as big kingpins." is about Freeza ruling conquered planets by force or about Freeza ruling the Saiyans by force?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Toriyama's description of Saiyans takes a turn though, because according to his notes the Saibaimen were "artificially created by Saiyan scientist(s) using bio-technology." This means that Saiyan scientists did exist (assuming it was more than one), and that not every single Saiyan was a warrior (unless the scientists were also warriors).

The Saiyan scientists must have lived on the Saiyan planet, since only four Saiyans survived the planet's destruction.

Yeah, there's no real reason why you can't reconcile "all Saiyans were warriors" with "there were Saiyan scientists" by just saying that a number of them were both warriors and scientists.

And, as we saw in the Bardock special, Freeza sent out a gang of henchmen to kill Bardock's team. Judging by this, he could've sent out gangs of henchmen (as I like to call them, "Super Saiyan Execution Squads") to go and kill all Saiyans before ordering all remaining but four of them to be on Vegeta at the same time (maybe a "return to base" order) and then nuke the planet. I know that not everyone thinks that the Bardock special is manga canon, but many do because Toriyama liked it so much that he actually included Bardock as a character in the manga, in a panel that mirrors the scene where he confronts and is ultimately killed by Freeza.

[dbgtFO]

I know that not everyone thinks that the Bardock special is manga canon, but many do because Toriyama liked it so much that he actually included Bardock as a character in the manga, in a panel that mirrors the scene where he confronts and is ultimately killed by Freeza.

In my case it's not just that. It's also Daizenshuu 6's section for the Bardock special that said this:

A story that is unfolded in the timeframes of both the original work and the TV series.

Sounds to me like the closest we can come to a "canon" statement concerning the special.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I know that not everyone thinks that the Bardock special is manga canon, but many do because Toriyama liked it so much that he actually included Bardock as a character in the manga, in a panel that mirrors the scene where he confronts and is ultimately killed by Freeza.

In my case it's not just that. It's also Daizenshuu 6's section for the Bardock special that said this:

A story that is unfolded in the timeframes of both the original work and the TV series.

Sounds to me like the closest we can come to a "canon" statement concerning the special.

Oh, I never knew about that line. Then that, too.

[DNA]

Dudes, everything is canon, just different continuities. There's the manga continuity and the anime continuity, among others.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Dudes, everything is canon, just different continuities. There's the manga continuity and the anime continuity, among others.

That's why I said "manga canon". The Bardock special can fit into both canons, and that Daizenshuu 6 quote supports it. Normally, when people mention "canon", they're talking about the manga, as it's pretty much wholly accepted as the primary source for accurate information in debates and whatnot, being that it's the original work.

[Pieter]

Dudes, everything is canon, just different continuities. There's the manga continuity and the anime continuity, among others.

That's why I said "manga canon". The Bardock special can fit into both canons, and that Daizenshuu 6 quote supports it. Normally, when people mention "canon", they're talking about the manga, as it's pretty much wholly accepted as the primary source for accurate information in debates and whatnot, being that it's the original work.

Well you can debate over how much the Bardock special fits in the Toriyama-canon. He included Bardock in the Manga, so Bardock is certainly canon. But does that mean the entire Bardock special is part of the manga canon? I don't think so, it only is to some degree.

When Toriyama was asked how he came up with Bardock's name he said the following "I don’t really remember this. Did he even appear in the original story [i.e. the manga]? If he was in the original story, then his name was definitely taken from a vegetable." Toriyama forgot he included Bardock, but he was right that it wasn't him who made up the name (his assistent did). That doesn't mean Bardock isn't canon, since obviously he appears in the Manga. More importantly Toriyama differentiates between the Bardock TV special and the "original story".

There's also at least one mistake in the Bardock special. As is explained in the manga, Goku was a really agressive and unfriendly kid when he was found by Gohan. Yet at the end of the Bardock special Goku appears extremely friendly and happy when he's found by Gohan, directly contradicting the Manga.