Dragon Ball Minus is not bad.

[TobyS]

Yeah people overstate the changes.
Gine gives a shit about her kid more than most saiyans.
New material.

Bardock is still a genocidal prick but, but has good socialist praxis and cares about his comrades a little bit more than others.
Same material.

Bardock cares a tiny bit about his son. Which he attributes to his wife's influence. Could just be being macho and in denial.
New material in relation to special but already canon via toriyama interview statements anyway.

He's still sent as a pod/infiltration baby identical to before. Just his parents do it to save him.
Slight change, sans Freeza he'd still grow up to be a prick and kill people ala the of story, just like bardock as opposed to a pod baby. Functionally no difference.
Basically the same.

He's still expected to kill/take over earth because that's what pod babies do. Neither parent gives a shit about earthlings.
Same.

Raditz knows where he was sent and that he was sent there as a pod baby.
That's the exact same. Perhaps he's not told the motivations, perhaps it's safer for him not to. we don't know, it's off panel.

I only miss the psychic powers thing because it's now created an inconsistency for xenoverse...

[Master Xar]

What even is your "storytelling perspective" because i'm getting really mixed messages as to what you actually think a story should and shouldn't be, and more to the point how can you be fair about what it is. It isn't anything, it's just a bunch of stuff that happens and then it ends as abruptly as it starts. You're none the wiser as to who anyone is or why it is that they came to the conclusions they did. What's the point in that. Calling it a setup or pre-story doesn't help it either, what is it even setting up?

I just don't really get where you're coming from with all this. What's not to be mad about. All Dragon Ball Minus is is supplementary material disguised as a story, and a pretty shitty one at that.

Because it just does what it should in those 15 pages. Go over the events in the pace it can give in those 15 pages. It’s meant to give a basic overview and explain the setup and plot points for later events like The Saiyan Saga, builds up on things that weren’t introduced meta-wise like SSJG. It leaves a lot unexplained so that the story isn’t locked down by potential plot-holes in the current story. it’s a short story meant to contextualize the later events. The past being left ambiguous let’s writer have more flexibility to bring up new villains like Broly, other saiyans, Freeza, etc. without creating risk of plotholes

It hits the key points that without creating many if not at any at all objective writing faults besides the Superman-esque thing, but still very egregious as it being a short story doesn’t have room to flesh that out to make it it’s own. The more you summarize something, the less outright unique it’ll be. You can’t always see a story as this big fleshed out thing with all major plot points and established characters. You can’t expect that in a short story nor can you say it’s objectively bad for doing so.

It is a simple 15 page story and I feel there is nothing wrong with going that direction.

But it isn't a story, it doesn't tell you anything. It just relays information to you and you're supposed to give a shit because it goes with the assumption that you already know all of it anyway. I mean just for the sake of argument, if had read Jaco without any prior knowledge of DragonBall and then came to the end and read Dragon Ball Minus. What would I have to take away from that? There's some dude called Bardock and some guy called Freeza, I have no idea who they are or why I should care about what it is they're doing because they story doesn't care enough to tell me.

Point I'm trying to make is that it sucks at being a story in and of it's self and it also sucks at being a competent backstory for DragonBall. All this hot air about it being more ambiguous so as to set up things for later just sounds like a flimsy excuse because it doesn't really contextualise later events either. Sure Freeza mentions Super Saiyan God but it isn't relevant to either Dragon Ball Minus or Battle of Gods apart from the form appearing in the latter, but Freeza isn't present in that story nor is it really all that relevant when he does show up.

Yeah. It isn’t. That is the point. You aren’t supposed to give a shit because it’s purpose is to inform, not to entertain. It doesn’t try to assume that you already know the information outside of what we already know in the present (the main storyline) we know who Freeza is. We learn who Bardock is as a basic summary, but he isn’t important to the main story in any way, he is part of that happen that lead to Goku going to Earth. That is it.

You aren’t meant to care here, as again it’s just information on the events to come later, why do you want to care because you like The Bardock Special you want it to be a fleshed out story like The Bardock Special which all is purely subjective.

I’m going to say it here... If the Bardock Special did not exist and we only had DB- would you be giving the same complaints now? I doubt it. I feel at most you’d argue it needs to be expanded upon, but again that’s opinion/subjective.

[Shiro97]

Because it just does what it should in those 15 pages. Go over the events in the pace it can give in those 15 pages. It’s meant to give a basic overview and explain the setup and plot points for later events like The Saiyan Saga, builds up on things that weren’t introduced meta-wise like SSJG. It leaves a lot unexplained so that the story isn’t locked down by potential plot-holes in the current story. it’s a short story meant to contextualize the later events. The past being left ambiguous let’s writer have more flexibility to bring up new villains like Broly, other saiyans, Freeza, etc. without creating risk of plotholes

It hits the key points that without creating many if not at any at all objective writing faults besides the Superman-esque thing, but still very egregious as it being a short story doesn’t have room to flesh that out to make it it’s own. The more you summarize something, the less outright unique it’ll be. You can’t always see a story as this big fleshed out thing with all major plot points and established characters. You can’t expect that in a short story nor can you say it’s objectively bad for doing so.

It is a simple 15 page story and I feel there is nothing wrong with going that direction.

But it isn't a story, it doesn't tell you anything. It just relays information to you and you're supposed to give a shit because it goes with the assumption that you already know all of it anyway. I mean just for the sake of argument, if had read Jaco without any prior knowledge of DragonBall and then came to the end and read Dragon Ball Minus. What would I have to take away from that? There's some dude called Bardock and some guy called Freeza, I have no idea who they are or why I should care about what it is they're doing because they story doesn't care enough to tell me.

Point I'm trying to make is that it sucks at being a story in and of it's self and it also sucks at being a competent backstory for DragonBall. All this hot air about it being more ambiguous so as to set up things for later just sounds like a flimsy excuse because it doesn't really contextualise later events either. Sure Freeza mentions Super Saiyan God but it isn't relevant to either Dragon Ball Minus or Battle of Gods apart from the form appearing in the latter, but Freeza isn't present in that story nor is it really all that relevant when he does show up.

Yeah. It isn’t. That is the point. You aren’t supposed to give a shit because it’s purpose is to inform, not to entertain. It doesn’t try to assume that you already know the information outside of what we already know in the present (the main storyline) we know who Freeza is. We learn who Bardock is as a basic summary, but he isn’t important to the main story in any way, he is part of that happen that lead to Goku going to Earth. That is it.

You aren’t meant to care here, as again it’s just information on the events to come later, why do you want to care because you like The Bardock Special you want it to be a fleshed out story like The Bardock Special which all is purely subjective.

I’m going to say it here... If the Bardock Special did not exist and we only had DB- would you be giving the same complaints now? I doubt it. I feel at most you’d argue it needs to be expanded upon, but again that’s opinion/subjective.

If it isn't interested in telling a good story why does it present itself as a prequel to DragonBall? Honestly if the Bardock special didn't exist I still wouldn't give a shit, because then all I would get out of it is that Goku has parents and Freeza killed them for whatever reason. It's just a big old pile of nothing, that would be like if we had a backstory about the Androids and all we learned were their real names.

[Cipher]

Again. Most of that is still subjective.

Buddy, fiction is subjective. The very title of your thread is a subjective statement.

You want an objective statement on "Dragon Ball Minus"? "Dragon Ball Minus" is a comic written by Akira Toriyama and published in 2014. It is sixteen pages long.

I'm not invested enough in the work in question to continue this any further. I can't imagine why anyone would be.

[Master Xar]

Again. Most of that is still subjective.

Buddy, fiction is subjective. The very title of your thread is a subjective statement.

You want an objective statement on "Dragon Ball Minus"? "Dragon Ball Minus" is a comic written by Akira Toriyama and published in 2014. It is sixteen pages long.

I'm not invested enough in the work in question to continue this any further. I can't imagine why anyone would be.

And I clarified that it is not objectively bad. Art is meant to be interpreted of course. I just see it as a big problem with the fandom that harps and bashes on the story of any material in whatever form for the sake of doing it or not being informed on it.

I’m seeing this from a fair and unbiased perspective. Again I love The Bardock Special more because it’s fleshed out. But I’m not going to sit here and call DB- bad, just cause. I judged on what it’s trying to do.

[Master Xar]

But it isn't a story, it doesn't tell you anything. It just relays information to you and you're supposed to give a shit because it goes with the assumption that you already know all of it anyway. I mean just for the sake of argument, if had read Jaco without any prior knowledge of DragonBall and then came to the end and read Dragon Ball Minus. What would I have to take away from that? There's some dude called Bardock and some guy called Freeza, I have no idea who they are or why I should care about what it is they're doing because they story doesn't care enough to tell me.

Point I'm trying to make is that it sucks at being a story in and of it's self and it also sucks at being a competent backstory for DragonBall. All this hot air about it being more ambiguous so as to set up things for later just sounds like a flimsy excuse because it doesn't really contextualise later events either. Sure Freeza mentions Super Saiyan God but it isn't relevant to either Dragon Ball Minus or Battle of Gods apart from the form appearing in the latter, but Freeza isn't present in that story nor is it really all that relevant when he does show up.

Yeah. It isn’t. That is the point. You aren’t supposed to give a shit because it’s purpose is to inform, not to entertain. It doesn’t try to assume that you already know the information outside of what we already know in the present (the main storyline) we know who Freeza is. We learn who Bardock is as a basic summary, but he isn’t important to the main story in any way, he is part of that happen that lead to Goku going to Earth. That is it.

You aren’t meant to care here, as again it’s just information on the events to come later, why do you want to care because you like The Bardock Special you want it to be a fleshed out story like The Bardock Special which all is purely subjective.

I’m going to say it here... If the Bardock Special did not exist and we only had DB- would you be giving the same complaints now? I doubt it. I feel at most you’d argue it needs to be expanded upon, but again that’s opinion/subjective.

If it isn't interested in telling a good story why does it present itself as a prequel to DragonBall? Honestly if the Bardock special didn't exist I still wouldn't give a shit, because then all I would get out of it is that Goku has parents and Freeza killed them for whatever reason. It's just a big old pile of nothing, that would be like if we had a backstory about the Androids and all we learned were their real names.

It isn’t it is a bonus chapter to another manga. What are you expecting out of that? A novel on the whole story dude? It’s meant to be Toriyama’s quick game on it and that’s it. But it, along with many things in Dragonball is overhated for the sake of it.

[KBABZ]

That's not a plot-hole, just an oversight made by Freeza. The message sent was intended for the Saiyans out doing their job, telling them to head on home. Freeza isn't that overly concerned about destroying EVERY single Saiyan in existence. His main fear are them all banding together and rebelling with great numbers. Having a couple in his control isn't as much of a concern, and he can pick them off later if he really wants to.

I dunno, to me Freeza would have been more paranoid than that. Given his behaviour on Namek, having lots of little baby Saiyans growing up on planets unknown with a chance to rock up to him at any time and fight would seriously trigger his paranoia to me, and he would have taken greater precautions. He was paranoid about Vegeta, and Goku, and Gohan. He states at some point that he wants to eliminate any chance of opposition... so why didn't he the first time?

It was also the special that depicted Goku being sent out while Freeza's plan was being set in motion, so if we were to ignore it and focus solely on the manga, it's quite plausible Goku could've been sent out before any commands were given anyway.

Which to me would come off as a bit sloppy on Frieza's part; an operation to recall every Saiyan in his service would be a process that would take months, if not years. If I were in his position, the recall would include Saiyan children (and we know the Saiyans are getting stronger), so forces would arrive to come pick them up, right? Which would recall Goku too, wouldn't it? Instead, Frieza recalls some in the space of a day, destroys the homeworld and leaves it at that. It should come as no shock to him that someone like Goku eventually showed up because he didn't do a complete job, despite his clear motivations to do so.

Gine's softer personality to me also semi-explains why Goku has a softer personality after hitting his head; he got that from his mother.

That would render Goku as someone who is inherently different and special compared to other Saiyans, which would make it worse, not better for me. It would make it seem as if his bump on the head merely "triggered" something always inside of him, and that it was pretty much destined to happen.

I always kinda felt that he was. A low-class warrior with the amount of talent to one-up Vegeta? Special up the wazoo if you ask me. And, for the entirety of the pre-Saiyan content of Dragon Ball he was considered innately talented and durable for no given reason, ie Special. That aside, the personality change IMO never affected how talented he was to begin with, and even without Gine it makes him different from literally every other Saiyan.

[Shiro97]

Yeah. It isn’t. That is the point. You aren’t supposed to give a shit because it’s purpose is to inform, not to entertain. It doesn’t try to assume that you already know the information outside of what we already know in the present (the main storyline) we know who Freeza is. We learn who Bardock is as a basic summary, but he isn’t important to the main story in any way, he is part of that happen that lead to Goku going to Earth. That is it.

You aren’t meant to care here, as again it’s just information on the events to come later, why do you want to care because you like The Bardock Special you want it to be a fleshed out story like The Bardock Special which all is purely subjective.

I’m going to say it here... If the Bardock Special did not exist and we only had DB- would you be giving the same complaints now? I doubt it. I feel at most you’d argue it needs to be expanded upon, but again that’s opinion/subjective.

If it isn't interested in telling a good story why does it present itself as a prequel to DragonBall? Honestly if the Bardock special didn't exist I still wouldn't give a shit, because then all I would get out of it is that Goku has parents and Freeza killed them for whatever reason. It's just a big old pile of nothing, that would be like if we had a backstory about the Androids and all we learned were their real names.

It isn’t it is a bonus chapter to another manga. What are you expecting out of that? A novel on the whole story dude? It’s meant to be Toriyama’s quick game on it and that’s it. But it, along with many things in Dragonball is overhated for the sake of it.

You're just arguing round and round in circles, someone argues it's a bad story you argue it's exposition. The book itself calls it a special bonus story, what am I supposed to say. It wanted to be it's own take on Bardock's story and fucked the whole thing up by not taking the time to tell an actual story, calling it pre-story and saying it gets a pass because it's "not trying to tell a story" is stupid. That's not how it works, if you want to come up with titbits of information but can't be bothered to write a story around it, write a guidebook or some shit. Don't shove it into the end of some other story as an afterthought.

[Master Xar]

If it isn't interested in telling a good story why does it present itself as a prequel to DragonBall? Honestly if the Bardock special didn't exist I still wouldn't give a shit, because then all I would get out of it is that Goku has parents and Freeza killed them for whatever reason. It's just a big old pile of nothing, that would be like if we had a backstory about the Androids and all we learned were their real names.

It isn’t it is a bonus chapter to another manga. What are you expecting out of that? A novel on the whole story dude? It’s meant to be Toriyama’s quick game on it and that’s it. But it, along with many things in Dragonball is overhated for the sake of it.

You're just arguing round and round in circles, someone argues it's a bad story you argue it's exposition. The book itself calls it a special bonus story, what am I supposed to say. It wanted to be it's own take on Bardock's story and fucked the whole thing up by not taking the time to tell an actual story, calling it pre-story and saying it gets a pass because it's "not trying to tell a story" is stupid. That's not how it works, if you want to come up with titbits of information but can't be bothered to write a story around it, write a guidebook or some shit. Don't shove it into the end of some other story as an afterthought.

I literally just said it. It is a short story meant to inform. It didn’t just hail itself as that and “special” is an ambiguous adjective man. It wanted to be a quick take on the events. Not tell a story. you think it fucked up by not trying to tell a story, but that’s your opinion. It is it’s own short story it is not inherently or objectively wrong for doing so. It’s doing what it’s doing to inform on the invents. You don’t like it because it’s not a big fleshed out story like you hoped it would.

This is Toriyama’s decision on how he wants to tell the events. You want it to be a guide? You want it to not be a bonus manga? Cool. Good for you. Toriyama disagrees.

[Captain-Sora]

I dunno, to me Freeza would have been more paranoid than that. Given his behaviour on Namek, having lots of little baby Saiyans growing up on planets unknown with a chance to rock up to him at any time and fight would seriously trigger his paranoia to me, and he would have taken greater precautions. He was paranoid about Vegeta, and Goku, and Gohan. He states at some point that he wants to eliminate any chance of opposition... so why didn't he the first time?

Expectations of what a couple of Saiyans could do would naturally shift over time when Vegeta starts blowing away his higher ranking subordinates and he engages with someone like Goku. All those years ago, the main concern was just what could've potentially happened had they all banded together, especially if they were all able to capitalize on the Great Ape transformation at the right time and place.

Which to me would come off as a bit sloppy on Frieza's part; an operation to recall every Saiyan in his service would be a process that would take months, if not years. If I were in his position, the recall would include Saiyan children (and we know the Saiyans are getting stronger), so forces would arrive to come pick them up, right? Which would recall Goku too, wouldn't it? Instead, Frieza recalls some in the space of a day, destroys the homeworld and leaves it at that. It should come as no shock to him that someone like Goku eventually showed up because he didn't do a complete job, despite his clear motivations to do so.

It is sloppy, but again, that isn't a plot hole. That's just a slip up. He prioritized on wiping out the majority at a point in time where most of them were already on the planet, and any of them that didn't make it back at the time would be kept under his thumb or dealt with later because, again, all he was concerned about at the time were their numbers. As you said, it would realistically take much longer for every single one to be brought back, but by then, everyone would already suspect something was up if they were told to just stay put and not do anything for such a prolonged period. He did what he thought was best, and then suffered for his errors in judgement later.

I always kinda felt that he was. A low-class warrior with the amount of talent to one-up Vegeta? Special up the wazoo if you ask me. And, for the entirety of the pre-Saiyan content of Dragon Ball he was considered innately talented and durable for no given reason, ie Special.

I know, which is why the Saiyan arc coming and turning his peculiar nature as the durable, monkey tailed boy on its head was so great. The dramatic unveiling of him being a low-class Saiyan that was sent off to take over a planet helps to ground his initial special nature and further supports the themes of working hard to surpass one's own limitations. Minus coming and potentially (I say potentially, since the idea of Gine being the source of his softness is more of something one can infer than outright confirmed, fortunately) making him special even within the context of being a Saiyan is like backpedaling.

That aside, the personality change IMO never affected how talented he was to begin with, and even without Gine it makes him different from literally every other Saiyan.

Being unique and different from birth is not the same as becoming different through life experience, though, and that's a important distinction.

[Shiro97]

It isn’t it is a bonus chapter to another manga. What are you expecting out of that? A novel on the whole story dude? It’s meant to be Toriyama’s quick game on it and that’s it. But it, along with many things in Dragonball is overhated for the sake of it.

You're just arguing round and round in circles, someone argues it's a bad story you argue it's exposition. The book itself calls it a special bonus story, what am I supposed to say. It wanted to be it's own take on Bardock's story and fucked the whole thing up by not taking the time to tell an actual story, calling it pre-story and saying it gets a pass because it's "not trying to tell a story" is stupid. That's not how it works, if you want to come up with titbits of information but can't be bothered to write a story around it, write a guidebook or some shit. Don't shove it into the end of some other story as an afterthought.

I literally just said it. It is a short story meant to inform. It didn’t just hail itself as that and “special” is an ambiguous adjective man. It wanted to be a quick take on the events. Not tell a story. you think it fucked up by not trying to tell a story, but that’s your opinion. It is it’s own short story it is not inherently or objectively wrong for doing so. It’s doing what it’s doing to inform on the invents. You don’t like it because it’s not a big fleshed out story like you hoped it would.

This is Toriyama’s decision on how he wants to tell the events. You want it to be a guide? You want it to not be a bonus manga? Cool. Good for you. Toriyama disagrees.

Your whole argument is predicated upon DB- being objectively solid so long as you only look at it through the lens of it being a summary of events. I don't see how you can be objective about it. The fact of the matter here is that it doesn't stand on it's own or as part of the bigger picture, without prior knowledge of DragonBall it just comes across as bunch of nonsense because even if you look at it as a summary it doesn't properly inform the reader of who everyone is and their reasons for acting the way they do. Even if you are caught up with DragonBall, how is it worth your time. It just tells you stuff you already know, but then introduces things you don't without taking the time to tell you what there all about. And I don't buy that it was part of some grand scheme to tie all the new material together, it was cobbled together at the last second to get you to buy the Kanzeban.

I don't really know where to go from here, you seem pretty dead set on what you think DB- is and what others should think about it. I've put my opinion out there and you don't agree, that's fine. But I struggle to see how changing it's classification from a story to exposition makes it any better.

[Doctor.]

In what way? Outside of his parents actually caring about their family (which is to say that doesn’t mean other saiyans couldn’t be good in their own ways) they are still just as murderous and as cruel as the other saiyans to where they send their sons. Off planet to kill entire races (and yes THEY still do this since Raditz is seen doing this)

Considering Toriyama specifically mentions that Bardock and Gine are the only Saiyans who care about their family, then yes, they are special. Gine doesn't kill like other Saiyans considering she's too gentle for that (again, Toriyama said this) and the aliens Bardock killed were evil-looking non-humanoids. Although it doesn't absolve him from his sins, it is definitely a conscious decision trying to portray the Saiyans in a less negative light.

Now you tell me, which one do you prefer: the story of a forgotten and unloved Saiyan deemed so weak by his fellow Saiyans, and by his own parents, that he got sent to an extremely weak planet to wipe it out (and we can infer that nobody would have really cared had he succeeded or not, and whether he had lived or not), but ironically, by pure will, hard work and a bit of luck, he becomes the planet's strongest protector, defying the will of the family that never cared for him to begin with; or the story of a Saiyan who had such special parents who loved him so very much that they sent him to a weak planet to protect him, and he ends up following in their footsteps and likewise becomes a kind-hearted Saiyan who protects his loved ones. Now I'm not saying you can't write a story around the latter option, but that's clearly not what Dragon Ball was written around. Dragon Ball was written around the first idea, and this is very clear, Bardock special or not (because you can infer everything I just said from exposition in the main story alone), once you read the Saiyan arc. To retrospectively apply the revelations that Minus gives you to Dragon Ball means the themes and character dynamics the Saiyan arc developed are entirely meaningless. Minus is not only a bad story in its own right, but it retroactively turns a very good story into a mediocre and meaningless one.

Which is to say Raditz can just look at the lost or missing saiyan pods and any likely locations or planets Goku might be sent to from there.

I mean, there's nothing to suggest he can't, but unless Raditz found Goku on his first try, then you'd imagine Freeza would start getting suspicious about Raditz going to different planets all the time in search of something.

[Grimlock]

It’s meant to set up things later and be expanded on at a later date.

I thought that could be the case when Dragon Ball Minus was released, but oh well... Four years has passed and nothing came out that complemented it. We had a new series in-between, but it preferred to retell unnecessary stories and to give us two tournaments. I imagined that if a later work could complement Dragon Ball Minus, it could be better, but so far, as long as Dragon Ball Minus continues to be what it is, it's bad.

Not every piece of a story has to be completely explained or fleshed out from the start.

And while I agree, the past of the Saiyans is not one of those stories. Some events has to be shown and fleshed out.

To say it’s “bad” that the chapter is some horrible thing just because it’s summarized the beginning in my opinion is BS.

To you may be bullshit but not to others. Maybe people just care enough for Dragon Ball for it to have a good origin story with characters from the past with their own character development nicely done. It's not like people is asking too much.

[Doctor.]

And I clarified that it is not objectively bad. Art is meant to be interpreted of course. I just see it as a big problem with the fandom that harps and bashes on the story of any material in whatever form for the sake of doing it or not being informed on it.

I’m seeing this from a fair and unbiased perspective. Again I love The Bardock Special more because it’s fleshed out. But I’m not going to sit here and call DB- bad, just cause. I judged on what it’s trying to do.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing for at this point. Are you saying we don't have the right to call anything bad? Because that's what it seems like. Because that's what saying "Art is meant to be interpreted" means, it means nothing is "objectively bad." If that's your opinion, then, I dunno, go right ahead, but that won't stop anyone from criticizing what they don't like. And I'm sure even you must have something you dislike which, unless you want to label yourself as a hypocrite, you can't call bad.

[Master Xar]

You're just arguing round and round in circles, someone argues it's a bad story you argue it's exposition. The book itself calls it a special bonus story, what am I supposed to say. It wanted to be it's own take on Bardock's story and fucked the whole thing up by not taking the time to tell an actual story, calling it pre-story and saying it gets a pass because it's "not trying to tell a story" is stupid. That's not how it works, if you want to come up with titbits of information but can't be bothered to write a story around it, write a guidebook or some shit. Don't shove it into the end of some other story as an afterthought.

I literally just said it. It is a short story meant to inform. It didn’t just hail itself as that and “special” is an ambiguous adjective man. It wanted to be a quick take on the events. Not tell a story. you think it fucked up by not trying to tell a story, but that’s your opinion. It is it’s own short story it is not inherently or objectively wrong for doing so. It’s doing what it’s doing to inform on the invents. You don’t like it because it’s not a big fleshed out story like you hoped it would.

This is Toriyama’s decision on how he wants to tell the events. You want it to be a guide? You want it to not be a bonus manga? Cool. Good for you. Toriyama disagrees.

Your whole argument is predicated upon DB- being objectively solid so long as you only look at it through the lens of it being a summary of events. I don't see how you can be objective about it. The fact of the matter here is that it doesn't stand on it's own or as part of the bigger picture, without prior knowledge of DragonBall it just comes across as bunch of nonsense because even if you look at it as a summary it doesn't properly inform the reader of who everyone is and their reasons for acting the way they do. Even if you are caught up with DragonBall, how is it worth your time. It just tells you stuff you already know, but then introduces things you don't without taking the time to tell you what there all about. And I don't buy that it was part of some grand scheme to tie all the new material together, it was cobbled together at the last second to get you to buy the Kanzeban.

I don't really know where to go from here, you seem pretty dead set on what you think DB- is and what others should think about it. I've put my opinion out there and you don't agree, that's fine. But I struggle to see how changing it's classification from a story to exposition makes it any better.

We didn’t know Goku was snuck away to be flown off planet. We didn’t know how Freeza gathered all the saiyans originally. We didn’t know where the last remaining saiyans were. Hell Gine being alive. It tells you stuff, but keeps it relatively short as to expand on the past either somewhere down the line, or again give context.

I never said that it not being a story is better, again I like the Bardock Special more, but I see it personally that past events and characters unrelated to the main story should be kept short and as brief as possible to hold intrigue on a subject. People were still very curious on DB- events because it so quickly paced and unthorough. It leaves people curious. And I feel the fandom takes the curiousity and unexplanation of the characters and the past as some sort of bad writing, when again it’s a past event, and it’s just in a bonus manga. People on twitter outright saying they’ll demerit the movie or the saiyan saga from “making Minus canon”

[Master Xar]

It’s meant to set up things later and be expanded on at a later date.

I thought that could be the case when Dragon Ball Minus was released, but oh well... Four years has passed and nothing came out that complemented it. We had a new series in-between, but it preferred to retell unnecessary stories and to give us two tournaments. I imagined that if a later work could complement Dragon Ball Minus, it could be better, but so far, as long as Dragon Ball Minus continues to be what it is, it's bad.

Not every piece of a story has to be completely explained or fleshed out from the start.

And while I agree, the past of the Saiyans is not one of those stories. Some events has to be shown and fleshed out.

To say it’s “bad” that the chapter is some horrible thing just because it’s summarized the beginning in my opinion is BS.

To you may be bullshit but not to others. Maybe people just care enough for Dragon Ball for it to have a good origin story with characters from the past with their own character development nicely done. It's not like people is asking too much.

We potentially have it in the movie as your profile pic GIF looks like. And that still doesn’t discredit it as a setup for the future events as a whole. It’s still just there as a summary, summaries and a quick rush through the events isn’t necessarily good or bad writing as long as it keeps internal consistency.

Yes in your opinion it doesn’t. Still subjective. In my opinion past events should be left ambiguous as to not cause risk of inconsistencies to the main story. Toriyama doesn’t do flashbacks or harp on about past events too much. It gets its job done with him, explain how things got from Point A to Point B and that’s it.

Read the above on your last point. But again that’s all fine and good, but explanation of past event = / = good story, the main story is the focus, it can enhance it, but the main story is and should always be a main focus.

[ekrolo2]

I don't think Minus even works as a wikipedia entry as some argue it is, except with pictures added to it. It reads like the first couple opening paragraphs TO a wikipedia entry where we get the most condensed idea of what we're about to read. I mean, Minus doesn't give you any insight into why Freeza wants the Saiyan's gone or how he knows about SSGod, it doesn't really go into the Saiyan's relationship with him at all to explain why Bardock is paranoid about him,...

Some might say it'll be worth it because the Broly film will talk about Minus but I don't know. The whole "Freeza knows what SSGod is!" thing has been around for almost six years now and nothing has done anything with it. Goku says it in RoF and Freeza doesn't care, Freeza SEES and FIGHTS alongside SSGod Goku and it doesn't matter to him. You might say there's no narrative worth to point this out but you could use it as yet another thing Freeza fears coming back to bite him in the ass down the line which Goku also happened to attain. It'd be a lazy retread of Namek but it would be something, at least.

[Master Xar]

And I clarified that it is not objectively bad. Art is meant to be interpreted of course. I just see it as a big problem with the fandom that harps and bashes on the story of any material in whatever form for the sake of doing it or not being informed on it.

I’m seeing this from a fair and unbiased perspective. Again I love The Bardock Special more because it’s fleshed out. But I’m not going to sit here and call DB- bad, just cause. I judged on what it’s trying to do.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing for at this point. Are you saying we don't have the right to call anything bad? Because that's what it seems like. Because that's what saying "Art is meant to be interpreted" means, it means nothing is "objectively bad." If that's your opinion, then, I dunno, go right ahead, but that won't stop anyone from criticizing what they don't like. And I'm sure even you must have something you dislike which, unless you want to label yourself as a hypocrite, you can't call bad.

No I’m not saying that. There are plenty of things in all continuities in Dragonball I have a problem with, but a lot of people don’t seem to be really self aware in this fandom. That a lot of their criticisms come from a personal opinion on how they think X and X should have gone, and that’s all fine and dandy if it weren’t for the fact that the fandom completely lambasts certain things in the story as “bad writing” without knowing what bad writing really is.

Bad writing is failing in execution of what it tries to do, a lack of subtlety with a lot of show don’t tell (depending on the medium and how it adds to the story). Everything that functions in a story like comedy, action, fights, sound, music, camera work. All work to bring that vision or narrative to light, they have their ways of working and not working.

From the perspective I have on Dragonball GT and Super it does things in execution of things badly. GT in the first arc tries to emulate Dragonball comedy with very off-timing, overuse, using it when the characters on a very serious time limit of the Earth being blown up. A lot of the designs are ugly, especially the use of colors. Super has poor execution of character behavior. One of my biggest gripes being the ending of the future Trunks arc where everyone pretty much ignores how Trunks entire fucking timeline they nearly died for to protect got blown up with trying to make it a bittersweet or happy ending when it isn’t.

[VegettoEX]

Moderators and administrators are not required to also weigh in on the subject at hand when doing their job.

You continue to cite "the fandom"; there is no hivemind, there is no general consensus, and your own opinion is no more unique or special than that of anyone else responding to you. Everyone has different opinions and thoughts. Others seem willing to entertain yours; you do not seem to be willing to entertain theirs. Furthermore, the goalpost is constantly being moved and the subject is always being shifted away. This is not how you are expected to conduct yourself and have conversations with your fellow fans here.

[Master Xar]

In what way? Outside of his parents actually caring about their family (which is to say that doesn’t mean other saiyans couldn’t be good in their own ways) they are still just as murderous and as cruel as the other saiyans to where they send their sons. Off planet to kill entire races (and yes THEY still do this since Raditz is seen doing this)

Considering Toriyama specifically mentions that Bardock and Gine are the only Saiyans who care about their family, then yes, they are special. Gine doesn't kill like other Saiyans considering she's too gentle for that (again, Toriyama said this) and the aliens Bardock killed were evil-looking non-humanoids. Although it doesn't absolve him from his sins, it is definitely a conscious decision trying to portray the Saiyans in a less negative light.

Now you tell me, which one do you prefer: the story of a forgotten and unloved Saiyan deemed so weak by his fellow Saiyans, and by his own parents, that he got sent to an extremely weak planet to wipe it out (and we can infer that nobody would have really cared had he succeeded or not, and whether he had lived or not), but ironically, by pure will, hard work and a bit of luck, he becomes the planet's strongest protector, defying the will of the family that never cared for him to begin with; or the story of a Saiyan who had such special parents who loved him so very much that they sent him to a weak planet to protect him, and he ends up following in their footsteps and likewise becomes a kind-hearted Saiyan who protects his loved ones. Now I'm not saying you can't write a story around the latter option, but that's clearly not what Dragon Ball was written around. Dragon Ball was written around the first idea, and this is very clear, Bardock special or not (because you can infer everything I just said from exposition in the main story alone), once you read the Saiyan arc. To retrospectively apply the revelations that Minus gives you to Dragon Ball means the themes and character dynamics the Saiyan arc developed are entirely meaningless. Minus is not only a bad story in its own right, but it retroactively turns a very good story into a mediocre and meaningless one.

Which is to say Raditz can just look at the lost or missing saiyan pods and any likely locations or planets Goku might be sent to from there.

I mean, there's nothing to suggest he can't, but unless Raditz found Goku on his first try, then you'd imagine Freeza would start getting suspicious about Raditz going to different planets all the time in search of something.

1.) he says they are unusual, namely Gine, not the only saiyans that aren’t mindlessly hardheaded assholes, there are still saiyans that aren’t like the rest in some form or another out there, hell we are getting one in the upcoming movie dude. And I feel that there’s this very simplistic view that all saiyans as a whole are one-dimensional mindless fighting machines that are.

2.) I’m not going to get into any of which I prefer, but again those are just ways to interpret the narrative of the stories, you have to look at things from different than that if you are ever going to get enjoyment out of any story man. Those are 2 of what could be several narratives that could be interpreted from the DB- stuff. And again you can prefer the former, but don’t pretend that the latter is somehow worse without looking further into it. It’s not fair to look at one narrative and dive deep into how it works or not and treat the other as some piece of shit without looking into that form of execution.
It’s once again another thing the people blows way out of proportion when their beliefs in the narratives and how the story currently is is questioned, that Goku or his parents being “special” is some horrible thing that ruins the story without trying to look at it unbiased.

3.) Yes that is one way to explain why it took them so long in finding Goku on Earth. Freeza can’t really track them without scouters, and while he does keep tabs on them he isn’t watching them 24/7 he is the Emperor of a Galaxy space pirate organization you know. And that being my other point in explaining it is that Gine and Bardock would’ve tried to inform Raditz on the situation and gave him some vague hints to Goku’s whereabouts, but not to the rest of the situation.

4.) ^^^^ now do you see what I mean Doctor? Since the events in DB- are vague it leaves the audience to come up with their interpretation of the events, that not everything is cut, dry, and explained it leaves thing left to the imagination to be explained. It’s not a plothole when things aren’t as tightly written and explained and I prefer this, especially with past events such as this.