New-found love for the Freeza saga

gonz · Post by **gonz** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:49 pm

I was one of those people who always hated the Freeza saga years ago. I think it stems from the fact that, on Sunday mornings in the mid 90s, I had to deal with the Ocean dub dropping off right in the middle of the Ginyu fight and starting right over at Raditz. Then, once the Funimation dub picked up after the show hit Toonami, it was just dreadful dub episode after dreadful episode of Freeza's emasculate voice.

Over time, though, I think the Japanese Freeza episodes have aged better than the rest of the series- particularly over the Cell episodes. Realistically, the Freeza saga presents the logical bookend to the series, where the Cell saga attempts to create something new, with which it both fails and succeeds. Now, that's not a knock on the Cell saga- the stretch of episodes between Trunks popping Freeza and USSJ Trunks vs Stage 2 Cell is golden, but the same suspense just isn't there. The death of Android 16 just isn't a comparison to the death of millions of Nameks and Saiya-jins in addition to Bardock.

Anyone else in the same boat?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:55 pm

The Freeza saga in the manga is awesome. Great pacing, great art, epic-scale battles, etc.. The anime version is awesome too, so long as you know when and where to fast-forward.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:18 pm

gonz wrote:Anyone else in the same boat?

I've actually always counted the Freeza arc as my second least favorite part of the series overall, after the Saiyan arc. I don't like Freeza's endless supply of trump cards ("I can transform! I can tranform again! I'm actually only using way less than half of my full power! I can survive in the vacuum of space, apparently!"), or his lack of any real backstory. The uniform scenery of Planet Namek really gets to me after awhile. I don't like the constant use of the Saiyan near-death power-up; as a power-up it's cheap and boring, whereas all of the other power-ups are at most only one of those. The character designs for most of Freeza's men are my least favorite (I don't think they're terrible or anything, they just appeal to me the least). I find the legend of the Super Saiyan to be a cliche and dull plot device.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I hate the arc or anything. I enjoy it a lot, like I do all of DragonBall. It's just that I don't see what others see in it when they say it's the best arc of all.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:05 pm

Herms wrote:
gonz wrote:Anyone else in the same boat?
I've actually always counted the Freeza arc as my second least favorite part of the series overall, after the Saiyan arc. I don't like Freeza's endless supply of trump cards ("I can transform! I can tranform again! I'm actually only using way less than half of my full power! I can survive in the vacuum of space, apparently!"), or his lack of any real backstory. The uniform scenery of Planet Namek really gets to me after awhile. I don't like the constant use of the Saiyan near-death power-up; as a power-up it's cheap and boring, whereas all of the other power-ups are at most only one of those. The character designs for most of Freeza's men are my least favorite (I don't think they're terrible or anything, they just appeal to me the least). I find the legend of the Super Saiyan to be a cliche and dull plot device.

Aren't all of these things (or very close equivalents) recycled in Cell's story?

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:22 pm

No, Cell is awesome. SILENCE THY INSOLENT TONGUE.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:43 pm

I've been having fun reading the Freeza arc in the Manga lately and because it's been ages since I saw the Anime--not to mention I've only seen the dub--I don't have much a distate for the arc. I also enjoy all of these little tidbits I've been learning now that I'm old enough to appreciate the smaller things. I got pretty excited when I realize that Son only used a fifth of his power against Ginyu and still managed to terrify the guy (if his base is 90,000 and if he could use Kaiô-Ken to multiple his power ten fold then that'd mean he could hit a 900,000).

Freeza Heika · Post by **Freeza Heika** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:47 pm

The Freeza saga has always been my second favorite. Probably because I haven't watched it in depth since I was young enough for its faults not to matter.
Long Live Freeza!

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:49 pm

Freeza Saga.... So. Much. Purple! Its like they had a surplus of purple to get rid of so everything was PURPLE once Freeza started fighting.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:29 pm

Rocketman wrote:Aren't all of these things (or very close equivalents) recycled in Cell's story?

I'd say no.

Villian with endless supply of trump cards: Not really. Cell told all about his transformations from the start, and by the time he self-destructed it was already established that Gero's robots had bombs inside them. The only real out-of-nowhere trump card he has is his regeneration into his powered-up perfect form. No.17 does do that whole "Actually, I wasn't even at half my true power!" thing with Gohan in the alternate future, but neither he nor Cell can compete with Freeza for sheer number of "I'm not really left-handed!" moments. Of course, instead of a stream of trump cards we get a stream of trump villians, but I think it was handled pretty well, a lot better than Freeza just up and deciding he's really way more powerful or that he can survive in space.

Villian with lack of real backstory: We know pretty much Cell's whole lifestory. We've got Gero's backstory as the scientist from the Red Ribbon Army, and we know how all the other androids were made by him. We don't know too much about No.17 and No.18's past though, but we at least know why they're androids. With Freeza, we don't know anything about where he originally came from or why he's a gazillion times more powerful than anyone else. We do get the whole backstory with him and the Saiyans, but even there he's already the same person he is the present.

Uniform scenery: I think we get a good variety of scenery in the Cell arc (the road where the androids are fought, the northern mountains where Gero's lab is, the islands where Piccolo and No.17 fight, the Cell Games arena, New Planet Namek, the various cities, the Room of Spirit and Time, Trunks' ruined future), though admittedaly a few too many of those barren wastelands so common in DragonBall (Freeza's landing spot, spot where they fight No.19, the Cell Games arena later on).

Cheap and boring power-up: Well, I find all the various new forms of Super Saiyan to be at least visually interesting. And all the characters have to do some amount of training to achieve them, so it's not horribly cheap. I thought the Room of Spirit and Time was cheap but a very cool idea, and Piccolo's merge with Kami was cheap in that it was an instant power-up, but had a heavy price in other ways (no more Kami, they need to get somebody to make new dragonballs, Piccolo's personality changes afterwards).

Character designs that are my least favorite: I admit this was an extremely subjective criticism, but there's something I just like more in the character designs for the Cell and Buu-era characters. Though Freeza's final form is one of my favorite character designs, but then he goes and wrecks it by getting all bulky. Blah.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:34 pm

The bulky form is the one I liked. For some reason he looks even more evil that way.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:57 pm

I liked the Cell Saga right up until Cell actually gets perfect, then the quality, I think, drops like a rock. Cell himself remains awesome, but everything else...

Zuhalter2000 · Post by **Zuhalter2000** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:45 pm

Frieze Saga has been one of my favorites because of the 3 team scramble for the Dragonballs and the confusion that insues. I loved how the Nakekian wishes we used ever so cleverely. I also really enjoyed the fights. On Namek has been the only time I oculd stand Vegeta. I liked him as the almost "Neutral" Vegeta (I know he is still very bad at this point but compared to Frieze hes not too bad).

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:49 pm

The Freeza Saga was great but it's just so damn long ! I mean it took long enough to get the actual boss fight and then he finally throws the Genki Dama and I'm like "Great it's finally over!'' but nope Freeza comes back and Goku turns Super Saiyan and the fight goes on even longer !

Vekurotto · Post by **Vekurotto** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:21 pm

The Freeza arc was possibly the best arc in all of Dragon Ball. Nothing was ever as good to me afterward even though I still like the things post Freeza like Cell and Boo. But it won me over when I watched the DB and Z anime months ago from beginning to end.

About the length that people complain about. I know when I watched the Freeza saga I pretty much watched 15 episodes a day. I found it that good and stopping seemed pretty stupid to me. What I found out was that if you've got access to the whole thing, (ala season 3, or the singles, or whatever you've got), then you should watch a large amount of it rather than a few episodes. The length annoyed me, when it was on toonami, but when I viewed it at my own pace it wasn't bad at all.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:24 pm

Thanos6 wrote:I liked the Cell Saga right up until Cell actually gets perfect, then the quality, I think, drops like a rock. Cell himself remains awesome, but everything else...

Agreed. From the point of Freeza's reappearance up until Cell announces the Cell Games, everything was an absolute thrill ride. The actual final confrontation at the Cell Games felt extremely bland to me to say the least; it's only saving grace was the whole Super Saiyan 2 transformation I'd say. Even then, it wasn't much compared to Goku's Super Saiyan transformation imo.

The Freeza arc in manga form is an absolute thrill to read; the anime version..not so much. The pace of the entire Namek/Freeza arc was absolutely dulled to hell in the anime.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:27 pm

My favorite fight was Goku VS Cell.

Hmm... I'm starting off my friend on DBZ, incidentally, and was wondering where to throw him in. Traditionally with my friends I've just grabbed 17 VS Piccolo, popped it in and let them piece it together as I explained various parts, enough so they could tell what was going on. And it's always worked, but now I have the Season One boxset so I can actually show it from the beginning.

The only problem is that most people I see around here and other places who started off in the beginning love it up to the Freeza Saga but actually end up hating the show after that. So maybe starting with Cell is better after all, even though it's out of order. That way they're already hooked and have to go back to the older parts anyway.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:42 pm

Snail wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:I liked the Cell Saga right up until Cell actually gets perfect, then the quality, I think, drops like a rock. Cell himself remains awesome, but everything else...
Agreed. From the point of Freeza's reappearance up until Cell announces the Cell Games, everything was an absolute thrill ride. The actual final confrontation at the Cell Games felt extremely bland to me to say the least; it's only saving grace was the whole Super Saiyan 2 transformation I'd say. Even then, it wasn't much compared to Goku's Super Saiyan transformation imo.

The Freeza arc in manga form is an absolute thrill to read; the anime version..not so much. The pace of the entire Namek/Freeza arc was absolutely dulled to hell in the anime.

Agreed, but I really didn't care for the SS2. Cell-saga Gohan really really annoys me, one of my least favorite character eras of the entire show.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:48 pm

Gohan - " You've been rummaging around the planet killing countless victims. Pure murder! But what the hey, I don't want to fight, let's be friends and have cheese and crackers at my house. "

Cell -

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:11 am

Snail wrote:Gohan - " You've been rummaging around the planet killing countless victims. Pure murder! But what the hey, I don't want to fight, let's be friends and have cheese and crackers at my house. "

Cell -

Basically. He's such a whiny little, out-of-left-field pacifist (I have no problems with heroes who have trouble killing; but some guys, you just have to). Where was this attitude against the Saiyans or on Namek? Hell, or even just a few days ago?

And to top it off, such an unlikable little punk given the "supreme power" over a lot of characters who are infinitely more likable.

Thankfully, he got a lot better when Buu rolled around.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:18 am

Thanos6 wrote:
Snail wrote:Gohan - " You've been rummaging around the planet killing countless victims. Pure murder! But what the hey, I don't want to fight, let's be friends and have cheese and crackers at my house. "

Cell -
Basically. He's such a whiny little, out-of-left-field pacifist (I have no problems with heroes who have trouble killing; but some guys, you just have to). Where was this attitude against the Saiyans or on Namek? Hell, or even just a few days ago?

And to top it off, such an unlikable little punk given the "supreme power" over a lot of characters who are infinitely more likable.

Thankfully, he got a lot better when Buu rolled around.

A lot can change when you haven't gotten in a real fight in a few years.

Kanzenshuu

New-found love for the Freeza saga

New-found love for the Freeza saga

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