Dragon Ball Minus is not bad.

[Shiro97]

I literally just said it. It is a short story meant to inform. It didn’t just hail itself as that and “special” is an ambiguous adjective man. It wanted to be a quick take on the events. Not tell a story. you think it fucked up by not trying to tell a story, but that’s your opinion. It is it’s own short story it is not inherently or objectively wrong for doing so. It’s doing what it’s doing to inform on the invents. You don’t like it because it’s not a big fleshed out story like you hoped it would.

This is Toriyama’s decision on how he wants to tell the events. You want it to be a guide? You want it to not be a bonus manga? Cool. Good for you. Toriyama disagrees.

Your whole argument is predicated upon DB- being objectively solid so long as you only look at it through the lens of it being a summary of events. I don't see how you can be objective about it. The fact of the matter here is that it doesn't stand on it's own or as part of the bigger picture, without prior knowledge of DragonBall it just comes across as bunch of nonsense because even if you look at it as a summary it doesn't properly inform the reader of who everyone is and their reasons for acting the way they do. Even if you are caught up with DragonBall, how is it worth your time. It just tells you stuff you already know, but then introduces things you don't without taking the time to tell you what there all about. And I don't buy that it was part of some grand scheme to tie all the new material together, it was cobbled together at the last second to get you to buy the Kanzeban.

I don't really know where to go from here, you seem pretty dead set on what you think DB- is and what others should think about it. I've put my opinion out there and you don't agree, that's fine. But I struggle to see how changing it's classification from a story to exposition makes it any better.

We didn’t know Goku was snuck away to be flown off planet. We didn’t know how Freeza gathered all the saiyans originally. We didn’t know where the last remaining saiyans were. Hell Gine being alive. It tells you stuff, but keeps it relatively short as to expand on the past either somewhere down the line, or again give context.

I never said that it not being a story is better, again I like the Bardock Special more, but I see it personally that past events and characters unrelated to the main story should be kept short and as brief as possible to hold intrigue on a subject. People were still very curious on DB- events because it so quickly paced and unthorough. It leaves people curious. And I feel the fandom takes the curiousity and unexplanation of the characters and the past as some sort of bad writing, when again it’s a past event, and it’s just in a bonus manga. People on twitter outright saying they’ll demerit the movie or the saiyan saga from “making Minus canon”

It just being a bonus manga doesn't give it a get out jail free card. I'll admit it's blowing it out of proportion a bit to demerit the new movie or the saiyan arc because of it. Honestly though I don't really want to dedicate any more time to DB- and I know that's a bit of a cop out, but I've said my piece about it and I don't think we're gonna see eye to eye about anything.

[shadowfox87]

The news leading up to Minus established that Gine was a peculiar case, with Toriyama describing Goku's mother as an atypical Saiyan. Just because there's the possibility other of outliers doesn't suddenly make her that much less unique if she's still made out to be unusual. The point is that she and her whole relationship with Bardock are made out to be special for the sake of being special. The issues behind who she is and the actions she and Bardock made are not rendered moot just because Goku didn't pay heed to their words.

Let me get this straight, you DON'T want Gine to be a nice person with a softheart and you DON'T want Bardock's relationship to be good because all saiyans must be savage? Bardock and Gine were different from all the Saiyans. It is Bardock's relationship with Gine and his kind heart which led to the development of more S-cells which Goku inherited. I just understand why you think it is a problem if Toriyama creates characters that are different from the norm.

I KNOW that there are panels of his end in the manga. I outright stated that the manga referenced it. What I didn't state was that I wish the events of the special still happened, so I don't know where you're going with this or how it helps to alleviate the issues I have with Minus when they're still present, whether Bardock's situation depicted in the special still more or less happened or not.

Yea, the events of the special didn't happen. It's just not canon anymore. That's just the facts. You prefer the Bardock special over DB Minus. That's your personal preference but what I'm asking is what DB Minus did that creates a plot hole or contradiction in the main continuity and canon?

[WittyUsername]

The news leading up to Minus established that Gine was a peculiar case, with Toriyama describing Goku's mother as an atypical Saiyan. Just because there's the possibility other of outliers doesn't suddenly make her that much less unique if she's still made out to be unusual. The point is that she and her whole relationship with Bardock are made out to be special for the sake of being special. The issues behind who she is and the actions she and Bardock made are not rendered moot just because Goku didn't pay heed to their words.

Let me get this straight, you DON'T want Gine to be a nice person with a softheart and you DON'T want Bardock's relationship to be good because all saiyans must be savage? Bardock and Gine were different from all the Saiyans. It is Bardock's relationship with Gine and his kind heart which led to the development of more S-cells which Goku inherited. I just understand why you think it is a problem if Toriyama creates characters that are different from the norm.

I KNOW that there are panels of his end in the manga. I outright stated that the manga referenced it. What I didn't state was that I wish the events of the special still happened, so I don't know where you're going with this or how it helps to alleviate the issues I have with Minus when they're still present, whether Bardock's situation depicted in the special still more or less happened or not.

Yea, the events of the special didn't happen. It's just not canon anymore. That's just the facts. You prefer the Bardock special over DB Minus. That's your personal preference but what I'm asking is what DB Minus did that creates a plot hole or contradiction in the main continuity and canon?

The big issue people take with the idea that Goku partially inherited his good nature from his biological parents is that it only makes him too special, but it also takes away from the implication that Goku would’ve ravaged the Earth if it hadn’t been for his head injury. When the concept of Goku being an alien was first introduced in the Saiyan arc, he was made out to be a completely unremarkable reject who was sent to a trash planet to carry out a trash mission. Minus undermines that by establishing that not only were Goku’s parents anomalies among his race, but that the whole reason he was on Earth to begin with was because his parents selflessly threw away their own chance of survival for his sake.

[Master Xar]

The news leading up to Minus established that Gine was a peculiar case, with Toriyama describing Goku's mother as an atypical Saiyan. Just because there's the possibility other of outliers doesn't suddenly make her that much less unique if she's still made out to be unusual. The point is that she and her whole relationship with Bardock are made out to be special for the sake of being special. The issues behind who she is and the actions she and Bardock made are not rendered moot just because Goku didn't pay heed to their words.

Let me get this straight, you DON'T want Gine to be a nice person with a softheart and you DON'T want Bardock's relationship to be good because all saiyans must be savage? Bardock and Gine were different from all the Saiyans. It is Bardock's relationship with Gine and his kind heart which led to the development of more S-cells which Goku inherited. I just understand why you think it is a problem if Toriyama creates characters that are different from the norm.

I KNOW that there are panels of his end in the manga. I outright stated that the manga referenced it. What I didn't state was that I wish the events of the special still happened, so I don't know where you're going with this or how it helps to alleviate the issues I have with Minus when they're still present, whether Bardock's situation depicted in the special still more or less happened or not.

Yea, the events of the special didn't happen. It's just not canon anymore. That's just the facts. You prefer the Bardock special over DB Minus. That's your personal preference but what I'm asking is what DB Minus did that creates a plot hole or contradiction in the main continuity and canon?

The big issue people take with the idea that Goku partially inherited his good nature from his biological parents is that it only makes him too special, but it also takes away from the implication that Goku would’ve ravaged the Earth if it hadn’t been for his head injury. When the concept of Goku being an alien was first introduced in the Saiyan arc, he was made out to be a completely unremarkable reject who was sent to a trash planet to carry out a trash mission. Minus undermines that by establishing that not only were Goku’s parents anomalies among his race, but that the whole reason he was on Earth to begin with was because his parents selflessly threw away their own chance of survival for his sake.

And DB Minus doesn’t take away from the Saiyan Saga from a character perspective. It just gives us a different form of irony here and leaves the “Goku would’ve been an evil asshole if he didn’t hit his head” in a more ambiguous light.
It’s only Vegeta and Co. that think Goku is trash and that he is unremarkable, they don’t see any potential in him power-wise (up till a certain point) or as a Saiyan warrior. They haven’t met his parents or know what he’d become in the future, or that he himself would become a kind-hearted Saiyan warrior like him.

It serves as a good form of dramatic irony, and leaves the “Goku not hitting his head” situation up to the imagination, would he have gone on to destroy Earth like the rest of the Saiyans and follow in his fathers exact footsteps? Or settle down on destroying the Earth like he did if he didn’t hit his head? It doesn’t leave it a cut and dry “All saiyans are evil pricks if they didn’t hit their heads like Goku.”

[Doctor.]

No I’m not saying that. There are plenty of things in all continuities in Dragonball I have a problem with, but a lot of people don’t seem to be really self aware in this fandom. That a lot of their criticisms come from a personal opinion on how they think X and X should have gone, and that’s all fine and dandy if it weren’t for the fact that the fandom completely lambasts certain things in the story as “bad writing” without knowing what bad writing really is.

I have seen very few people in this thread doing what you claim. What I've seen is people argue how Minus contradicts the thematic underpinnings of the original material. That's not coming from a "personal opinion on how they think X and X should have gone," it comes from interpretation and cross-examination of what the two stories present you.

Bad writing is failing in execution of what it tries to do

What does Minus try to do? Present Goku's backstory. Ok, we're showing you how it fails at that.

And again you can prefer the former, but don’t pretend that the latter is somehow worse without looking further into it. It’s not fair to look at one narrative and dive deep into how it works or not and treat the other as some piece of shit without looking into that form of execution.

I've already explained that such a story can function, but it doesn't work in this particular context because the Saiyans and Goku's backstory were written differently in the original story than what Minus portrays; and it renders themes and character dynamics in the original story almost meaningless. You're just ignoring everything people are saying in favor of a nauseous "We have to be fair, guys."

It’s once again another thing the people blows way out of proportion when their beliefs in the narratives and how the story currently is is questioned, that Goku or his parents being “special” is some horrible thing that ruins the story without trying to look at it unbiased.

Goku isn't special in the original story, at least the Saiyan arc doesn't portray him as such (you can make the argument that previous and latter arcs do, but those are irrelevant to the context of his backstory and reason for being sent to Earth). If you change this one fact about Goku, and make him special, then you change the way the entire arc is read.

This is me being unbiased: Minus changes the way the Saiyan arc is read; this is a fact. This is my opinion: it changes it for the worse, and I've argued why already. Now you can use your cop-out argument of "Ok, but just because it's different or you don't like it doesn't mean it's objectively bad" but that's no argument worthy of discussion because you can apply it to defend literally anything in existence.

[Master Xar]

No I’m not saying that. There are plenty of things in all continuities in Dragonball I have a problem with, but a lot of people don’t seem to be really self aware in this fandom. That a lot of their criticisms come from a personal opinion on how they think X and X should have gone, and that’s all fine and dandy if it weren’t for the fact that the fandom completely lambasts certain things in the story as “bad writing” without knowing what bad writing really is.

I have seen very few people in this thread doing what you claim. What I've seen is people argue how Minus contradicts the thematic underpinnings of the original material. That's not coming from a "personal opinion on how they think X and X should have gone," it comes from interpretation and cross-examination of what the two stories present you.

Bad writing is failing in execution of what it tries to do

What does Minus try to do? Present Goku's backstory. Ok, we're showing you how it fails at that.

1.) yes, but again that’s still subjective. Theme is left up in the air a lot of the time in storytelling, you and a lot of others here have the idea that this one interpretation of the narrative hold weight above all else and that it should not be looked at in a new light or perspective whatsoever. It’s like I said with Art and storytelling it’s all left to a mixture of the imagination built up of show, don’t tell from the events of point A to point B and how explained or unexplained certain events are.

2.) Yes it does that. It does not objectively fail or cause plotholes. Like I said before you hold one interpretation and preference for how and what the narrative is and when presented with new information (in this case Bardock and Gine) you are so firm in your belief in that is how the story should be without looking from a different perspective to how it adds to a new interpretation of the story.

3.) yes and what is objectively bad about that? A new fact is presented of the story so we can look at it from a new light of what the narrative or story here is. Just because Minus changes that (it really doesn’t do much if you look at my reply to WittyUsername) doesn’t mean it is bad in any form just because you prefer the original. That is still an opinion.

Edit: Ok then, then let’s not hail DB- as some spawn of the devil just because it changes the Original then, at the end of the day I’ve said my piece and you said your piece, I’m here to open minds on the discussion of DB- because it is held up as being bad for what it does. Storytelling is an art form and your discussions on it are more subjective than you think. Come to a new perspective or interpretation and you might find yourself liking it more. Or not. But my point still stands.

[Captain-Sora]

Let me get this straight, you DON'T want Gine to be a nice person with a softheart and you DON'T want Bardock's relationship to be good because all saiyans must be savage? Bardock and Gine were different from all the Saiyans. It is Bardock's relationship with Gine and his kind heart which led to the development of more S-cells which Goku inherited. I just understand why you think it is a problem if Toriyama creates characters that are different from the norm.

I've already stated the reasons as to why I don't care for it, and it isn't because all Saiyans somehow MUST be savage. Don't make me repeat myself further again.

Yea, the events of the special didn't happen. It's just not canon anymore. That's just the facts. You prefer the Bardock special over DB Minus. That's your personal preference but what I'm asking is what DB Minus did that creates a plot hole or contradiction in the main continuity and canon?

You keep coming back to this whole thing about the special and people's preferences over it make them biased, when the whole reason I started posting in this thread was to present criticisms I had with Minus that have little to do with it "not being as good as the special." I do not understand why you keep raising this subject and why you think I'm so concerned about the canonicity of the special.

[Doctor.]

1.) yes, but again that’s still subjective.

Dude, look, I don't want to be mean here, but you're in way over your head. Everything is subjective when it comes to storytelling. You're defending a piece of art. You are being subjective. Your statement "Dragon Ball Minus is not bad" is a subjective statement. This is such a meaningless argument because you can apply it to anything. I could pick apart any criticism you have about anything in existence and shut it down with "Well, that's your opinion, it's not objectively bad." That is actively harmful to discussion because you're not engaging in debate. Here, I'll do with your GT and Super criticisms last page:

From the perspective I have on Dragonball GT and Super it does things in execution of things badly. GT in the first arc tries to emulate Dragonball comedy with very off-timing, overuse, using it when the characters on a very serious time limit of the Earth being blown up. A lot of the designs are ugly, especially the use of colors. Super has poor execution of character behavior. One of my biggest gripes being the ending of the future Trunks arc where everyone pretty much ignores how Trunks entire fucking timeline they nearly died for to protect got blown up with trying to make it a bittersweet or happy ending when it isn’t.

Whether the timing of the comedy is off or not is subjective, I could think the timing was perfect. Whether there's too much comedy or not is subjective, there's no objective metric that dictates how many jokes are ok per episode. Implementing comedy during dramatic moments can offset the tension and allow for some breathing room, there's nothing objectively bad about it. Whether the designs are ugly or not is subjective. Whatever "poor execution of character behavior" means is also subjective. They didn't ignore Trunks' timeline, Trunks acknowledged he failed at the end; so it comes down to you not liking that they didn't make a bigger deal out of it, which is a subjective criticism.

Now, I certainly agree with most of your criticisms here and I'm just playing devil's advocate, but do you realize what I mean? I can apply that excuse to defend anything. It's pointless for you to sit here and shut down every argument you're presented with "but that doesn't mean it's objectively bad."

Is Dragon Ball Minus objectively bad? No, nothing in art is "objectively bad," not even your little cousin's drawing in Paint. That's the entire point of art. That's why critics of the early-to-mid 20th century failed to find an objective formula to judge art and literature by. Not even "plot holes" are a metric to judge what "bad writing" is, as you keep implying, mostly because what constitutes a "plot hole" or not is vague and you can find a reason to excuse almost any inconsistency if you look far enough; that's why we constantly argue about what is a plot hole in this series and what isn't. But congrats, Dragon Ball Minus isn't objectively bad, just like EVERY other piece of art in existence.

Now, I'm allowed to think it's bad. And I'm allowed to present my reasoning as to why it's bad judging it on its own merits and how it affects the material it's a prequel to. And that's what I, and many others here, have done. Yet you keep ignoring it because you claim we're ignoring a "different perspective." No, we're not. We're taking into account how this "different perspective" fits into the original story and, in our opinion, it fits in quite poorly, because it adds nothing to the subtext of the Saiyan arc and only takes away what made it so compelling. Now if you want to continue having a discussion, then you'll try to present your arguments as to why this isn't this case, rather than say that it's just a different perspective, thus Minus isn't objectively bad. Otherwise, this is a, quite literally, fruitless discussion, because you could replace "Dragon Ball Minus" in the title with anything else and your arguments would hold just about as much weight.

[Master Xar]

1.) yes, but again that’s still subjective.

Dude, look, I don't want to be mean here, but you're in way over your head. Everything is subjective when it comes to storytelling. You're defending a piece of art. You are being subjective. Your statement "Dragon Ball Minus is not bad" is a subjective statement. This is such a meaningless argument because you can apply it to anything. I could pick apart any criticism you have about anything in existence and shut it down with "Well, that's your opinion, it's not objectively bad." That is actively harmful to discussion because you're not engaging in debate. Here, I'll do with your GT and Super criticisms last page:

From the perspective I have on Dragonball GT and Super it does things in execution of things badly. GT in the first arc tries to emulate Dragonball comedy with very off-timing, overuse, using it when the characters on a very serious time limit of the Earth being blown up. A lot of the designs are ugly, especially the use of colors. Super has poor execution of character behavior. One of my biggest gripes being the ending of the future Trunks arc where everyone pretty much ignores how Trunks entire fucking timeline they nearly died for to protect got blown up with trying to make it a bittersweet or happy ending when it isn’t.

Whether the timing of the comedy is off or not is subjective, I could think the timing was perfect. Whether there's too much comedy or not is subjective, there's no objective metric that dictates how many jokes are ok per episode. Implementing comedy during dramatic moments can offset the tension and allow for some breathing room, there's nothing objectively bad about it. Whether the designs are ugly or not is subjective. Whatever "poor execution of character behavior" means is also subjective. They didn't ignore Trunks' timeline, Trunks acknowledged he failed at the end; so it comes down to you not liking that they didn't make a bigger deal out of it, which is a subjective criticism.

Now, I certainly agree with most of your criticisms here and I'm just playing devil's advocate, but do you realize what I mean? I can apply that excuse to defend anything. It's pointless for you to sit here and shut down every argument you're presented with "but that doesn't mean it's objectively bad."

Is Dragon Ball Minus objectively bad? No, nothing in art is "objectively bad," not even your little cousin's drawing in Paint. That's the entire point of art. That's why critics of the early-to-mid 20th century failed to find an objective formula to judge art and literature by. Not even "plot holes" are a metric to judge what "bad writing" is, as you keep implying, mostly because what constitutes a "plot hole" or not is vague and you can find a reason to excuse almost any inconsistency if you look far enough; that's why we constantly argue about what is a plot hole in this series and what isn't. But congrats, Dragon Ball Minus isn't objectively bad, just like EVERY other piece of art in existence.

Now, I'm allowed to think it's bad. And I'm allowed to present my reasoning as to why it's bad judging it on its own merits and how it affects the material it's a prequel to. And that's what I, and many others here, have done. Yet you keep ignoring it because you claim we're ignoring a "different perspective." No, we're not. We're taking into account how this "different perspective" fits into the original story and, in our opinion, it fits in quite poorly, because it adds nothing to the subtext of the Saiyan arc and only takes away what made it so compelling. Now if you want to continue having a discussion, then you'll try to present your arguments as to why this isn't this case, rather than say that it's just a different perspective, thus Minus isn't objectively bad. Otherwise, this is a, quite literally, fruitless discussion, because you could replace "Dragon Ball Minus" in the title with anything else and your arguments would hold just about as much weight.

1.) Yes. And that is my goal here. That plenty of people were very open and shut on the idea of what makes something work and what doesn’t. That anything “bad” from Dragonball in some form is somehow a fault of the writers, and being a bad writer. Or the naive idea that every piece of media from a franchise should cater to their wants or needs from it. That storytelling has some form of science, or that it has a method outside of “show, don’t tell” and internal consistency. My point being here is that a lot of people still herald this story as “Why did Toriyama go with this in the first place? This is such bad writing...” etc. without actually knowing what “bad writing” is...

2.) and you are free to think that and so am I that is why a gave MY perspective and criticisms on GT and Super. My point here, again, is that yes you can and will offer your perspective on The Saiyan Saga and How the Bardock Special adds to that and DB- didn’t add to that, which again isn’t to say that it is bad. Change =/= bad.

And I feel I should clarify what I mean on “plotholes” being that I mean a direct contradiction of an explanation. For one TRUE internal inconsistency let’s look at the recent DB Super manga. Kale is said to be slow in SSJ Berserk against the pride trooper, who Goku in base form can contend with. Not a chapter ago Golden Freeza was completely blitzed by Kale in Berserker. That is an outright, logical contradiction of in universe logic of what is told in the story. It is objectively bad writing because it contradicts the story told.

You are compelled to the Saiyan Saga’s original take on the story and it’s narrative. You want DB- to add to that, but instead it offered new insight giving us a new idea on the story being told. You guys can tell me all you want that it is “bad” or ruins/negates the original narrative as to say it is bad storytelling when it isn’t, it’s just adding a new take on the story which again, since you guys don’t want to dive into any potential new themes or perspectives on The Saiyan Saga, it is clear that it is just a preference for the original. That “change” or challenging the narratives of the original story is a bad thing. When it...


Objectively Isn’t bad storytelling.

You offer your perspective and that’s good, but I’m here to inform on what storytelling is to people who are just blindly bandwagoning this hatedom and don’t have an opinion of their own. It is cool to hate on it, or people are too close-minded to give DB- the time of day.

Edit: And again I already gave my perspective on DB- changes to the original story in my reply to WittyUsername, give it a look.

[Gaffer Tape]

You offer your perspective and that’s good, but I’m here to inform on what storytelling is to people who are just blindly bandwagoning this hatedom and don’t have an opinion of their own. It is cool to hate on it, or people are too close-minded to give DB- the time of day.

So let me get this straight. Now, in addition to telling us, "It's not intended to be good; therefore, it isn't bad," you're also saying, "Think for yourselves. Therefore, conform to my opinion. Otherwise, you don't have an opinion of your own."

It may come across like we're being snarky to you. And I admit this conversation has left me extremely frustrated. But that's because you really, desperately need to take a step back and genuinely look at what you're saying. The only person in this thread whose opinion you haven't dismissed as invalid is the person who agrees with you. That is not encouraging people to have opinions of their own. That is not fighting against the bandwagon. In fact, it is the opposite. You are the one insisting people agree with you while refusing to engage with any other school of thought. You are the one who is being close-minded. You are the one demanding people jump onto your bandwagon. You are the one who is running this thread into a complete dead-end.

I love a good debate, but you are suffocating any chance that a debate could come from this. When nearly everyone in the thread is telling you the exact same thing, you have to consider for a moment that maybe, just maybe, you're the problem.

So I ask you... nay, I beg you, re-evaluate how you're engaging with us.

[Grimlock]

It’s still just there as a summary, summaries and a quick rush through the events isn’t necessarily good or bad writing as long as it keeps internal consistency.

You want me to see Dragon Ball Minus as a "summary" and that it presents quick rush through the events, right? Yeah, as I already said: that is exactly what makes Dragon Ball Minus bad. I don't want a "summary and a quick rush through the events" when it comes to the past of the Saiyans, I don't want a "no story" about that idea. I mean, the title of your thread says Dragon Ball Minus is not bad but here you are saying that just because Minus is what it is, it "isn't necessarily good or bad". So how are we supposed to say when something is good or bad? What criteria should we use?

Read the above on your last point. But again that’s all fine and good, but explanation of past event = / = good story, the main story is the focus, it can enhance it, but the main story is and should always be a main focus.

"Explanation" is just a branch of a greater scheme, obviously it's within the execution of a story. When I say I want a decent backstory, that includes more than just explanation and depending on the execution, it can be a good story to me. Because yes, "good story" is also subjective, a good story to me may not be a good story to others.

[Master Xar]

You offer your perspective and that’s good, but I’m here to inform on what storytelling is to people who are just blindly bandwagoning this hatedom and don’t have an opinion of their own. It is cool to hate on it, or people are too close-minded to give DB- the time of day.

So let me get this straight. Now, in addition to telling us, "It's not intended to be good; therefore, it isn't bad," you're also saying, "Think for yourselves. Therefore, conform to my opinion. Otherwise, you don't have an opinion of your own."

It may come across like we're being snarky to you. And I admit this conversation has left me extremely frustrated. But that's because you really, desperately need to take a step back and genuinely look at what you're saying. The only person in this thread whose opinion you haven't dismissed as invalid is the person who agrees with you. That is not encouraging people to have opinions of their own. That is not fighting against the bandwagon. In fact, it is the opposite. You are the one insisting people agree with you while refusing to engage with any other school of thought. You are the one who is being close-minded. You are the one demanding people jump onto your bandwagon. You are the one who is running this thread into a complete dead-end.

I love a good debate, but you are suffocating any chance that a debate could come from this. When nearly everyone in the thread is telling you the exact same thing, you have to consider for a moment that maybe, just maybe, you're the problem.

So I ask you... nay, I beg you, re-evaluate how you're engaging with us.

1.) once again you offer me nothing, but strawmans fallacies and putting words in my mouth. It isn’t meant to be a story or at least a big fleshed out one. That is it. It isn’t the main story (the story that truly needs fleshing out) it is the past and events that barely relate to how the main character is as a person developmentally (I mean besides hitting his head) and Vegeta who barely gave a shit if his people lived or died. Bardock. Is not important in the grand scheme of things, even in The Bardock Special, he contributes little to the main story past events are preferably left vague in storytelling because they are extra bits, pieces to a puzzle, they are best left that way. There is a reason they are called “backstories” they are in the background they are not needed.
Freeza isn’t a good villain because of he has a good backstory.
They CAN be expanded upon and made into good stories like in the Trunks and Bardock Specials, but again they are just that.
They are enhancers to a narrative or explain how current events happened they are not definitive to a good story, they aren’t a big part of the main plot, they don’t need to be expanded on, while I prefer the Bardock Special, I’m not going to dock the Saiyan Saga any points because DB- changes the narrative and shifts the paradigm. I’m not going to dock The Android Saga any points because Trunks: The Story is the base story Toriyama wrote for it. Not doing backstory or doing a lot of it is a stylistic choice from Akira Toriyama, he isn’t a worse writer for not doing so.

2.) what “opinion” am I trying to get anyone to conform to? That Dragon Ball Minus doesn’t shit in their cereal as much as they think? You keep trying to come up with these narratives to make me seem like I’m being “the bad guy” here when I’m just offering people look at how Minus changed the narrative of The Saiyan Saga and to be fair with how DB- changes that without holding a bias for the prior narrative. I’m showing people that storytelling is an art form, it doesn’t have it’s “own way” of working outside of basic structure and consistency.

Now how about you drop this whole “I’m forcing them to conform to my opinion” gambit
Stop trying to put this up to try to make yourself “the good guy” fighting against the “evil man” who offers that people should look at DB- and The Saiyan Saga in a new light and not simply hats or demerit either since they shift the current narrative around.

3.) I acknowledged shadowfox because he is being objective. He points out how DB- changes these things like the whole “Gine and Bardock are ‘special’” thing and offers to people how that is “bad” for the story. It is a hatedom to me because they all have the same opinion and idea on what the narrative is/was from the Bardock Special and The Saiyan Saga, and since DB- changes that they automatically think it is bad just because it changes the story.

[Master Xar]

It’s still just there as a summary, summaries and a quick rush through the events isn’t necessarily good or bad writing as long as it keeps internal consistency.

You want me to see Dragon Ball Minus as a "summary" and that it presents quick rush through the events, right? Yeah, as I already said: that is exactly what makes Dragon Ball Minus bad. I don't want a "summary and a quick rush through the events" when it comes to the past of the Saiyans, I don't want a "no story" about that idea. I mean, the title of your thread says Dragon Ball Minus is not bad but here you are saying that just because Minus is what it is, it "isn't necessarily good or bad". So how are we supposed to say when something is good or bad? What criteria should we use?

Read the above on your last point. But again that’s all fine and good, but explanation of past event = / = good story, the main story is the focus, it can enhance it, but the main story is and should always be a main focus.

"Explanation" is just a branch of a greater scheme, obviously it's within the execution of a story. When I say I want a decent backstory, that includes more than just explanation and depending on the execution, it can be a good story to me. Because yes, "good story" is also subjective, a good story to me may not be a good story to others.

1.) you may want that. But it is not needed. Backstory is not important to the main story in the grand scheme of things. It isn’t Toriyama’s style to give a long-winded or over-explained backstory. His focus is on the main story. And yes while the Bardock Special is a good story and serves as a good backstory to the narrative to Saiyan Saga Gaffer/Mistare and many came to interpret. Backstory is just an enhancer, or a way to explain things or events. They don’t “need” to be expanded on to make a story good, the main story is the story and that story is what needs to be good.

2.) Yes and while you want a decent backstory, it is not needed, central, or key to a story being good. The story itself is what makes it good.

[Captain-Sora]

3.) I acknowledged shadowfox because he is being objective. He points out how DB- changes these things like the whole “Gine and Bardock are ‘special’” thing and offers to people how that is “bad” for the story. It is a hatedom to me because they all have the same opinion and idea on what the narrative is/was from the Bardock Special and The Saiyan Saga, and since DB- changes that they automatically think it is bad just because it changes the story.

Change isn't always a problem, but when they're changes that undermine the original work, people are going to be upset. The elements introduced within the Saiyan arc and the themes they presented were also big changes that would alter how one would perceive Goku, but they managed to enhance the mythos of Dragon Ball. All Minus did was subtract from it, and revised Goku's origin to feel a lot more conventional.

[Master Xar]

3.) I acknowledged shadowfox because he is being objective. He points out how DB- changes these things like the whole “Gine and Bardock are ‘special’” thing and offers to people how that is “bad” for the story. It is a hatedom to me because they all have the same opinion and idea on what the narrative is/was from the Bardock Special and The Saiyan Saga, and since DB- changes that they automatically think it is bad just because it changes the story.

Change isn't always a problem, but when they're changes that undermine the original work, people are going to be upset. The elements introduced within the Saiyan arc and the themes they presented were also big changes that would alter how one would perceive Goku, but they managed to enhance the mythos of Dragon Ball. All Minus did was subtract from it, and revised Goku's origin to feel a lot more conventional.

Of course people are going to be upset. There is nothing wrong and I can see why people are upset, hell I used to be on the bandwagon that DB Minus sucks, but I gave it a fair chance by not comparing it to the Original special and getting the idea of “The Original is god” and under this question...

“If The Bardock Special truly did not exist would Minus be getting as much hate?”

And the simple question is no. It wouldn’t. Bias Isn’t always outright stated or obvious. It is shown here with the simple fact in The Bardock Special being compared to it since it is the Original and builds that narrative. There is nothing wrong with Minus not supporting the original take given from The Bardock Special or the narrative it supports in The Saiyan Saga that all the saiyans including his parents where completely evil assholes. It doesn’t have to do that or follow in the same footsteps nor should it.

If Toriyama’s take on The Bardock Special was the exact same in Minus, just to support the original narrative...

what would be the point in making it in the first place?

And that’s my point here. Change is not bad. And whether Mistare/Gaffer admits it or not. His actions give him away that he is not looking at Minus from an unbiased lens to call it “bad”, the second he started comparing The Bardock Special to Minus and saying the Minus had to be as fleshed out and complex shows one of two things.

1.) he holds the view that a Complex and Fleshed-out story is innately and objectively better than a short or simple story. Which is wrong.

2.) That the Original is better (which I agree with subjectively, but still) and that the Dragonball Minus story should be basically the exact same thing to support the Original and the narrative it serves for the sake of doing it... which would render making it in the first place absolutely pointless.

[Gaffer Tape]

And that’s my point here. Change is not bad. And whether Mistare/Gaffer admits it or not. His actions give him away that he is not looking at Minus from an unbiased lens to call it “bad”, the second he started comparing The Bardock Special to Minus and saying the Minus had to be as fleshed out and complex shows one of two things.

You don't have a point. You don't know how to debate. All you're saying, all you've ever said in this entire thread, is that anybody who disagrees with you is biased, and the only way to be "objective" is if they see Minus the way you do. That is not an argument. I don't like Dragon Ball Minus. I have explained why. I have encountered many people over the years who do like it, and while I don't agree with their points, at least they MAKE points! I've heard people say that they prefer Minus because it creates a new poignancy that Goku assumes his parents were evil, hating them, never understanding their sacrifice for him. That's a fair interpretation. One of my points against Minus is that I feel it makes Bardock too special by making him and Gine good-hearted aberrations, implying that Goku is the way he is because of his parents, which I find uninteresting. But I've heard people say they feel Bardock's clairvoyance in the special makes him feel too special, so they prefer him just figuring things out on his own. That's fair too. Now, I will debate them on those points, quite vociferously, in fact. What I won't do is tell them that their opinions are invalid, or that they're clearly not thinking for themselves, or that they're being unfairly biased against The Bardock Special for thinking that way. I certainly won't tell them they're not being objective. Because that's not what that word means. We're discussing opinions. As others have told you already, nothing here is objective.

And that's the difference between you and me. I disagree with people who like Dragon Ball Minus. But I've actually listened to them. You disagree that anybody should dislike Dragon Ball Minus. A debate can only work in good faith. I've told you my dislike of Dragon Ball Minus has nothing to do with my opinion of The Bardock Special, and I've explained why. That you won't even entertain that notion, not even give me the benefit of the doubt, means you're basically calling me a liar. I don't appreciate that. And there's no way to find common ground, no way to have a discussion, if you're going to handle other people in that way. As the administrator of this website has already told you in this thread, "You continue to cite 'the fandom'; there is no hivemind, there is no general consensus, and your own opinion is no more unique or special than that of anyone else responding to you. Everyone has different opinions and thoughts. Others seem willing to entertain yours; you do not seem to be willing to entertain theirs."

At this point, you're definitely going to "win" this debate, but only because you've succeeded in making everyone with a dissenting opinion throw up their arms in frustration and leave. So... congratulations...?

[Captain-Sora]

Problem is that Minus' biggest faults (beyond being not much of a story) are completely separate from the special. Had the TV Special not existed, people would still definitely take issue with the problematic aspects of the short. Goku's parents being rendered unusual compared to the rest of their kin for the sake of making them feel extraordinary, and undermining the themes of the Saiyan arc (which is obviously NOT the original Bardock story) are issues that would still remain.

The issue here is a lack of understanding WHY people don't like those things. It isn't simply because people hate retroactive continuity or that we're simply being anal about how Saiyans as a whole should behave (the idea of a softhearted Saiyan in itself isn't bad, it's just WHO was conveniently made to be one of the exceptions). It's about how we don't want Goku to be elevated on some pedestal where he was practically destined to be a good natured savior. Fiction (ESPECIALLY modern Shonen anime) is saturated with stories about how the main character is connected to these out of the norm and noteworthy people, giving the impression that them becoming the hero was "always meant to be." It's TIRESOME.

Goku had an already perfect origin that acts as a subversion to the Moses/Superman-esque beginnings. He was someone NOT meant for great things. He was someone intended to raze the world he grew up on. To Earth, he was intended to be one of its worst nightmares, and to Planet Vegeta, he was slated to grow up as a nobody. However, he was able to rise above those notions and outshined those who prided themselves over being part of a superior stock. Minus takes everything away from that by painting him as precious star child who was blessed enough to have a father who somehow knew better than all the rest, and a conveniently softhearted, loving mom. He was saved BECAUSE his family was different and special. That's just disheartening as hell and it utterly bulldozes the great developments presented in the Saiyan arc. NOT THE BARDOCK SPECIAL, the SAIYAN ARC.

[Bebi Hatchiyack]

I personally like a lot DB Minus and I'm glad that Toriyama gave us another glimps of the past of the Saiyan.

And I see no inconsistency with the og manga nor the anime if we take the kai version.

[Master Xar]

And that’s my point here. Change is not bad. And whether Mistare/Gaffer admits it or not. His actions give him away that he is not looking at Minus from an unbiased lens to call it “bad”, the second he started comparing The Bardock Special to Minus and saying the Minus had to be as fleshed out and complex shows one of two things.

You don't have a point. You don't know how to debate. All you're saying, all you've ever said in this entire thread, is that anybody who disagrees with you is biased, and the only way to be "objective" is if they see Minus the way you do. That is not an argument. I don't like Dragon Ball Minus. I have explained why. I have encountered many people over the years who do like it, and while I don't agree with their points, at least they MAKE points! I've heard people say that they prefer Minus because it creates a new poignancy that Goku assumes his parents were evil, hating them, never understanding their sacrifice for him. That's a fair interpretation. One of my points against Minus is that I feel it makes Bardock too special by making him and Gine good-hearted aberrations, implying that Goku is the way he is because of his parents, which I find uninteresting. But I've heard people say they feel Bardock's clairvoyance in the special makes him feel too special, so they prefer him just figuring things out on his own. That's fair too. Now, I will debate them on those points, quite vociferously, in fact. What I won't do is tell them that their opinions are invalid, or that they're clearly not thinking for themselves, or that they're being unfairly biased against The Bardock Special for thinking that way. I certainly won't tell them they're not being objective. Because that's not what that word means. We're discussing opinions. As others have told you already, nothing here is objective.

And that's the difference between you and me. I disagree with people who like Dragon Ball Minus. But I've actually listened to them. You disagree that anybody should dislike Dragon Ball Minus. A debate can only work in good faith. I've told you my dislike of Dragon Ball Minus has nothing to do with my opinion of The Bardock Special, and I've explained why. That you won't even entertain that notion, not even give me the benefit of the doubt, means you're basically calling me a liar. I don't appreciate that. And there's no way to find common ground, no way to have a discussion, if you're going to handle other people in that way. As the administrator of this website has already told you in this thread, "You continue to cite 'the fandom'; there is no hivemind, there is no general consensus, and your own opinion is no more unique or special than that of anyone else responding to you. Everyone has different opinions and thoughts. Others seem willing to entertain yours; you do not seem to be willing to entertain theirs."

At this point, you're definitely going to "win" this debate, but only because you've succeeded in making everyone with a dissenting opinion throw up their arms in frustration and leave. So... congratulations...?

No I’m judging the biases of people is, is that people here are judging people on what Minus should or should not be rather than what it is and what IT does for the Saiyan Arc rather than how it does “bad” for The Saiyan Arc and the themes they gathered from the Original Bardock Special... which is a bias. That theme or narrative they come up with in their head is at the end of the day their interpretation of the events unfolding should serve as a lesson or how it flows together. In your Original video judging Minus you go on about what it should be, and that Toriyama is a worse writer for it simply because he doesn’t expands on the backstory and keeps it simple.

Once again you keep Strawmanning my argument. You’re being quite disrespectful for this, but where in the ENTIRE thread did I say that ANYONE can or cannot like Minus? I’m simply offering the critique that Dragonball Minus doesn’t objectively take anything away, it ruins your interpretation of the themes and lessons of Minus and The Saiyan thus it is a “bad” story or “takes away” from the story in your own words.
You don’t care what Minus brings to the table to support any of the themes it builds from what it of the series or you simply don’t want to admit (at least before this message) that you simply don’t like it from a subjective standpoint, you cared that it wasn’t the same as The Bardock Special to support your idea of what is “meant” to be the theme and lessons. Which is to say that it ruins the point of making Minus in the first place if it was the same as the Bardock Special.

I have listened to why people disliked Minus, and they all sing the same tune without having an opinion or interpretation of their own. That the Original theme and interpretation is god and say Minus is bad and The Saiyan Saga is ruined like it is a fact .

I’m not offering a debate here. I’m informing on how storytelling actually works. That it is an art form, that people should have their own opinions or open their minds. Look for the themes or things DB Minus presents to the Original story rather than The Bardock Special and the themes built on that, simply because it came first.

And that is the difference between you and me here. You don’t want to admit when you are wrong (earlier in the thread you said the story was “dreck” when I was offering a objective standpoint) or don’t even remotely understand the point of view I’m presenting here which is to say neutral I DO NOT like Minus personally, I prefer the Bardock Special for my own reasons and prefer the themes mentioned. But I’m offering the idea of people giving Minus a fair chance with no comparisons or biases for the Original Bardock Special

Or you want to be on the moral high-ground simply because I’m challenging you and the other people in this thread’s opinion on Minus. I’m not here to “debate” from my opinions, but as neutral party, and the sooner you understand that and/or quit strawmanning me, the sooner we can have a discussion

[FortuneSSJ]

Dragon Ball Minus is garbage, because it contradicts the own original manga and what the fans have known about Goku's past for 20+ years.

Goku wasn't sent away when he was a baby, but when he was 3 years old:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

He wasn't sent away to conquer Earth because he was a low class, but because his parents wanted to protect him.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
It's trash and according to Superman fans it makes Goku's backstory even more similarly with Superman's. The only good thing about it is Gine but that doesn't make up for it, and overall it's just another unnecessary retcon from Toriyama after have been away for so long.