Fact Checker (update: Ep.51)

[Herms]

Updated for episode 18.

[FortuneSSJ]

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

This part was interesting. Seems like that new fansub group is good and they release in 480p too, so its perfect for me.
Thanks for the hardwork.

[LightBing]

Updated for episode 18.

Thank you, as always much appreciated.

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

This part was interesting. Seems like that fansub group is good and they release in 480p too, so its perfect for me.

This kinda reinforces the idea that base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. Apparently they only upgrade/trained Super Saiyan, disregarding base.
It's nice to get some explanations.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

==Episode 18==
Minute: 14
Context: Goku and Vegeta attempt to lift the weights Whis provides for them.
Goku: "Huh? I can't lift it! It's too heavy..."
Vegeta: "You're too soft, Kakarrot. There's a trick to lifting these up. Watch."
Vegeta: "...What the?!"
Whis: "Vegeta-san, I made yours twice as heavy as before."

Significance: This supports Goku's earlier statement that Vegeta might be stronger than him.

Does this really count as evidence to support Vegeta being stronger than Goku? I mean, I'm not arguing that statement, but I'm curious if I'm missing something prior to the translation. Because I didn't really interpret this exchange that way, just that, prior to this training session, Vegeta's weight was only half as heavy. But does that necessarily mean that his current weight is heavier than Goku's?

[Gozar]

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

Significance:
Whis' explanation reaffirms Toriyama's statement made in Saikyō Jump's June 2014 issue, quoted below:

Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!
Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

I find this scene to be the most intriguing. Confirmation as to what Toriyama suggested a few years ago raises the possibility that SSJ2 and SSJ3 aren't too much different from the "in-between" Forms that Vegeta and Trunks take on against Cell. Which now begs a similar question to the Grade 2 and Grade 3 forms. If Goku and Vegeta do in fact master their Base and SSJ forms, while they may consume less Ki and also be better to fight in for the long term, is there a possibility to upgrade to SJ2 or SSJ3 for a quick burst of power and added Ki if needed. Perhaps when their back is against the wall and they're left with no other alternative.

Personally, I've always considered this to be an unexplored avenue during the Cell Games. To me, Goku's intent was to always have Gohan to take the reins even if there was a chance that he could have gotten stronger via another quick transformation or a Kaio-ken.

[sintzu]

It looks like the ritual Goku did was nothing more then a shortcut to reach Ssjg while the training Vegeta did was the long way to it.

What I want to know is why did Vegeta get as strong as he did,was it due to him being a Saiyan or Whis' training method ? cause if it was the training then the other characters such as Piccolo could probably get a huge boost by training with him.

[SansrivaaL]

==Episode 18==
Minute: 14
Context: Goku and Vegeta attempt to lift the weights Whis provides for them.
Goku: "Huh? I can't lift it! It's too heavy..."
Vegeta: "You're too soft, Kakarrot. There's a trick to lifting these up. Watch."
Vegeta: "...What the?!"
Whis: "Vegeta-san, I made yours twice as heavy as before."

Significance: This supports Goku's earlier statement that Vegeta might be stronger than him.

Does this really count as evidence to support Vegeta being stronger than Goku? I mean, I'm not arguing that statement, but I'm curious if I'm missing something prior to the translation. Because I didn't really interpret this exchange that way, just that, prior to this training session, Vegeta's weight was only half as heavy. But does that necessarily mean that his current weight is heavier than Goku's?

Got that vibe as well, Whis didnt exactly say that he only made Vegeta's heavier.

[buutenks]

Whis simply says i made your twice as heavy as before,aka twice as heavy as the last time u lifted it,not twice as heavy as goku's.

So nope has no connection.

its possible vegeta is stronger than goku,but even if not by a huge deal considering both of them got koed or seriously wrecked by beerus' ki blast.

[Herms]

Alright, so I revised the entry on the "weight" scene in light of everyone's comments. Thanks for the feedback!

[Herms]

Updated for episode 19.

[Sodhi]

Updated for episode 19.

Thank you sir

[xmysticgohanx]

Updated for episode 18.

Thank you, as always much appreciated.

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

This part was interesting. Seems like that fansub group is good and they release in 480p too, so its perfect for me.

This kinda reinforces the idea that base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. Apparently they only upgrade/trained Super Saiyan, disregarding base.
It's nice to get some explanations.

No, it doesn't. All it's saying is that keeping them in base makes the gap between them and Beerus seem a lot bigger. It's so they can train harder.

[LightBing]

No, it doesn't. All it's saying is that keeping them in base makes the gap between them and Beerus seem a lot bigger. It's so they can train harder.

I extrapolated what I said from the info given. Train in base and not in Super Saiyan, if not they won't get much stronger.
Given that until now in Super, God level was something Goku couldn't even imagine or reach by himself. It appears training in Super Saiyan and acquiring new forms puts a ceiling on the warriors. I think it reinforces the Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza, because after achieving SSJ, the characters never again trained their base. Here Whis outlines the benefits from that.

[GTX]

Which episode in super that state even fusion cannot defeat beerus?

[LightBing]

Which episode in super that state even fusion cannot defeat beerus?

Fifth episode. It is said by Goku after being beatdown by Beerus, at the end of the episode.

[GTX]

Which episode in super that state even fusion cannot defeat beerus?

Fifth episode. It is said by Goku after being beatdown by Beerus, at the end of the episode.

I see, thanks.

[Herms]

Updated for episode 20.

Spoiler:

Minute: 2
Narrator: “And through the use of a cutting-edge regeneration device, Freeza was at last fully resurrected.”
Significance: The word for “regeneration” here is 再生/saisei, the same word typically used throughout the series to refer to how characters such as Piccolo, Cell, or Boo regrow limbs. Some have translated it as "reproduction equipment", which while not totally inaccurate, is kind of hilarious.

---

Minute: 4
Sorbet: “Tagoma is an excellent warrior, comparable to the late Zarbon-sama and Dodoria-sama.”
And later on:
Minute: 6
Freeza: He is comparable to Zarbon-san and Dodoria-san, you say? It appears the Freeza Army has weakened during my brief absence.”
Significance: As in RF, Sorbet hypes up Tagoma by saying that he is as “excellent” (優秀/yuushuu) a warrior as even Zarbon or Dodoria. The wording here is a bit vague, and doesn’t necessarily have to mean that Tagoma is as strong as Zarbon/Dodoria…though considering how obsessed with strength Freeza’s army is, there probably aren’t too many other qualities they would value in an “excellent warrior”. This was a controversial line in RF because in that version it was applied to both Tagoma and Shisami, the latter of which went on to battle Piccolo and Gohan in the movie. Interestingly, in Toriyama’s movie script as printed in Volume “F”, the line is only said of Tagoma, because there Shisami isn’t even mentioned until his fight with Piccolo; RF changed it, but Super follows the original script in this regard. Anyway, spoilers for future episodes indicate that Tagoma is going to get a massive upgrade pretty soon…

---

Minute: 6
Freeza: “Killing you immediately would bring me no entertainment. But as I have no need for weaklings, you may thus proceed to crawl on the floor like that for the rest of your days.”
Significance: Some have assumed this means Tagoma is now permanently crippled. Well, perhaps Freeza intended that, but we see later on that Tagoma is still able-bodied, and set to take part in the battle on Earth. And the previously mentioned spoilers indicate that Tagoma trains with Freeza.

---

Minute: 8
Whis: “You two! Your heightened ki is spilling out all around you. You must heighten it only within yourselves, so that your opponent can't sense it.”
Significance: At first glance this seems like it may have something to do with why gods’ ki can’t be sensed…although SSG Goku had a big flaming aura, and we see Beerus’ aura a few times too, both of which would presumably count as ki “leaking out”. After hearing this advice, there’s a weird blue flash when Goku and Vegeta punch each other, so maybe this will somehow connect with SSGSS?

---

Minute: 12-13
Trunks: “Cut it out, Goten. There's no way Mum would have a friend who wears full-body tights.”
Jaco: “I'm not wearing tights. This is my real skin!”
Goten: “Hey, where do they sell that mask?”
Jaco: “I'm not wearing a mask! This is my real face!”
Significance: So, this “Jaco” fellow is in fact Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, the main character of Toriyama’s aptly-named one-shot Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. Jaco’s relationship with Bulma and her family, the facts about his anatomy, and various other things mentioned in this episode were originally established in that manga:


Also, Jaco pees out of those little holes on the top of his head. In case you were wondering.

---

Minute: 14
Jaco: “Manipulating time is a serious crime according to the Galactic Laws! If he gets caught, he'll be sentenced to be sent drifting through the stars!”
Significance: The galactic laws against time travel (and more generally “time control”, which includes stopping time ala Gurd) were likewise established in the Jaco manga, although this is the first time we’ve ever been told what the punishment is for breaking these laws.

---

Minute: 15
Jaco: “But if the Saiyans have settled down on Earth...This might be bad...No, that mission expired! Yeah!”
Significance: Not to give too much away, but the main plot of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman involves Jaco being sent to Earth to protect it from an evil alien which the Galactic Patrol has determined will be landing on the planet soon. In the end, this alien turns out to be Goku, though Jaco ends up completely distracted when Goku’s ship lands and assumes the Saiyan didn’t come after all. Hence his shock here to learn that Saiyans have settled down on Earth, and his reference to his old mission to protect Earth from Saiyans.

---

Minute: 19
Android No.18: “I'll come, too. My battle power is much higher than you guys.”
Significance: This line was also in RF. Glossing over Kuririn’s fairly ridiculous reasons for not wanting 18 to come fight (“Protect our kid! And make dinner!”), what I mainly want to focus on here is that she uses the term “battle power” (戦闘力/sentou-ryoku, aka “power level” etc). In the original manga and anime, this was lingo only used by Freeza’s army. There were a few exceptions, but the only Z Warrior to ever routinely use the phrase was Vegeta, as a holdover from his time as one of Freeza’s scouter-wearing goons (similar to how he always insists on referring to Goku as “Kakarot”).

Even other groups of bad guys interested in measuring power, like Gero or Babidi, have their own particular ways of referring to it. Starting with BoG though, there’s been a tendency in new material for everyone to use the term “battle power” (a bit like how the Funi dub has most characters say “power level”). This may seem small…OK, this is small, but for those who keep track of such things, seeing 18 suddenly throw the term “battle power” out there is slightly jarring, in the same was as if she bragged about how high her Kiri rating was, or what she scored on the Punch Machine.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Hmm. I thought the line about Tagoma being an excellent warrior on par with the previous advisors/guards/whatever-Zarbon-and-Dodoria-were was made clearer in Super that it wasn't about power, but loyalty. Freeza questions that standing after Tagoma runs his mouth about being best to ignore the Saiyans, and basically says Zarbon and Dodoria would have never suggested such a cowardly thing.

Though mentioning Shisami in Super would have made even more sense in that case, as he questions Tagoma's loyalty in the prior episode.

[RandomGuy96]

Android No.18: “I'll come, too. My battle power is much higher than you guys.”
Significance: This line was also in RF. Glossing over Kuririn’s fairly ridiculous reasons for not wanting 18 to come fight (“Protect our kid! And make dinner!”),

Heh heh heh. At least they're being honest this time.

[ssj_duelist]

I think people are incorrectly taking the 'make dinner' line as a sexist comment but it quite clearly is an endearing line by Krillin just telling her he will be home safe.